What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

"I'd rather make it make sense", precisely, it's a bit sad to have to do that however.

Though, I still don't find the echo as a necessity to explain everything again. It sure would be an absolute way to prove it, but there were many other elements and witnesses to rely on.
It does feel she intended to avoid contact with them and possibly also went on the run, at least to find and gather her "trusted" people.

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The thing is though that she probably shouldn't have been "on the run" to begin with if that was indeed the case. Everything we saw indicated that she was highly respected by her peers, though they did seem to think she was a little too worldly by their standards. Either way it wouldn't have been difficult to for her to make her case to the Convocation. It sort of comes down to SE writing themselves into a corner. If she had been able to change the course of their history, our characters and the world we know would cease to exist. Kinda hard to do that in an MMORPG when our characters and the game world sorta need to continue existing.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

The thing is though that she probably shouldn't have been "on the run" to begin with if that was indeed the case. Everything we saw indicated that she was highly respected by her peers, though they did seem to think she was a little too worldly by their standards. Either way it wouldn't have been difficult to for her to make her case to the Convocation.

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Yeah I'm very aware of this and even said it in many of my replies.

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

We can see in Elpis how revered she is by the ancients (even Emet-Selch, you can see that if you talk to him between quests though I don't remember which ones). Honestly she's what's the closest to what royalty would be if such a thing existed in ancient times. Sure, that manifests as an ancient telling her to go and die, but dying peacefully is the highest reward according to them and proof of a fulfilled life.
Anyway, added to this we know that people in the area were aware of the WoL's presence who took the identity of "Azem's familiar".
Then when also taking into account that Venat, Azem, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus seemed to actually be very close, and that the two latter knew something happened to their memory after Ktisis.
Taking all this into account, how we get to the conclusion that it's better to not try to retell the story as it really happened is hard to take at face value. The whole decision screams lack of faith from Venat in her friends and the ancients in general. Because again, they wouldn't have simply dismissed Venat's words considering the way she was viewed.

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Also think they did write themselves in a corner. The way it ended up looking, in order to avoid making the game not needing to exist, is her lacking trust in her fellow ancients.

But her dialogue I meant, felt she implied she would avoid the Convocation while trying to find people. Not saying it's what she should've done, just what it seems she did for reasons.

It's unlikely that Venat went on the run based on her decision to reach out to both the Convocation and Azem in order to express concerns regarding Zodiark which was shown briefly during the delve into the remnants of Anamnesis Anyder.

As of Endwalker, we also know that Venat was simply feigning concern over Zodiark and that it was actually an effective plan that would keep the Final Days at bay for a very long time. Quite simply, Venat didn't try to be truthful or even inform her people of what was happening behind the scenes - nor was it ever reasonable for the Ancients to ever believe of their own accord that an unhinged bird-girl had flown into space to slowly kill any planet with life left on it.

The main reason it doesn't make sense is because the writers decided to tie Venat directly and indirectly to pretty much every bad thing that has ever happened in the story...which robs not only Venat of any real agency but pretty much every other character as well.

Her dialogue in Elpis expressed that she would avoid bringing the subject with Convocation members so it felt like she avoided them at first and did things on her own. At a later point, around the time of Zodiark's summoning she made contact with the Convocation to stop them from sacrificing half of the replenished life to bring back the first batch of sacrificed.
Also, the ancients were masters of creation magic, pretty much anything could be created from it so it's not so unreasonable especially if someone such as the revered Venat was to say it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

nor was it ever reasonable for the Ancients to ever believe of their own accord that an unhinged bird-girl had flown into space to slowly kill any planet with life left on it.

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Have to disagree with this part. No reason why she couldn't have used one of the many methods the Ancients have shown for reviewing memories. Very likely that they would not have believed her if she just told them without providing evidence but there were ways of getting said evidence.

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Originally Posted by Kyohei

Her dialogue in Elpis expressed that she would avoid bringing the subject with Convocation members so it felt like she avoided them at first and did things on her own. At a later point, around the time of Zodiark's summoning she made contact with the Convocation to stop them from sacrificing half of the replenished life to bring back the first batch of sacrificed.
Also, the ancients were masters of creation magic, pretty much anything could be created from it so it's not so unreasonable especially if someone such as the revered Venat was to say it.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Have to disagree with this part. No reason why she couldn't have used one of the many methods the Ancients have shown for reviewing memories. Very likely that they would not have believed her if she just told them without providing evidence but there were ways of getting said evidence.

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To be clear, by 'their own accord' I'm referring to them coming to the conclusion of Meteion's existence on their own. Venat should have told them what was coming to forewarn them, though she did not do that and instead left them scrambling about in a desperate effort to try and figure out why the Final Days were happening.

Then when they found a solution to the problems that the Final Days brought about, she decided to blame them for not finding the 'right one' and resorted to the Sundering. All without giving them any explanation.

In the end, it seems that the writers decided that the Sundering needed to happen no matter what, though they were probably hoping more people would just go along with all the cool, flashy cutscenes and not think on the implications of what the context and consequences actually entailed.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It sort of comes down to SE writing themselves into a corner. If she had been able to change the course of their history, our characters and the world we know would cease to exist. Kinda hard to do that in an MMORPG when our characters and the game world sorta need to continue existing.

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They wrote themselves into a corner by not wiping her memory alongside the others. We should have fled alone with Argos and she stayed behind to (perhaps deliberately) forget what she had been told of the future. It wouldn't make it any less likely to happen, but she would do it for more immediate logical reasons.

Ah gotcha, wasn't sure if that was what you meant and yes, definitely agree. No one was going to come to that conclusion on their own.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be clear, by 'their own accord' I'm referring to them coming to the conclusion of Meteion's existence on their own. Venat should have told them what was coming to forewarn them, though she did not do that and instead left them scrambling about in a desperate effort to try and figure out why the Final Days were happening.

Then when they found a solution to the problems that the Final Days brought about, she decided to blame them for not finding the 'right one' and resorted to the Sundering. All without giving them any explanation.

In the end, it seems that the writers decided that the Sundering needed to happen no matter what, though they were probably hoping more people would just go along with all the cool, flashy cutscenes and not think on the implications of what the context and consequences actually entailed.

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Ohh, sorry didn't read it that way. Then we're on agreement in the end.
The sundering needed to happen no matter what for the simple reason Vahlnir cited, in a purely "technical" view. The moment we got to know the present world was sundered in ShB sealed the fate of the game in the sundered state. Except the reasons it happened don't make much sense when looking closely with a logical approach.
Again, I'm putting this on the lack of overview and preparation from the writers.

They could have made a branching timeline however, in which Venat takes a more logical course of action, but maybe that's what we'll see in the additional story.

Honestly, I think it would been better if the Ancient World was a lot more like Numenor from LotR. An Ancient nation that was the peak of Men, with wonders and might the world had not seen since then, with following nations not even coming close to its splendor. However, its people grew arrogant, vain and prideful, leading to discard the old ways and spit on old friendships. Eventually they tried to invade Aman and the Undying Lands, leading to Eru to make the World round, leading the sinking of Numenor beneath the ocean.

If the Ancient had been more like that, making them brush other concerns under their notice, if they only had a purpose of making the world better only for themselves, it might of been easier to understand Venat but sadly they didn't go that route.