Can we have an honest conversation about the Scions? Dawn Trail

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Welcome to MMORPGs! Persistent worlds, with continuing characters are part of the plan. It took WoW nearly 20 years to finally sideline one of its major characters (she's gone, right? not just 'redeemed'?)

In an MMORPG, you get introduced to new characters every expansion. Some stick around forever, some are gone after only, what, three expansions (*cough*Zenos*cough*). In other cases, you'll run into the same NPCs, with the same questlines for eternity [New game+ anyone?].

---

A decent amount of XIV players originally came from XI, which typically didn't bring any characters into expansions and mostly introduced new characters in new lands that are only part of that expansion's story. You'd occasionally get stuff like Shantotto showing up at the Shararat Teahouse in a patch but she didn't stick around.

Going to the new world especially seemed like a great time to bench some Scions, even if only temporarily.

I like the scions - I really understand all the arguments to keep them around because they're old, familiar and feel like friends. It would be weird to just say goodbye to your friends like that.
Here's the thing though, most of the time friends aren't constantly up in your business. For some of us, a friendship is maintained by a small chat every few months. Others require more. The nice part about *real life* friendships is that people continue to talk to one another about things they got to do when you're not around.

In terms of a written narrative, until the blanks are filled in, a character is effectively frozen in time until they talk about things that happened between their two interactions. And we don't get the option to just say "hey man, how's life been? How is the wife/kids/cats", we just kinda have to accept whatever is given to us, which ultimately tends to not include this.

Final Fantasy XIV is incredibly bad about letting time pass, having gone several month-long boat rides but nobody ever ages. I think this is why Shadowbringers worked really well, since the story team was allowed to write off several years of off-screen passage of time with effectively no repercussion whatsoever. All the characters involved with this effectively had a characterization growth spurt from what they ended off on during Stormblood. This pays off dividends in Endwalker, but Endwalker does cap this off.
The problem now is that if they're all coming to Tural with us in some way, these few days we're about to spend with them isn't going to be nearly enough to start a new character arc for these characters within the confines of 7.0 *and* actually do something meaningful *while* keeping the Scions on the same page at the end of 7.0 (or even 7.3) without it feeling cheap. That's the unfortunate thing about a formulaic story - we pretty much already know how this is going to go. It's just another FFXIV expansion; there will be two major conflicts to resolve, one of which bookends at 7.0 and the other at 7.3, then we might recruit a new person into our permanent circle of friends and start setting up in 7.4 for whatever comes after this.

There's also the fact that, this being a game with certain rules, some characters (G'raha Tia, Estinien, Alisaie and Krile) have effective immortality because they're required to stay alive to be part of side content.
G'raha had his immortality removed after Crystal Tower was no longer side content, but is now once again immortal due to being involved with Myths of the Realm.
Estinien is immortal because he's involved with the DRG storyline and he can never actually be fully removed.
Krile is immortal due to involvement in Eureka.
Alisaie is immortal due to Coils.

Even without considering popularity armor, this makes it difficult to be invested in their placement in action settings, because they can never truly be in mortal peril. Estinien specifically does flirt with the idea all the way back in Heavensward, but nothing more than that.


On a similar note, the characters are far too similar to one another as it is - especially Y'shtola and G'raha, who basically have the same role at this point - exposition dumping with a side of quotable / relatable haha moments that will make people clap. Their character arcs are complete, and it feels like whatever is left for Y'shtola simply will not go resolved, since it treads too closely to a romance plot and we simply cannot have that to keep the shippers happy. It's hard for me to consider them friends at this point because I'm far too aware of the rules of their existence.

Even if I'm excited to finally see more of Krile because that's who I wanted to hang out with from frame 1 she appears on the screen to begin with, and I barely ever got the option to do so. She seems cool :)

On a far more personal sidenote, I'm honestly intrigued at the people saying "do you just replace your friends every 10 years" because... like... do you not?? You don't ever just fall out of contact, or just end up growing in different ways so hard that you eventually just don't really vibe with people anymore? A few notable examples aside, I've gone through several groups just in the span of my Final Fantasy XIV journey alone. It's far more normal to "replace" your friends over time than it is to be hanging out with the same people for 50 years. Just the perspective of an older person.

Overall though, I'm personally not that bothered on the amount of scions that are coming with us for the wrong reason of Dawntrail itself feeling like it's probably not going to be anything major in terms of story. And that's okay. I kinda don't need another new ancient big bad to contend with right now. I'll be happy if Dawntrail is just good on content - and lots of it. I do think the FFXIV writers need to start figuring out who they want to keep and who they want to cut from a major role, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that's what they're going to be gauging with 7.0's response and implement the feedback in 8.0. Or maybe that's just copium :)

Yeah totally agree. I just caught up with the msq in the last couple of weeks and when i got to the cutscene where the scions disbanded, i was so excited hoping to see and meet and work with a new cast. and then the next sentence arrived and i just rolled my eyes so hard.
if like 90 percent of the scions died suddenly i would not bat and eye lol. the only person i care about is estinien

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayalu

I didnt meant a huge time skip. Maybe a 2 years enough to for the twins to get a growth spurt and some time passing.
Outside of the twins i doubt anyone actualy would change visibly within the scions. :)

---

time skip would be nice

The main scions were absent for the majority of HW and
a. the woL not instantaneously fall into a ditch and die
b. the wol managed to made new friends that eventually got to join the Scions
c. the few scions we did keep got character development

I'd like that again. Make the bulk of them busy with something or another, keep 1 or 2 of them around to be our "party", introduce new characters and let us all grow on an adventure together. Estinien is a fun character and way back when 3.3 ended we already had people hoping he would join the scions because he was allowed to have a satisfying arc as a party member.

We'll have to see how 7.0 plays out. to start with, we have Krile and the twins with us. The twins have gotten plenty of exposure but this is Krile's debut as a 'party member.'

Ysthtola and Graha will likely end up on the new world as indicated by the trailer but we don't know what for. Estinien is there but doing his own thing and may not be hanging around the whole time. Thancred and Urianger are siding with a different candidate. While we have new character Wuk Lamat and long overdue for spotlight Krile with us. I don't know if he'll end up being a trust or not but Erenvald is getting a big role too.

We don't really know yet if we're going to have all the scions around a lot this expansion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kajv95

There's also the fact that, this being a game with certain rules, some characters (G'raha Tia, Estinien, Alisaie and Krile) have effective immortality because they're required to stay alive to be part of side content.
G'raha had his immortality removed after Crystal Tower was no longer side content, but is now once again immortal due to being involved with Myths of the Realm.
Estinien is immortal because he's involved with the DRG storyline and he can never actually be fully removed.
Krile is immortal due to involvement in Eureka.
Alisaie is immortal due to Coils.

---

Side content is widely understood to exist within time bubbles. If they didn't, the Estinien we meet in the DRG job quests, for example, would have to account for all other quest progress we may or may not have completed at the time -- but that's not how those job quests, or any side quests, work. If any of these characters have plot armor, it's not because they exist outside the MSQ; the producers/writers just don't want to kill them right now lol. They're immortal only in the sense that, yes, a past iteration of those characters will always exist in the context of their respective side content, but that's true anyway. Look at Urianger: 2.0 Edition hanging out at the Waking Sands.

I like how having a main cast of characters makes the MSQ feel like a cohesive story, such as seen in other non-MMORPG Final Fantasy titles.

honestly im sick of the scions, and im really sick of y'shtola being ass pulled back alive and stronger than before constantly after the end of endwalker I have no respect for the story writing with scions always making their deaths irrelevent after hw ended

Assuming this isn't just bait (I think it is), the issue is that if you just throw characters in/out entirely or drastically age characters, like another MMO, then it can effect the story in a poor way (like another MMO). That's because it is made obvious that devs view characters as disposable plot devices and then players stop take the story seriously. Is that what you want? If you came from that other game you should realize these plot devices were part of the issue. They didn't care about the writing or character development, they cared about making cool characters. I guess that works for fan fiction? If anything I would hope players here realize a good story takes time. And if the response is you don't care as much about the story, then you also shouldn't care whether these characters remain or not.

Personally I see DT as a new beginning, but it's also because I'm not impatient and I understand a path has to be created. I think DT is meant to connect the old story to a new one.
Are there some I wouldn't mind going their own way? Sure and the Twins are the first 2 for me. Why are we dragging a couple of teenagers everywhere? This is babysitting.
Y'shtola has always been aloof and when she finds a way to travel to the first (and I think she will) then I think she won't just stop there. She will still be around, but maybe somewhere other than the first and calling to us to help some other civilization.
How many times have we promised G'raha we would go on an adventure with him? That wasn't just put there to make people cry so I'm sure we will be with him for a while.

As for all the character's just being good? Only G'raha and Krile are seen as living to just be good if you paid attention. Y'shtola commits selfish and dangerous acts, Urianger is insecure and secretive, and Thancred is Thancred. I honestly believe the only constant through the expansions after DT will be G'raha and unfortunately the twins.