Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

The devs could step in, but why not deal with it ourselves? Make it an unwritten rule that you don't queue with DF for HW EX primals not named Rav or Bis, or most of AS if you aren't at the final phase and you especially don't queue if have no experience and have not watched a guide.

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On japanese servers it actually that way (at least from what I hear) - you use PF to learn and then DF to clear. Western world has decided that we want to do it the other way round.
And frankly - I'm fine with having both at the same time. Something, the RF (or DF with the "clear-option") would provide.
If you want to use DF to learn the fight - its cool, you can queue up for "learning".
If you want to use DF to farm the fight - cool, you can do that too, because the queue will be seperated from those people who still need to get their clear.
If either of those queues is really slow, the person in question can do and make a PF.

Fair for everyone, isnt it?
(Except that people here dont like the idea of someone not having to help newbies...)

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Well it just really makes no sense to put them in after the two months is up , because then they would do two things at once put them in duty finder then also unsync them all.

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Honestly, it would make more sense to just do both simultaneously, because it's a "kill two birds with one stone" sort of deal.

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You keep sayin that there are two options Vidu but we both know that its only one option and thats to make a learning party only (this is the only option that someone who doesnt have 10 hours to sit around and wait for a que has). You commented on my very thread I made on the subject I tried queing for sep before I cleared it , in rf, thordan as well sometimes even with friends not a single person joined not even one.

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To be fair, Raid Finder only became a thing around the time of Sophia's release, and there was no cross-server Party Finder. With Sophia Ex being the most current primal--the shiny new toy--of course more individuals (solo and grouped) are going to queue for the newest content compared to Thordan Ex, especially since Thordan is a difficult primal to both PUG and PF sometimes (because people want to either ignore mechanics, or can't seem to understand how they work). Shortly after, the cross-server Party Finder was released, along with Zurvan, and it was easier than ever to make learning/farm groups for any and all Ex primals. Raid Finder, essentially, "died" then.

One patch cycle with one Ex primal is not a good way of judging the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of a system. Maybe if the cross-server PF hadn't been released until 4.0, there would have been more success in Raid Finder. Maybe not. It's difficult to say. But with such a short window of viability, you can't really judge the effectiveness of it.

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And with cross server party finder Im actually pretty sure rf itself was prob not even used at all hardly it was pretty much known that it was dead once cross server party finder came out.

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See above.

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But I would say that maybe SE knows that some people would like to get clears while the content is somewhat relevant and that the filter had been in place long enough on this older content.

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The filters were never there to "prevent" people without clears from getting them. And the removal of them cannot guarantee that they'll get them now. I don't really understand why people think that those without clears for certain content should be allowed to queue for Duty Complete just because they think it's more "convenient"--be it for faster queues or just to get carried by 7 other people. If you haven't unlocked the content, you can't queue for it. If you aren't the appropriate level for content, you can't queue for it. So this really isn't any different: you haven't completed the duty, therefore you cannot select the option to queue as if you have. (Note how I did NOT say that you cannot select the option to queue period.)

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I dont really see them changing this simply because of the small window of time it is, because the fact is the two sides just simply arent going to agree on this.

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Of course they aren't. In a perfect world, they would, but this is not a perfect world. However, that doesn't give either side the right to say that their needs and their time are more important/valuable than the other side's, and that one needs to bend to the will of the other.

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So the devs are in a sense giving us both a set amount of time to be accommodated because carry aside, its kind of annoying that every time you would like to do some content you have to broadcast your whole name and server all across your data center.

Thats one of the things I love best about duty finder its anonymous I dont have to worry about, someone knowing who I am and where I am from etc.

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....what? I don't...

You do realize that EVEN IN DUTY FINDER, you are not completely anonymous, right? Especially now that they've added the Contacts function. I could queue into Cape Westwind with you, and once I get out, look and see "Oh, this person is from this server." And even before Contacts was a thing, people could still search for you on the Lodestone. By name. Which they saw while in the duty with you, be it through Party Finder or Duty Finder. Your name doesn't show up as "Healer #1" or "DPS #3" in Duty Finder (strictly talking about PvE here, not PvP, since I know other alliances are only shown as the job, no names--EDIT: As clarified by Vidu, afterwards you can still see the character names as well as scores; I forgot about that because I don't PvP that often, so thank you! :D).

If you choose not to "broadcast your whole name and server all across your data center," and instead rely on the "anonymity" of DF, well, that's your choice. Doesn't mean that the other tools available for queuing for/clearing/farming content (RF and PF) are any less viable, or any more restrictive/exclusive. To be honest, Party Finder can be a whole lot more restrictive than Raid Finder.

Raid Finder is basically split between:
--Duty Incomplete/Practice - for those who have not cleared, or are learning
--Duty Complete - for those that have cleared, and want to clear some more or farm

Party Finder has even more restrictions that party leaders can add to a group, such as:
--Restrictions on ilvl - they can easily place the minimum ilvl required to join their PF above the minimum required for the duty. And some do this for speed kills, or under the (false) impression that higher ilvl = better players/more skilled players.
--Restrictions on job - Party leaders can opt for solo tank/solo healer/6 DPS groups. Party leaders can opt for DRK/WAR or AST/SCH combinations rather than letting whoever join. Party leaders can also exclude DPS jobs. I've seen quite a few that have the ranged physical limited to MCH or BRD (not both), or the ranged magical DPS limited to SMN, no BLM (probably for the raise). I've seen groups that exclude MNK because of their lack of raid utility/synergy compared to say, a DRG (Battle Litany/Disembowel--synergy with those who deal piercing damage) or NIN (Trick Attack/Goad--synergy with WAR for slashing damage).
--Server-only parties: People can opt to keep their groups to their server only, and not allow "outsiders" from other servers.
--Password-protected parties - Party leaders can set a password to only let those select few they want in their party join. That's pretty damn exclusive, far more exclusive than just "cleared" or "not cleared."

The current "meta" is DRK/WAR, SCH/AST, DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH. And there are PFs up there that follow that meta, and have those restrictions on their groups. So how is that less restrictive than the options "cleared" or "haven't cleared"?

Also worth noting that, before Raid Finder, the newest Ex primals could only be queued for with a full group, no solo queue. And that was with them in Duty Finder. Seems pretty restrictive...



Personally, I wouldn't mind if everything was in Duty Finder, and Party Finder had the options from Raid Finder added to the ones already there. If people have no preference on if veterans or newbies join their PFs because they either just want to do a clear or teach, then they don't have to set either restriction, or they can set for both. If people just want to get those together who have cleared the duty for swift, easy farming, then they should be able to do so. If a group just wants 8 new people to jump into a primal completely blind for the sole excitement of not knowing what to expect, then they should be able to do so.

Forcing players together that have different goals is just asking for trouble. Because some will not want explanations of the fight (they would prefer to be surprised). Some want to kill the boss as fast as possible so that they can requeue again (solo-farming). Some people want in-depth explanations of mechanics/strategies, or a slow progression of a fight, and a 60-90 minute time frame may not be adequate time to give them what they want. Just look at Leveling Roulette: people end up in a duty completely new, or at level for it, and want a complete understanding of the duty, or a complete clear. Those people are also sometimes paired with people that have everything to 60, and want to get in and get out as fast as possible, collect their tomes, and be done. The two groups usually end up clashing, with one (or both) leaving. MSQ Roulette is another example: if you want to watch the cutscenes in Castrum or Praetorium, well, be prepared to be left behind by the other people, because they won't wait. They want to get and get out.

I like the way the JP data centers do things: PF is for clearing content or learning content, and DF is for when you are ready to comfortably farm it. And it's not something that is "forced," but just an unwritten rule born out of respect and their culture (which tends to focus on the success/benefits of the entire group rather than just one individual). Unfortunately, western cultures tend to be about individual success and individual benefits, rather than collective.


ADDITION:

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

tools ? I like privacy in real life so I am also very protective over my in game character as well and dont have time for nonsense in a video game. Especially if all that can be done is verbal arguments over a screen so whats the point.

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Uhm. If you don't have time for "nonsense" or "verbal arguments over a screen," then why do you continue to post in this thread?

And with regards to character, okay, that's fine. But I could go to the Lodestone right now, and look up your character. Because your character's name is posted publicly on this forum just like it is in duties, be them through Duty Finder, Raid Finder, or Party Finder. And no one is asking for you to disclose personal details like your real-life gender, where you live, how old you are, etc., or tell us your life story. I don't understand this argument. I really don't.

Because there's no way for us to know these personal details about you unless you disclose them, and, again, I don't see anyone asking you to do that. I've never even been asked what my real-life gender is in-game, or how old I am. The most I've been asked is: "What country are you from?" I know there are crazy stalker-ish players out there, but I really think that they are few and far between. Most people aren't going to come up to you and demand to know your life story.

(just a quick note on being anonym in PvP: you arent - at the end of the duty it will show everyone your name, server and in a sense even how well you did - including the amount of healing you did, damage you dealt, damage you took; how many people you killed, how often you were killed and how many support-kills you have; in cases when there are objectives it will also tell everyone how well you did on them, as in how many towers you took, for example)

Edit: But I ofc totally agree on the farm-option for the DF - sadly all those people who are against it have shown us why its not already working outside of JP data centers...

The thing is my view isn't all that different from u guys like I've said. In my experience I have clearly learned that come storm blood to be on time. Do things when it's current. The problem with this game is to do end game, u must bomb rush the story which I personally hate but will do for moree challenging content. I'm willing to do this myself because I see the face of the community you as a player don't dictate how you play the game your either at the will of the community or the will of the devs.

It's acceptance that everyone has to do the most, that being said I agree there is a time for such boundaries on content there is a reason why zur is still in rf. There's an understanding that the new primals will be there as well. New players and returning players come to this game daily I see it on nn all the time as a mentor.

If those players have to deal with certain things then so does everyone else. It's one of those welcome to the Club things , SE felt like this content was old enough to be put in df. Just like someone looking for a clear has to put some effort in now those whom have had their exclusive filter all this time will have to go through the necessary steps to filter out their farm parties.

Filters fine when it's farm season, but we are now two months from an expansion jump through the same hoops as those still looking to get their first clear what makes your need more important than theirs. It's not easy learning stuff late, so why should farmers have things with ease? When they have had plenty of time coasting without a care, and with their almighty skills an abilities because they can carry a whole group according to everyone here ,gettin 99 tomes should of came with ease for them. It's only temporary it's not gona last long rf will be back to normal soon enough u could say it hasn't even changed with zur still in it now.

So let those whom enjoy the df with no filters now enjoy this while it last. Everyone can't be pleased at once and I'm pretty sure SE knows that so they do the best they can to get around to everyone's wishes. You guys have had great experiences with rf , Ive had great experiences on df it was pretty much my only way to ever have gotten any sync clears on the old arr primals.

Otherwise it all would of been unsync like all my friends where doing so in my experience df has proven to work. In your experience raid finder works wonders in mine it was just a waste of time and I didnt see the good things about the feature and its a shared experience because its several post on it being useless to players.

So there is a divide here whats SE to do exactly what they just did have rf be the standard with its filter for six months, and give those whom prefer df there two months before the content is no longer relevant. I dont see how this is unfair in the slightest, but Im sure you guys will find some way to think it is, if you dont wana be with noobs then dont que its just that simple.

It is not possible to please both parties at the same time, so image its just like your with a sibling you get to ride the swing first and they get to ride it second both get to ride the swing shouldnt be any argument here.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Filters fine when it's farm season, but we are now two months from an expansion jump through the same hoops as those still looking to get their first clear what makes your need more important than theirs. It's not easy learning stuff late, so why should farmers have things with ease? When they have had plenty of time coasting without a care, and with their almighty skills an abilities because they can carry a whole group according to everyone here ,gettin 99 tomes should of came with ease for them. It's only temporary it's not gona last long rf will be back to normal soon enough u could say it hasn't even changed with zur still in it now.

So let those whom enjoy the df with no filters now enjoy this while it last. Everyone can't be pleased at once

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Did you not understand anything we said here when you pulled this argument before?
Do I have to tell you again?
DF was always open for everyone - now its closed for farm people.
This does NOT make it easier for new people to get their clears - it just makes it more difficult for farmers to get their birds. If it makes it easier for new people to get their kills, its bought with the time and nerves of those who still want to use the DF to farm and roll the dice.

You are always able to "enjoy" the DF (or RF) - if there are filters, they are used by people to make this content more enjoyable for them. Removing the filter does excatly one thing: People who want to farm dont have the gurantee anymore to be paired up with like minded people. And are put into parties with newbies with potentially very different levels of experience. Its not helping!

It is very possible to please both parties at the same time - by giving them equal treatment, as I suggested before. If one party can only be pleased at the cost of the other party, that party needs to reviste their attitude. If newbies are only please when experience people (unwillingly) sacrifice their freetime in a game to help them to clear content, something is wrong with those newbies, I'm sorry.

You're asking us to "just let the people who want to clear this to have it" - but what are they having, excatly?
Either the same queue they had before OR a queue with people in it who'd rather not be there. In their freetime. In a video game.
And you're telling me thats okay and fair? You're telling me we should just let them have the time of a person who'd rather spend that time in a different way - you're indeed very gracious when it comes to other peoples time...

The reason people feel like RF didnt work are the following:
1) People didnt know about it - easly fixed by moving the filter-option to the DF or raising more awareness for the RF
2) People didnt queue for the content because it was already to old - most likely the case for anything before Sophia EX. RF was released together with that fight, so she was the new hot shit in there, that everyone wanted to do - it worked really, really well for that fight, as many people have stated here. Thordan, Nidhogg, Sephi - all of them were released before and its very likely that a good amount of people was already done with them, both clear and farm-wise.
3) People dont queue for the content because they prefer a different set-up than the standard-one - currently the case with Zurvan EX and the solo-tank strat.

Ultimatly both DF and RF fail when not enough people are intrested in said content. But its really not cool to go to one group and say "Hey, listen, we'd like you to just forgot what you actually wanted to do and do what they want to do, because we consider them more important"

I mean, what you are basically saying right now is "People who want to get clears now are screwed, thats really unfair - but I have an idea how to make it fair: lets screw everyone else too!"

We will be in the same situation in SB again if we dont tell the devs "Hey, we actually like tha farm-option in DF, it was a good idea, keep it, please!"

Its not siblings riding a swing - its your mom telling you that you have to take your little brother to the football-game that you want to win and you know you'll lose if you take him. You're taking him every other day, but today, you really want to win and he will be in the way - also, his friends are coming over in 10 minutes to play with him, but NO! he wants to play with his cool older brother now - and mom says you have to take him with you!
Except you're paying mom to give you the football already... and its your freetime... and you really didnt wanted a freaking younger brother (...sorry, getting to personal here right now).

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Originally Posted by Vidu

On japanese servers it actually that way (at least from what I hear) -

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There's a lot more to it then where they learn. This thread has some good insight on it.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Do things when it's current. The problem with this game is to do end game, u must bomb rush the story which I personally hate but will do for moree challenging content.

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It's easiest to do things when it's current, but it's nowhere near impossible if you're late to the party. (and I stand by it being less possible in the bog standard df queue) I remember the days when the new primal didn't even HAVE a non-full party queue--at least with RF that queue existed for people just wanting to give it a solo shot.

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It's acceptance that everyone has to do the most

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What are you even saying here? It's a game, nobody is mandated to do anything.

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that being said I agree there is a time for such boundaries on content there is a reason why zur is still in rf. There's an understanding that the new primals will be there as well. New players and returning players come to this game daily I see it on nn all the time as a mentor.

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New players are here every day. Players who haven't cleared X (where X = Primal EX of your choosing) outnumber players who have. As I asked before, how does filtering out the minority who have cleared inhibit the people who haven't from queueing together?

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If those players have to deal with certain things then so does everyone else.

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I was born with a cleft lip. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

I broke my arm. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

I busted my eardrum in from pressure changes caused by diving. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

I got booted from Haukke HM back when it was current because my dps was low. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

I have to deal with someone who thinks suffering some endure should be endured by all. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

Several FCs have had their chests emptied out by trolls who abuse the FC privilege system. If they had to deal with it so should everyone else, because as you say Payton,

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welcome to the Club

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Just like someone looking for a clear has to put some effort in now those whom have had their exclusive filter all this time will have to go through the necessary steps to filter out their farm parties.

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Both have always had to put in effort. I remember being in PF every single day with new learning parties every single day to try and beat Sephirot. But I also remember this was before raid finder, and thus this was also before I had any sort of option TO queue solo, since before raid finder (and this filter you hate so bad) there was literally NO way to queue solo for the newest boss.

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Filters fine when it's farm season

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If you can just declare farm season over, I can just declare learning season over. The people who were queueing in RF Cleared are not suddenly going to be joining DF blindly. You look at it as "Good they finally have to do the work" but I see it as "Well taking those duties out of RF has helped absolutely nobody."

Let's also remember that the people who haven't cleared are the majority here. RF only filtered out a minority of people who have cleared. And of that "has cleared" minority, not all of them used RF anyway so a fraction of a minority. But again, if you suffered so should everybody else ever.

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but we are now two months from an expansion

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Oh you mean PRIME TIME to farm everything left in this expansion in prep for SB? It's time to get Stormblood ready that means cleaning up any farms you have left, tackling any final challenges Heavensward has left and prepping raid groups for Bend of Time if you or your fc are so inclined.

Also known as "farm season". But no that's over. Newbies are resigned to DF hell and the few that want definite practice will go to PF as they always have anyway. I should also mention that 2 months is about $30 per person.

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jump through the same hoops as those still looking to get their first clear what makes your need more important than theirs.

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Nothing, but this was what they had to go through ANYWAY. Both cleared and not-cleared had the option of PF and always have. RF allowed uncleared to queue in on their own in the first place. The fact it also allowed a minority of the playerbase to queue on their own was just a bonus.

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It's not easy learning stuff late, so why should farmers have things with ease?

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Translation: Some suffer, so all should suffer.

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When they have had plenty of time coasting without a care

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See it's funny you say you share an opinion for the most part with veterans but you say crap like this. NOBODY has coasted without a care. First gen had to learn fights from scratch. Second gen had to pick up the first gen's journals and figure it out from there. Third gen had to do the same, and then fourth and fifth and now we're at Xth gen and you're complaining that (X-Y)th gen had it easy? Get out of here with that garbage.

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and with their almighty skills an abilities because they can carry a whole group according to everyone here

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You're right, they can't. So why are you asking people to?

"I'm not, I just want queue times to work!"

Sure, great. Again, by pulling a minority group back in with the crowd. How does it help? It doesn't.

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,gettin 99 tomes should of came with ease for them.

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99 *anything* isn't easy. 99 A1S isn't *easy*. It's grueling, it's time consuming, it's painful to push yourself through, even moreso when you have to ask every time if someone in the group will turn what should be a 3 min and done instance into bloody 90 minutes because they couldn't be ASSED to look up a guide.

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It's only temporary it's not gona last long rf will be back to normal soon enough u could say it hasn't even changed with zur still in it now.

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And, as has been pointed out before (I think it was Vidu?), you and others are advocating for RF to be shut down completely.

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So let those whom enjoy the df with no filters now enjoy this while it last.

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Why? We're suffering now and so should they. In fact let's follow your logic through to the end and just shut servers down until SB launches, because it's just two months anyway.

Oh yeah, that'd be effing insane. People who enjoy DF, go ahead and enjoy it, just don't go under the illusion DF is any different than RF Uncleared.

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Everyone can't be pleased at once

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People who are pleased at the misery of others should never be happy.

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You guys have had great experiences with rf ,

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You wanna know the absolute funniest part of all this? My only experience with RF was using it to learn Sophex from the ground up and farming her for a bit with it. I should also mention I didn't get into the swing of RF until a week prior to XPF so I was late to the party. Anecdotal? Sure but so far that's all you provided.

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Ive had great experiences on df it was pretty much my only way to ever have gotten any sync clears on the old arr primals.

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I'm glad you enjoy DF. You know what else is on DF besides primals? Everything else in the game. Even EX Roulette, and if you go onto any FB group even once everybody is always crying because of the lack of group filtering, hardcores being put with casuals raising issues of "I play how I want it's my sub."

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Otherwise it all would of been unsync like all my friends where doing so in my experience df has proven to work.

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Anecdotal. My experience with RF has proven to work too. Wanna know the difference? None, because RF uncleared *is* DF, and RF Cleared is DF with an added filter. That's ALL.

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In your experience raid finder works wonders in mine it was just a waste of time and I didnt see the good things about the feature and its a shared experience because its several post on it being useless to players.

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And it's also a shared experience of it being useful to players given everybody arguing with you.

A
NEC
DOT
AL.

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So there is a divide here whats SE to do exactly what they just did have rf be the standard with its filter for six months, and give those whom prefer df there two months before the content is no longer relevant.

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Content's still relevant and as you said, DF synched still works for irrelevant ARR primals so it would work for irrelevant HW primals just as well in SB.

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I dont see how this is unfair in the slightest, but Im sure you guys will find some way to think it is,

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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but my answer would normally be "because you hate solo queuers, you don't see how it's not fair. You also see some sort of benefit that isn't there at all."

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if you dont wana be with noobs then dont que its just that simple.

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That's what will happen, and that's how DF will be even more dead than anyone claims RF to be.

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It is not possible to please both parties at the same time, so image its just like your with a sibling you get to ride the swing first and they get to ride it second both get to ride the swing shouldnt be any argument here.

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It's more like there are two swings, but the little sibling wants to sit in your lap while you swing. You don't want that so mom comes out and cuts your swing down so you and your brother *have* to use the same swing at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

There's a lot more to it then where they learn. This thread has some good insight on it.

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Well, thanks for the insight, I only glanced over it though, because I'm not sure how its relevant to the discussion at hand. The main things I got from this are that japanese people are betting more on fail-safe-strategies instead of trying to push everything to the limit (as in: solo-tank and solo-heal Zurvan EX for example) and that they're more willing to recover than western people who just start blaming each other.

The second thing I kinda got from this (and from my knowlegde about the japanese schoolsystem) is: Slowest person dictates the speed of a run - and everyone is cool with it (just like they are in schools, until a certain age, before they start putting kids through a hell of extra classes, but lets keep this aside for a moment).
Now, that is, ofc, a very noble cause and way of thinking - and maybe something that will never truely work in western culture.
And maybe the question I'm going to ask now is prove that as a german person I'm to self-absorb or something like that, but anyways: How much are you expected to slow down? Do you go from 10 minute clears to 15 minute clears? Or to 2 or 3 wipes because one person cant handle mechanics? Or to 60 minutes and no clear at all? Are we explaining the crucial new mechanics of a fight - or do we start with "there will be AoEs on the ground, dodge them!"? Do we feed them neat little tips and tricks how to optimise their rotation - or do we ask the bard to use WM and the dragoon to keep heavy thrust up?
Where do we draw the line to accommodate to the slowest person - and at what point do we say "I'm really sorry, but I dont think you're fit for this content yet"?

Maybe we have less patience and understanding than the japanese playerbase - but honestly, I was in this Sophia EX-run a few nights ago (mentioned that before) and even after being told several times two people still didnt manage to turn around from the second demigurg when she casts the eye-mechanic. Same with the thing when you have to get behind the third one to avoid his 270° AoE. And those people didnt show that they were aware of doing something wrong - not even after being told. So thats the second problem we're having here: not enough self-reflection and the ability to spot our own mistakes and be sorry for them (another thing that is big in japan).

Since we wont fundamentally change our culture (which I personally consider a good thing), lets do the best we can and seperate two groups of people who dont go well together because they're holding each other back.

Found this while browsing reddit.
Really wish this could be the case with NA/EU data centers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...p_data_center/

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

The devs could step in, but why not deal with it ourselves? Make it an unwritten rule that you don't queue with DF for HW EX primals not named Rav or Bis, or most of AS if you aren't at the final phase and you especially don't queue if have no experience and have not watched a guide.

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It is an unwritten role in JP data centers.

DF is for those who want to farm the content.
PF is for training after the content is added to DF.
RF was used for farming and trining depending on the options selected.

They aslo use a lot of macros, signs and numbers for positions if needed.
And prefer to follow safe starts rather than speed run content with high risk.

Wish we do the same in NA/EU.