The Real Problem with Parsers

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Yep, thread became a new low when people started using disabled people as shields.

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If people are going to suggest that everybody has the ability to play equally well, they'd better be including everybody.

Thread hit the biggest low when someone actually suggested that people with physical disabilities should just get over their medical problems and put out the same performance as people without.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Pulling sentences out of context and paraphrasing them is by far the weakest debate tactic available.

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Then it's a good thing neither of us are doing that and instead just breaking it down into specific points so that it's clearer what we're responding to with what part of our post, since we've got like 10+ different points going at the same time.

At least, that's what I'm doing it for. Viridiana might be doing it to make the posts longer. >.>

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Originally Posted by spelley

@Hellzone: I simply disagree with your conclusions. The imbalances you mentioned aren't on the same scale as those often seen in other MMOs.

ALSO:


I

This

Guys?

Seriously.

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So much this. Pulling sentences out of context and paraphrasing them is by far the weakest debate tactic available. Quote the other persons comment in context entiorely and address it.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Assumption: Some people bite their tongue because they don't want to look like a jerk to the entire group because THEY might be kicked instead.

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So when I make assumptions, they're bad, but when you do it they're cool. Gotcha.

This game should have a built in private damage meter. Giving people the potential to see their performance and the tools to increase that performance are good ideas imo. Whether or not person x will or won't isn't relevant, giving all people the same potential is relevant.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

So when I make assumptions, they're bad, but when you do it they're cool. Gotcha.

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I was waiting for an edit. Is that it?

I didn't say assumptions were bad. I said that they're not objective proof and that your idea of having SE give you numbers based on an assumption wouldn't actually prove anything. And I wasn't using my assumption as objective proof, but as a logical expectation.

I mean, technically what you quoted isn't an assumption at all (except the possible reasoning being that they fear they might be the ones kicked) because I know that there are people who don't say anything in group chat because they don't want to look like a jerk in the whole group.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

This game should have a built in private damage meter.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I was waiting for an edit. Is that it?
...
I mean, technically what you quoted isn't an assumption at all (except the possible reasoning being that they fear they might be the ones kicked) because I know that there are people who don't say anything in group chat because they don't want to look like a jerk in the whole group.

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Yeah. This argument is getting boring, and I'm usually pretty willing to spin my wheels in circles for the sake of debate. Also, in case we ever get in a super-fun discussion again, I usually just post "edit incoming" and then paste in my full post. So if you see something shorter than that, there probably isn't more coming.

But anyway, you have anecdotal evidence that people don't want to be perceived as a jerk, but not objective evidence that what they're choosing not to say would actually be harassment. :p

It's actually a really easy solution. Add in game parser. It allows you to see anyone you grouped up with, you can't see random people from duty finder. That's it. And for those who will say it will cause kicks from party finder, the groups who will kick are already parsing.

BTW there is a way to kick someone from PF with out actually kicking. Whoever is pulling there weight whispers or gets whispered, "We are desbanding the group to drop X player/s, we will reinvite". It happens all the time.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Yeah. This argument is getting boring

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But... but... now the pages of this thread will be so short even with the same amount of posts! The scroll bar for the page will actually be allowed to grow larger than a sliver! Who will suppress the scroll bar from growing too large?!?

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But anyway, you have anecdotal evidence that people don't want to be perceived as a jerk, but not objective evidence that what they're choosing not to say would actually be harassment. :p

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Yeah, didn't say it was objective harassment, just that they wouldn't want to look like they were to the whole group.

It goes to the whole "scale of effect" thing. SE came to the conclusion that disabling tells but leaving in chat had more benefits to outweigh potential abuse, and they came to the entirely separate conclusion that the benefits of having a built-in party-visible parser doesn't outweigh potential abuse. They're just two different scales is all.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Who will suppress the scroll bar from growing too large?!?

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How's the old poem go? "To you from failing hands we throw/The torch; be yours to hold it high." Someone else must take up arms against the villainous scroll bar.

Anyway, we both seem to be agreed that parsers would be groovy if they didn't come with a side order of jerks. We just disagree about how many jerks there would be and how many jerks is too many.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

This game should have a built in private damage meter. Giving people the potential to see their performance and the tools to increase that performance are good ideas imo. Whether or not person x will or won't isn't relevant, giving all people the same potential is relevant.

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If it's private, relative performance within context is lost.

A private parse would be an improvement over nothing, but still an incomplete solution IMO.