Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Thinking DRK was gonna receive anything in .08 was a fools errand. even 6.1 i don't expect much.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I think expecting DRK to get any changes in the near future is pure copium. If they didn't change anything in EW, or even bother doing something as funny as ruining it further, they clearly think the design of the job is fine as it is.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

At this point, my only hope is that "wait and see at 6.1" doesn't turn into "wait and see at 6.2", etc etc.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

DRK cries they get nothing. WAR cries they get everything.

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I cannot stress enough that Yoshi-P explicitly said that 6.08 would just be a damage pass, like bringing other DPS up to the level of RPR or better. For all the areas in which DRK is lacking, damage is not one of them.

Throwing "DRK cries they get nothing" out at any opportunity, even in a case when we were explicitly told nobody was getting any of the mechanical adjustments DRK needs, just throws out discussion for pointless doomsaying and crybabying.

Now can we please cease with the flood of salt over not getting something we were not only never promised but told not to expect? Even if you're skeptical about 6.1, you could at least hold that until we get a whiff of what kinds of changes they plan to make, and then see if DRK's truly being "passed over".

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Now can we please cease with the flood of salt over not getting something we were not only never promised but told not to expect? Even if you're skeptical about 6.1, you could at least hold that until we get a whiff of what kinds of changes they plan to make, and then see if DRK's truly being "passed over".

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No.

Dark Knights have once again held off since 4.0 only to have been treated with a complete gutting of their kit to give the other 3 tanks, the complete removal of parry(after spending patch cycles promising players they were working on it), the removal of Dark Arts, terrible leveling design(Stalwart Soul and Dark Missionary specifically being post 70), removal of class identity through the loss of Blood Price, Sole Survivor and other iconic abilities, neutering of Abyssal Drain, Blood Weapon having an issue with latency as well as being split between skill and spell speed, and LD being the worst invuln since 3.0.

And the reasoning for Living Dead remaining as is because of lore reasons. The same lore reasons that claimed Paladins could never block magic yet a few expansions later lo and behold they can block magic. Hypocrisy.

The whole DPS argument doesn't hold up very well considering Gunbreaker does comparable DPS and is by far and large a better designed Tank that has actual defensives.

If they want it to be a shit tank with amazing damage then it would have to be hitting much harder then GNB does to complement it's fragility.

Yoshi P did state that 6.08 would be just potency adjustments but at the same time Dragoon also got a QoL system change to Dragon Sight so ummm...?

The main point is if a Paladin complained about not being able to block magic it was eventually changed to block magic.

And even more concerning is when Warriors were up in arms about Shake It Off being underwhelming it was changed very shortly in one patch cycle.

And on top of that each expansion they have consistently buffed Holmgang to the point that a Trust NPC that uses the class Dark Knight has Holmgang as their invuln instead of Living Dead. So even the dev team knows the skill is complete garbage.

It seems to be the class fantasy to see how much shittier they can make the job each expansion.

I highly admire your optimism but I don't think anything is gonna happen. Nothing but bad news has happened for 7 years with the class. And until changes are made on the level of the Warrior and Paladin reworks the hell raising Dark Knights of the Heaven's Ward are not going to stop their crusade.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I highly admire your optimism

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Why do you keep passing any position that doesn't think that repeatedly restated grievances, especially if given in contexts that could only make those complaints seem less reasonable, are of sufficient benefit to be worth overshadowing most other avenues of discussion as... naive optimism?

Such has very little, ultimately, to do with optimism (nor naivety, for that matter). It's not even a primary factor.

Not seeing anything much besides "angry DRKs shut up pls". If you wish to have a different avenue of discussion that isn't pure Copium I'm all for it. Not particularly interested in a "wait and see what happens" for another 6 years. The treatment of DRK is akin to wearing old leather for so long you can't imagine anything else. Maybe 6.1 will change everything. But I will keep expectations very low.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Dark Knights have once again held off since 4.0.

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I highly doubt you've done any "holding off", considering you're jumping on even the faintest opportunity to launch your aggression.

Unless you mean to tell me 6.08 was the last straw for you? Despite knowing in advance that nothing would come of 6.08 except damage buffs?

Or is it more likely you were just waiting for a chance to be disappointed so you could vent your frustration. Because it really does not seem earned in this specific case, and you've pulled the "since 4.0" diatribe more times than it has been days since the patch dropped.

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I highly admire your optimism

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Nah Shurri's right, the absence of knee-jerk pessimism isn't itself "optimism" or "copium".

I do have healthy skepticism that even if they drop a rework in 6.1, it won't solve all of DRK's problems or "change everything", and we'll be lucky if it's more than bandaids. They probably will leave LD largely the same, and they certainly won't add any new abilities (much less return ones they dropped back in Stormblood) or replace ones like Oblation and Dark Mind. Some things are beyond the scope of a .X patch, and if they miss a .0, they may never come at all.
I set my expectations low, so I can be pleasantly surprised.

I just think it's hard for the devs not to take notice when it's actually a meme at this point that DRK is the worst tank to heal, as much as WAR requires virtually no healing at all.

But when I see you (and I do mean you, MagiusNecros) clogging multiple pages of a feedback thread doing little more than bicker and whine about how DRK will only get worse (and in fact have seen you doing the same in other threads) and throwing bile at the devs that nobody would want to read, and get other people on the same train, and declare anyone who isn't as down bad as you either hopelessly naive or taking Copium, I can't help but see it as derailing constructive discussions. With enough "EVERYTHING IS BAD AND JUST GETS WORSE" drowning out actionable feedback, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We're not trying to shut down discussion about DRK being in a bad place, because we were literally already talking about that this whole time.

But there's a difference between "Aw man, DRK didn't get anything, X is still a problem, that's disappointing" because you got your hopes up, and --

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It seems to be the class fantasy to see how much shittier they can make the job each expansion.

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That's like... Reverse Copium. (Un-Copium? Anti-Copium? I feel like there's a word for it, it's on the tip of my tongue...)

And this certainly isn't the place for venting by questioning the devs' competence. If you really must, start a rage thread on reddit, not piling into every feedback forum about DRK.

MagiusNecros, you seem to take developer decisions that don't align with what you personally want really...well, personally. Try to remember that, one, the devs don't hate Dark Knights or the players that play them, two, they have a LOT of game to focus on at any given time, three, there can be valid design decisions that are 100% opposed to what you personally want, and finally four, at the risk of stating the obvious the devs can make mistakes.

All of those should be self evident. You don't need to feel like you are some beleaguered soul being harried by malicious forces. The devs truly want Dark Knight to be fun and balanced. They obviously fall short in your estimation, and have over and over to you which definitely sucks. I can understand the frustration. But it certainly isn't the fault of favoritism towards other jobs or their players. Design is hard, and a lot of the factors that Developers have in mind when making decisions on how to balance a class simply aren't relevant to individual players of said job.

...I guess the overall point I am making is simply that you should breathe. There are no enemies here, just people that disagree about game design decisions for maximum enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why do you keep passing any position that doesn't think that repeatedly restated grievances, especially if given in contexts that could only make those complaints seem less reasonable, are of sufficient benefit to be worth overshadowing most other avenues of discussion as... naive optimism?

Such has very little, ultimately, to do with optimism (nor naivety, for that matter). It's not even a primary factor.

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Fool me once applies here.

You would totally have a point if some of these "grievances" were only from the last expac. Sadly that's not the case.

We complained about living dead immediately: no response from Dev
We complained about the removal of parry: no response from Dev
We complained about the living shadow: no response from Dev
We complained about new darkside: no response from Dev
We complained that our aoe rotation doesn't get completed till level 70: No response from Dev
We complained that they removed abunch of actually useful abilities we likes: We got a response, O we are deducing actions pressed, then they added extra moves we didn't like.
We complained that building our class around TBN was not fun especially since you didn't get it till like 70: No response from Dev
We complained, We complained and on and on.

While I agree that with new issues like how squishy we should give the devs benefit of the doubt however after a certain point you lose that benefit. They have screwed Drks in every expac and instead of addressing anything what did was; look guys we gave you a new move attached so salted earth, ruined carve and split and abyssal drain and now made that ranged move you barely use a core part of the rotation o and by the way it's still a spell suck it.

I wouldn't say that DRK having Spells is a bad thing, it is just that they lack any impact and dont do anything meaningful aside from doing damage, just like many more Skills/Abilities in this Game.

But i am pretty much done giving the same feedback over and over again. If the only way to improve Jobs is by not playing them, then so shall it be.

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Originally Posted by SineNomine

The devs truly want Dark Knight to be fun and balanced.

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Exactly this!

No dev wastes time, money and resources making a job they hate and just want to demolish, much less make it a posterboy for an expansion and add a new job to the same role in that time.

At worst, they think their experiments with the job have been successful; feel free to dispel those notions as they come with actionable feedback. Even if they wouldn't revert an expansion's worth of changes, you can still offer suggestions on how to build on or adjust what they have.

But they wouldn't try to make it worse. That would actually be a waste of their time.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Exactly this!

No dev wastes time, money and resources making a job they hate and just want to demolish, much less make it a posterboy for an expansion and add a new job to the same role in that time.

At worst, they think their experiments with the job have been successful; feel free to dispel those notions as they come with actionable feedback. Even if they wouldn't revert an expansion's worth of changes, you can still offer suggestions on how to build on or adjust what they have.

But they wouldn't try to make it worse. That would actually be a waste of their time.

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I'm learning towards they are helping the Drk Roleplay community, by making existence pain. Now you can truly feel like a Dark Knight