The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sorry, should have said "freely spammable" rather than "no-CD". Hefty MP costs are likewise fine.

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It was a DPS spell that applied 4 stacks of regular Soteria on your Kardia target (replacing Soteria as an action) or 2 stacks of AoE Soteria that heals around your Kardia target when used with Eukrasia. The spell was a 1000 MP cost. Normal spells like your standard Dosis or basic heals have no MP cost to avoid letting the healer brick themselves, but there were other choices to make with your MP and how you handled it, allowing you to burst with certain resources as needed and make your choices on what to cast matter a lot more.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I've wanted 'stagger' as a mechanic for a long time, and adding a healer that mitigates by delaying damage into a DOT (and focusing on HOTs to equalize the HP bars) is an idea I'd like to see. Engine probably can't support it. But it'd be 'buff management' of sorts, keeping the buff up on people to delay the damage, maybe

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Dunno about the first part but I've been advocating AST to be a strict regen healer (if it can't dual stance) for a year or so now.

I'd prefer the stance dancing as a psuedo cleric stance but a regen/delayed heavy Diurnal with high costs on burst healing options (Helios, Benefic 2, CI, ED) be it MP or CD would be more than welcome.

For SGE... thinking about it, it would be interesting if the other Kardia effects could also give team mates a boost in some area not unlike cards to make switching not necessarily mandatory, but something you would want to do. For example, there is the HoT idea I had where you built up X damage thresh hold. Could also do the same for a shield effect.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It was a DPS spell that applied 4 stacks of regular Soteria on your Kardia target (replacing Soteria as an action) or 2 stacks of AoE Soteria that heals around your Kardia target when used with Eukrasia. The spell was a 1000 MP cost. Normal spells like your standard Dosis or basic heals have no MP cost to avoid letting the healer brick themselves, but there were other choices to make with your MP and how you handled it, allowing you to burst with certain resources as needed and make your choices on what to cast matter a lot more.

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With the above Soteria being able to apply it as well possibly.

On that note, I'm going to say no to having no MP cost. I want more reasons to keep note of my MP bar, not less.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Dunno about the first part but I've been advocating AST to be a strict regen healer (if it can't dual stance) for a year or so now.

I'd prefer the stance dancing as a psuedo cleric stance but a regen/delayed heavy Diurnal with high costs on burst healing options (Helios, Benefic 2, CI, ED) be it MP or CD would be more than welcome.

For SGE... thinking about it, it would be interesting if the other Kardia effects could also give team mates a boost in some area not unlike cards to make switching not necessarily mandatory, but something you would want to do. For example, there is the HoT idea I had where you built up X damage thresh hold. Could also do the same for a shield effect.



With the above Soteria being able to apply it as well possibly.

On that note, I'm going to say no to having no MP cost. I want more reasons to keep note of my MP bar, not less.

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Right now, MP use is almost entirely minor MP taxes that automatically resolve themselves with the use-on-cooldown Lucid Dreaming and the use of your gauge tools which are also used within certain timeframes. In other words, MP management is something that largely resolves itself.

I don't think having your standard gameplay tick away at your MP does anything to create some sort of interesting way to engage with MP as a resource. It's also very bizarre that SMN, RDM, and the healers can theoretically brick themselves into not being able to do anything, yet tanks, melee, and physical ranged have no such consequence.

I would rather see each healer have a selection of MP cost abilities that you want to use often, and have the ability to restore your MP be a manual choice between that and other resources. So your MP management game would be exponentially more engaging than what we have now, not less.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

As much as it pains me to say this, not quite. The questline is about how she refuses to draw aether from nature, instead burning up her own life in a sense to fuel her healing. The questline does not have anything to do with whether she does damage or not.

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This is the accurate answer.

Sylphie is used as an insult against people that pick and play Healer Jobs instead of DPS Jobs because they want to heal their friends and allies instead of dpsing the monster. It's haphazard in how it's used, though, as sometimes it is used referring explicitly to people who only want to heal and do zero DPS, other time against those that will DPS but don't want it to be their focus, and other times against anyone who disagrees with the poster using the insult (e.g. that "Sylphie" is sometimes used as an "I disagree with you and need an insult that won't get me banned from the forums")

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Originally Posted by Tigore

I think Sylphie probably thought she might be shackling nature if she drew from that source. She does begrudgingly start to listen when she learns the truth about what happened to her mother doing the same she did. She realized it was a genuine concern for her life from you and the guild master. She also learned that she did not shackle nature at all and felt happy with her new bond.

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Also this.

It wasn't about DPSing or "dealing damage" in any way, shape, or form. It could just as reasonably be said that the purpose of the questline was that people should use Stoneskin (and much later Aquaveil) as that they should use Stone 2 and Fluid Aura. The quest text and journal entry are both quite clear Sylphie's issue was that she was using her life force to heal people, and was going to try to Raise someone doing this, which the Guildmaster, Y-Suni-Yan, fearing this would kill her (because she'd use HER life force to revive someone from death, which would probably mean killing her by taking all of her life to restore someone else's), tries to prevent. In effect, that one BLU spell that KOs the BLU to revive an ally.

People who want to use Sylphie as an insult tend to ignore all of this, though, using a 2.0 quest meant to establish the lore of the Elementals as the Devs secretly telling Healer players that they should do damage (never mind that the SCH quests say the exact opposite and are nearly, if not entirely, exclusively about SCH's healing and shielding their allies, not dealing damage at all...somewhat ironic when you consider the opposite focus of the two Healer Jobs at the time...)

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Saying "I want to heal" shouldn't be a death sentence to being called a Sylphie since, yeah, that is what I want to do. I've played support classes with nothing more than buff management on top of dps and its not what I like. I want to heal while doing those things and I want healing to take up the MAJORITY (read 40-~70ish) of my time

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Agreed. For all our disagreements, we agree on this.

Even agree on throwing out buffs.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

What I'd ultimately like to see from SGE is to follow GNB's approach--be the healer that feels like a DPS in the way that GNB is the tank that feels like a DPS. That's not entirely true of course, but SGE should have a high APM, fast paced gameplay model of having a real rotation with different options for spells that award different kardia effects.

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Agreed on this as well. I think I've said it several times before that SGE should be the GNB to Healers. Where GNB was a Tank that played like a Melee DPS, SGE could and probably should have been (and should be) a Healer that plays like a Caster DPS. When it was first announced, I thought Chloromancer from RIFT or Disc Priest from WoW, and I still think it should be that.

...it wouldn't be a Job I'd play, but it's a Job I think the game could use and that would make some people happy. To me, that's sufficient reason to have it. (And unlike changing the existing Healer Jobs, it would have hurt no one and taken nothing away from people to introduce/implement SGE that way.)

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I'm pretty sure Ty's SGE rework idea had yes, an AOE Kardia, but at a large MP cost. And I know my idea had AOE Kardia, at a large MP cost.

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Mine also had one, though on a CD instead of an MP cost (my idea for SGE was its DPS be the MP management component, like BLM is), as well as a short duration second Kardia, like Synastry just for Kardia heals instead of GCD heals.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Dunno about the first part but I've been advocating AST to be a strict regen healer (if it can't dual stance) for a year or so now.

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Does kind of fit the aesthetic and class fantasy better, doesn't it? More turning/twisting FATE in people's favor. It would also make more sense for AST's heals to be more efficient/MP cheaper than WHM's if the healing was also not as direct/immediately potent.

The only problem I see with AST as a purely HoT-based healer is, as so often the case, fight design. Since damage in this game pretty much always comes in bursts AST would either end up very strong (if there is enough time between incoming damage for your regens to do their job) or very weak (where your regens do not have enough time between incoming damage to bring the party back to "healthy enough"), as far as I know there is no way to increase the speed at which HoTs tick.

Druid works in WoW as a mostly regen-based healer because damage is often constant but low in impact, which makes HoTs a lot more valuable as a means of mitigating said constant HP drain and on top of that the tick rate in WoW is not fixed, which allows for increasing the rate at which your regens heal (instead of healing 3000 every 3 seconds for 15 seconds it could be sped up to heal 3000 every 1 second for 5 seconds as an example) as a sort of "burst" healing.


I definitely like the concept though.

I'd want AST to be a compiling healer instead of a regen healer, similar to macrocosmosis but for all of their healing skills so when they are busy with their card system they don't have to worry about deaths. Just have the skills go off when conditions are met and heal for x potency when y happens, where x is the compiled damage from when the skill was applied and y is the condition to heal the player: i.e player falls below 30% hp, skill reused, timer over, condition applied to user. This would also allow for the fleshing out of their card system as they would be less busy in terms of healing as most of their heals would be preemptive so there would be more times they could feed into their cards (which would beckon for an overhaul of their existing card system). This diversifying them across the board. They would still be answering the same question as restore x hp but in a new maybe even fresher way.

Speaking of compiling, seeing Macrocosmos reminds me of a niche Time Magick from FFXII universe called ‘Balance’ that uses the difference between caster’s max hp & current hp to deal a fixed AoE damage. I wonder if something of similar concept can be applied to add more of AST’s damaging arsenal…?

(Coincidentally, Balance is one of their card & the job itself has been a mix of a Gambler+Time Mage!)

AST as a regen healer could be an interesting direction. I can think of 2 ways to do it.

The WoW Druid is mentioned as one way. It is a weakness that an individual HoT is not very bursty for emergencies, but multiple HoTs can kind of get the job done if you are proactive before the damage hits. The tank could potentially have 4 on them at once with Lifebloom, Rejuvenation, Wild Growth and Tranquility (2 min cooldown). The Druid used some of the overheals from being proactive with HoTs to power their Efflorescence mushroom to burst heal more (yes I can't even spell that weird word and needed spell check).

Another way was something I did with experimenting on the RPG Maker MZ ATB meter with the Visustella add-on. I was trying to make DoTs with a fast Rogue work and needed a way better than just letting enemies act. The best way I could find was to use the poison DoT turn timer as a resource for another spell to deal more burst damage with. It subtracted some turns off the DoT to unleash more burst. Possibly the same could be done here except with a spell healing more with a subtraction of ... say ... up to 6 seconds of a HoT? Since we have Aspected Helios and Helios already with Aspected Benefic with Benefic, this might already be possible to have the 2 sets interact in such a way.

Druids have 'burst healing' by setting up many different HOTs, as their mastery trait scales their healing output from those HOTs based on how many HOTs the target has on them. Once they are coated in multiple HOTs, the Druid can either leave them like that (which is usually fine because unlike here, HOT ticks in WOW can be scaled with Haste on gear. They're usually also every 3s, but you can lower them and make them tick faster. As well as this if you need more throughput, one of their best throughput CDs is Flourish, which extends all of your active HOTs by 8 seconds, and doubles their tickrate for those 8 seconds too. That means that, even with zero haste on your gear, your HOTs tick every 1.5 seconds, and the 'feel' of this effect is instantly recognizable, you can see the effect with your eyes by looking at the HP bars start going up and up, it's very good visual feedback. The issue with having a Druid here would be they'd cause so many 'buff cap' issues, since they have like 7 different HOTs they can apply (Lifebloom, Rejuv, Wild Growth, Effloresence, Spring Blossoms (Eff talent, used for amping mastery), Regrowth (not ideal), Tranquility (3min burst CD, their 'lilybell' in a sense))

I've thought for a long time, LONG time, that one of the engine reworks SE should do is to lower the DOT tick frequency from 3s to 1s (as Flamethrower currently works, somehow). Medica2's HOT is 150 for 15 seconds, so drop it down to 50p, for the same 15 seconds, and have it tick 3x as often. There's been, not countless times per se, but 'enough times that I cannot remember the exact number', where I've left someone to tick up from a HOT to complete a 'full HP check' like SOS, and they've died 0.3ish sec before the next HOT tick. Making it more frequent is just better for 'game feel'. It'd also increase the chance of getting that last 'DOT tick' after an enrage wipe and scraping a clear regardless ;)

As for AST, I'll make a separate thread of an idea I've just had. It probably won't be good, but hey it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Another way was something I did with experimenting on the RPG Maker MZ ATB meter with the Visustella add-on. I was trying to make DoTs with a fast Rogue work and needed a way better than just letting enemies act. The best way I could find was to use the poison DoT turn timer as a resource for another spell to deal more burst damage with. It subtracted some turns off the DoT to unleash more burst. Possibly the same could be done here except with a spell healing more with a subtraction of ... say ... up to 6 seconds of a HoT? Since we have Aspected Helios and Helios already with Aspected Benefic with Benefic, this might already be possible to have the 2 sets interact in such a way.

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We know SE has a way to have 'using this skill reduces the duration remaining on a buff' because of Blood of the Dragon/Geirs from HW. I'm not sure if they have a way to reduce the duration on a buff applied to someone else, though. But it's a thought I've had about a potential Time Mage caster DPS. A DOT focus, with skills to extend, pause, fast-forward and instantly detonate the DOT in raidbuffs, stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Katish

I'd want AST to be a compiling healer instead of a regen healer, similar to macrocosmosis but for all of their healing skills

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The only problem I see with AST as a purely HoT-based healer is, as so often the case, fight design.

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I mean I wouldn't get RID of things like Macro/ES/Exalt. Its basic healing skills however would be more tuned towards regen. 50 and below AST is literally no different than WHM. And while I'm not going to say get rid of things like Benefic and Helios, one way of changing the "intention" we'll say is MP cost and CDs. SCH for example gets it across that you're intended to use your fairy/shields as Physick, while fine in the early game does jack all late. And yeah I do find it to be much to regen because SE, Fey Blessing, for example, still has a longer CD than A. Helios/Medica 2.

Also

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as far as I know there is no way to increase the speed at which HoTs tick

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Could still be a compiled/delay healing. After all, Horoscope Exists. Usually, I'll play the A.Helios version on it and if there's massive amounts of damage, press Horoscope and viola, burst heal. We could also have a separate skill that does the same thing for our HoTs (A. Benefic included)

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Speaking of compiling, seeing Macrocosmos reminds me of a niche Time Magick from FFXII universe called ‘Balance’ that uses the difference between caster’s max hp & current hp to deal a fixed AoE damage. I wonder if something of similar concept can be applied to add more of AST’s damaging arsenal…?

(Coincidentally, Balance is one of their card & the job itself has been a mix of a Gambler+Time Mage!)

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Or Delayed/Compiled Damage to fit its theme, sure. And can also work with the above skill for HoTs I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Right now, MP use is almost entirely minor MP taxes that automatically resolve themselves with the use-on-cooldown Lucid Dreaming and the use of your gauge tools which are also used within certain timeframes. In other words, MP management is something that largely resolves itself.

I don't think having your standard gameplay tick away at your MP does anything to create some sort of interesting way to engage with MP as a resource. It's also very bizarre that SMN, RDM, and the healers can theoretically brick themselves into not being able to do anything, yet tanks, melee, and physical ranged have no such consequence.

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Oh believe me, I WANT TP back in some way. And yeah that pretty much sums up my dislike of Lucid Dreaming (and by extensions Astrodyne because that's all it is). That said

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I would rather see each healer have a selection of MP cost abilities that you want to use often, and have the ability to restore your MP be a manual choice between that and other resources. So your MP management game would be exponentially more engaging than what we have now, not less.

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Doesn't really compute with how you worded it earlier, you may need to go into more detail.