[Spoilers] Why Zenos is the most important character moving forward

If Zodiark was truly more powerful than Hydaelyn, then Hydaelyn would never have been able to defeat him. That's my main point.

Hydaelyn's original claim was that Zodiark sought to covet power for himself, though recent revelations have thrown that askew. On Hydaelyn's end, she was apparently only meant to keep Zodiark's power in check - but that wasn't what she did. She effectively destroyed him and shattered reality in the process.

Zodiark having 'more' sacrifice to fuel him doesn't necessarily equal more pure power, especially if the method to summon Hydaelyn was different and more refined. Which is exactly the sort of plot convenience I've come to expect lately.

Hopefully the writers didn't just show us Amaurot to give us another 'sad moment' and they actually plan to commit to the idea that both Zodiark and Hydaelyn are not ideal and they're very dangerous. I'd find it rather dull if there's a contrived explanation for Hydaelyn being 'necessary' but Zodiark is not.

That they have both been revealed to be Primals rather than actual deities is a step in the right direction though I'm still wary about what the future will potentially bring.

Either way, I'm also worried about Zenos being involved in all of this. He's too much of a pure plot device for me to appreciate him as a character - and he consistently does things in a way that allows for the protagonists to never really have to get their hands dirty.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If Zodiark was truly more powerful than Hydaelyn, then Hydaelyn would never have been able to defeat him. That's my main point.

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Hydaelyn's power to sunder literally means that if she gets a hit in then the battle rapidly shifts in her favor. If she gets 2 hits in quick succession then Zodiark has basically already lost. On her third hit Zodiark will never have a chance to win anymore because his only chance at being able to beat her is to literally one shot her so she can never land a hit. On the 4th hit she is twice as strong as him.

All Hydaelyn needs to be is durable enough and swift enough to get her hits in. If she can apply her sundering from range then Zodiark has to have a way to block it without his power getting sundered from the act of blocking it. Again it comes down to for Zodiark to win he must win within a single blow without ever taking a blow himself.

Hence why despite being weaker then Zodiark Hydaelyn actually had a very solid chance of winning just from her design despite her lack of aether.

And for primals the more aether they have the more powerful they are period.

I consider Zodiark rather than Hydaelyn to be the underdog in that particular fight. Zodiark having more power at his disposal is irrelevant if Hydaelyn conveniently has the ability to weaken him to such a significant degree. The question, then, is why she didn't stop after a certain point. To me, it reads as though Hydaelyn is the one who coveted power rather than Zodiark as she claimed. Potentially both of them were doing as much, but it's very strange to me that she shattered reality and then effectively came to 'rule' over it whilst masquerading as a deity.

It'll be interesting to me if both Zodiark and Hydaelyn are presented as either being bad news or an unfortunate necessity for the status quo to continue as it is.

Though as mentioned earlier if the story goes in the direction of 'sHe sInGs sO sHe'S gOoD' then I won't find that to be particularly compelling.

Shadowbringers brought with it a number of intriguing revelations, though I do hope the writers are willing to commit to them and that they don't conveniently backtrack and render those revelations obsolete. I'm especially interested in the plot point that is 'balance'. If that amounts to nothing, then it'd be pretty disappointing after being teased and dragged out for so long.

An equally convenient (but eminently logical) plot device could be introduced this time - Zodiark is summoned with her power to enervate in mind and thus shielded from it. The only thing that is non-contingent about Primal summoning appears to be the tempering - anything else, goes, given adequate aether. I also doubt it's as simple as getting one hit in, as their battle dragged on. Zodiark may have been more potent in terms of raw aether but given that she was summoned so as to split everything into pieces, she had the upper hand. The part that Hydaelyn left out is why she and Zodiark fought, and we were left with the impression that he simply wanted more power, as opposed to guarding what was already his by virtue of his primacy.

I believe she didn't stop with Zodiark because that was not the intention - she was brought about to sunder not just Zodiark, but the ancients and their world, because they were too "dangerous" to exist in their full form (especially if the Final Days was an unintended side effect of them that built up over time) and Hydaelyn's summoners didn't want the associated control that would be required to keep their creation magicks in check. Their memory was then wiped of their past*. There were probably false pretences that were offered to ensure the Convocation went along with it, i.e. this thing Emet-Selch mentioned about keeping Zodiark in check.

Although I don't expect them to introduce any plot twists that portray the Convocation as villainous, so much as there being a disagreement over methods and the amount of sacrifice required to bring back their kin to replace the half lives that succeeded them, it's always a possibility.

If it goes back to "darkness is evil" (after a great exposition of why that need not be the case), or the Convocation ushering in the Final Days as a pretext to summon Zodiark (unlikely given the account Hythlodaeus gave, suggesting disagreement came when they were proposing Zodiark as a solution to the problem, rather than much earlier), I'll probably begin to lose interest, if I'm honest. Zodiark's orientation to Darkness may have something to do with it being the most suitable method of driving out these parasites, much like the BoL was useful in dealing with the Lightwardens.

As for Zenos, I think we've only seen things from his angle so far, and I believe there's a little misdirection to give the impression he may be powerful enough to succeed at his goal. I don't think he is. He was able to quell a Primal summoned out of rage at a fraction of the strength of a Primal like Hydaelyn or Zodiark. Although I think he'll be a useful tool in hastening the Rejoining, I believe he will be squashed by Zodiark and absorbed into him as a "reward" for his hubris, taking his body in the process. What he is capable of doing is being a very resilient pest and thorn in your side.

*Maybe not entirely, if the Twelve (thirteen with the twin deities) are a collective memory of the Convocation, as opposed to a literal body formed to summon Hydaelyn in opposition to the Convocation, as is speculated. I wonder how much can be read into Emet-Selch's "weary wanderer" line, given that this is Oschon's title... seems like a reach, really, but so do many things we've learnt in ShB in hindsight.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Either way, I'm also worried about Zenos being involved in all of this. He's too much of a pure plot device for me to appreciate him as a character - and he consistently does things in a way that allows for the protagonists to never really have to get their hands dirty.

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This is probably the biggest strike against Zenos’ character. For all his presentation as an obstacle for our characters to overcome, his actions seem to reglarly aid(or at the very worst, his results do not hinder) our endeavors. This isn’t like Elidibus where some grander scheme is being planned in the wings, Zenos’ goal is the fight, irregardless of anything else. If nothing comes of it other than our victory, than Zenos will be hated as a villain, but in the wrong way: the difference between writing a “bad guy” and writing a “bad villain”. The hatred will be less towards his acts and results in the setting and more towards how said acts ultimately made the plot easier and an obvious handing the world on a platter, instead of a more complex, farreaching outcome.

Indeed, but they also risk that by writing the Zodiark/Hydaelyn struggle to be entirely one-sided in her favour in terms of its motivation and consequences.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Hydaelyn's power to sunder literally means that if she gets a hit in then the battle rapidly shifts in her favor. If she gets 2 hits in quick succession then Zodiark has basically already lost. On her third hit Zodiark will never have a chance to win anymore because his only chance at being able to beat her is to literally one shot her so she can never land a hit. On the 4th hit she is twice as strong as him.

All Hydaelyn needs to be is durable enough and swift enough to get her hits in. If she can apply her sundering from range then Zodiark has to have a way to block it without his power getting sundered from the act of blocking it. Again it comes down to for Zodiark to win he must win within a single blow without ever taking a blow himself.

Hence why despite being weaker then Zodiark Hydaelyn actually had a very solid chance of winning just from her design despite her lack of aether.

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Sounds like part 4 of a final boss fight to me.

Hydaelyn was not holistically stronger than Zodiark, she just had a singular ability that exploited a way to weaken Zodiark. The power to divide a soul. Similar in the anime Bleach. There was a general who commanded incredible fire based powers where one single ember was enough to incenrate the most powerful of beings. The villain created a lack who was extremely weak but he spec'd him out with the sole ability to seal the general's skill so it couldn't be used. Does that make the lackey stronger than the general? Same concept. With the power to divide a soul by 50% with each strike, and delivering 13 strikes, Zodiark was reduced in strength enough to be sealed away.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

This is probably the biggest strike against Zenos’ character. For all his presentation as an obstacle for our characters to overcome, his actions seem to reglarly aid(or at the very worst, his results do not hinder) our endeavors. This isn’t like Elidibus where some grander scheme is being planned in the wings, Zenos’ goal is the fight, irregardless of anything else. If nothing comes of it other than our victory, than Zenos will be hated as a villain, but in the wrong way: the difference between writing a “bad guy” and writing a “bad villain”. The hatred will be less towards his acts and results in the setting and more towards how said acts ultimately made the plot easier and an obvious handing the world on a platter, instead of a more complex, farreaching outcome.

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Yeah, I found Stormblood's main story somewhat deflating because Zenos did everything he could to be overthrown from Doma and Ala Mhigo. It makes me question what the true conflict was about.

Hydaelyn didn't defeat Zodiark through raw power, she did it by having powers tailor-made to counter him.

Anyway, Hydaelyn's entire raison d'être is making sure "the new world belong[s] to the new lives newly born," implicitly the races of man, which means making sure they aren't used as fuel to resurrect the Ancients and bring back the days of Amaurot. Regardless of debatable power levels and truthfulness on anyone's part, at the end of the day she exists to, as so many are fond of the phrase, make sure that "the reins of history are in the hands of man." There is no other reason for her being, so arguing over specifics is kind of moot in my opinion.

Stormblood's main conflict centered around the price and value of freedom, exemplified with Lyse and Hien's heart-to-heart in the Oronir jail while we and Gosetsu were out spying on the Dotharl for them, as well as the creed taken up by the Ala Mhigan Resistance upon our return from Othard (Liberty or Death, an abridging of the famous American Revolutionary creed "Give me liberty or give me death!"). The PC gets their motivations questioned, as well.