I have not done side quests, but even in msq I did not get a feeling that Ancients were "inhuman". They were more human than some humans... Elpis flower just showed that most of them were content with their lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
It also was quite unbelievable that Ancients would end up like the Plenty.
I was also taken by emotions while doing msq, but now I get more and more disappointed in how they solved sundering...
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03-24-2022, 04:43 PMErendis
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03-24-2022, 10:12 PMTheodric
The Ancients never intended to sacrifice more than a portion of the 'new life' to Zodiark in order to restore their loved ones and that was to ensure that their loved ones would not be stuck inside of Zodiark for all of eternity. Which is a pretty reasonable desire.
Let's also not forget that the only reason Zodiark came to be in the first place is due to Venat standing by idly as the apocalypse in the form of the Final Days approached. Zodiark was a necessity to restore Etheirys and prevent it from being destroyed, for if there was no Zodiark there would be no Etheirys.
It was never a reasonable expectation for the Ancients to just roll over and accept their own genocide based on a flawed 'test' that they had no idea they were being forced to take part in. -
03-25-2022, 01:42 AMPawPawI think I worded this lazily, hmmm, I'll try again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis
Agreed that many of the people of Elpis felt more human to me than the people of Eorzea. I was sure I wasn't going to meet any Lominsan sex slavers there, that's for certain. I think that the writers tried to make the Ancients seem much more flawed than they were through the MSQ. By implying that no one was willing to let Hermes be sad or even that having to put down arcane entities was somehow inhumane, thus attempting to show that they had no empathy. And a lot of people bought into it. I see these being parroted as prime examples of why their society was doomed to failure all the time. Because using a butterfly to make a robe is heinous even though almost everyone has worn leather and animal products at some point in their lives (and arcane entities are just aether), and destroying rabid arcane entities is "having no respect for any life other than human". They were content as a people, yes, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The Elpis flowers always being white is not a bad thing, but somehow the MSQ tries to make you feel as though this is an aberration. It subtly pushes the idea that everyone not being sad or in a state of constant emotional flux is unnatural. That the Elpis flower not changing colors 150 times a day means that no one has feelings except for Hermes, that they were just robots.
Meanwhile, in doing the side quests you find that there were other people who felt complex feelings (even sadness!) for their creations and no doubt would have shared all of this with Hermes had Hermes actually tried stepping out of his own head and talking to the people around him once in a while. The side quests also show you that the Ancients, while structured, were also open to new ideas and to implementing changes when they saw the merit in a new idea. No one was stopping anyone from having negative feelings, they just didn't seem to have a system in place the way we would for expressing and working through those feelings when they did have them. But there also isn't any reason to believe that they wouldn't have been open to exploring new ways of helping with that either.
This is more what I mean when I say there is a disconnect. the funeral quest alone made me tear up because I was happy to have been able to share something new with them and see how excited they were to use it in the future, only to remember that these people would be killed soon, there was no future. While the MSQ wants me to believe that because Elpis is "paradise" that it must have a seedy, putrid underbelly and all of the Ancients' society is headed for self-destruction because they are too content and unwilling/unable to change. -
03-25-2022, 02:35 AMSpectrePhantasia
I feel like in the progression from Shadowbringers to Endwalker the writers tried to change the Ancients to fit this mold for their themes that just doesn't work because that's never really what they were. The Ancients weren't Eulmore, they were never shown to be these complacent bliss-chasing fools who knew no difficulty in their lives. They never appeared to lack empathy or be selfish, rather their selflessness was their defining trait.
Their society was just simply better, and that's where the whole conflict in Shadowbringers stemmed from. That's why Alphinaud was stunned silent a moment when Emet asked him if half the Sundered could ever be so noble and act with the intent to save those they loved, because he knew they wouldn't. The Ancients' worth was never put into question, rather it was whether or not it was worth purging all that was birthed from their tragedy to bring them back. Obviously the answer the Scions provided was no, but I think the narrative successfully conveyed that was THEIR answer, not THE answer. It was that proclaimed 'matter of perspective' that made the conflict so compelling and impactful in the first place. It's what made Emet-selch so sympathetic.
To then completely 180 on that and try to imply that the Ancients were doomed from the start and there was no way they ever could have survived due to this contrived unwillingness to change, well it left a very bad taste in my mouth. "Humanity wins because humanity" is a very tired message and given the scope of the world we have here, it felt pretty self-serving. Some of that nuance I loved so much was sadly diminished. -
03-25-2022, 03:00 AMTheodric
To be fair, Eulmore was in itself an unfair caricature simimlar to the nonsense peddled in the Dead Ends. There was no feasible way for the people of Eulmore to know that a hero from another planet was going to show up and put an end to the Sin Eater threat once and for all.
This game has an unpleasant trend of blaming the victims of awful circumstances whilst praising those who have every advantage as 'heroes' when they barely endure any similar or meaningful struggles in their own lives by comparison. I don't know what changed, exactly, though ever since Heavensward ended the game has embraced a very whiny, preachy style of storytelling that insists on condemning people for adapting to horrible events and doing whatever is necessary in order to protect or avenge their loved ones.
I suppose, if nothing else, it's very telling that the more nuanced expansions in the form of Heavensward and Shadowbringers are much less controversial than Stormblood and Endwalker which took a brute force approach. -
03-25-2022, 03:28 AMPawPawDidn't the Player Character use/wield/shift Dynamis when they fought Endsinger? Pretty sure she's actually very surprised we can, and we manage it perfectly even though we're 9/14ths. Also, why do you assume the rest are not multiple times rejoined? I've seen so many conflicting answers to this question online with people claiming that EVERYONE on the Source is now 8 times rejoined and others saying that only those with the Echo, who are presumably the ones with the souls of the murdered Ancients are 8 times rejoined and that everyone else just has a new soul. What is the correct answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Angellos
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03-25-2022, 03:31 AMLauront
I think the quest where you tour the facility and get to respond that you see them as gods, not too different to you or inscrutable is probably the best way to describe them. They clearly had strong human elements to them, including in their affections and emotions, but at the same time they're similar to beings like elder dragons in that they're nigh immortal and possess great natural talents and powers, including that to contribute to creation through their very imaginations. The important thing here is that they're not trying to cast them as lacking in fundamental human traits, like emotions, various anxieties, aspirations, etc. Their common societal goal does not strip them of individual goals and motivations.
The correct answer is that it's everyone on the Source. See question 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
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03-25-2022, 03:37 AMPawPawThanks for this, so this means that all of the Scions are 8/14ths except for G'raha (and us, of course) who is 9/14ths, yes? So much for needing all that thinning out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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03-25-2022, 03:43 AMLaurontQuote:
Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia
Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
Very well said to all three of these posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
It's interesting, in SHB Emet even states their palette of emotions may be broader than that of the sundered:
Quote:
[16:00] Emet-Selch : Allons... Pensais-tu que nous autres Asciens étions incapables d'avoir des sentiments ?
= “Come now… Did you really think us Ascians were incapable of having these sentiments?”
[16:00] Emet-Selch : Je suis vexé ! Notre palette d'émotions est aussi riche que la vôtre, si ce n'est plus !
= “I am vexed! Our palette of emotions is just as rich as yours, if not more!”
Yup. The Rejoinings restore the star to its pre-sundering state. We've learnt two things since EW - 1) souls are persistent and don't get sliced and diced in the Aetherial Sea, rather they're reborn and carry with them some innate propensities and 2) the sundered races were the direct result of the sundering of the remaining ancients on the Source. I suspect the star will have 'forged' some new souls since then but we need to bear in mind that the entire star is being reinforced with its original aether, so those souls will also be denser and denser as time progresses.Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
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03-25-2022, 04:01 AMIxonThis is just the theme to Jet Li's "The One". That would have been an interesting take, someone who knew of the sundering, and was for the rejoining for personal power gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront