What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

They literally had us fight the Knights of the Round from FFVII in Heavensward. The response was overwhelmingly positive at the time. Doubtless the same would have occurred if we fought Varis in the form of Anima, who was more respected as an antagonist than Thordan ever was.

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I enjoy the references as well, I just prefer to see more content original to XIV with unique models.

Anima did kind of feel wasted as a dungeon boss instead of as a trial though.

Given Ishikawa rewrote the story without input like the retreat version had, I’d say Endwalker is closer to what she imagined than what Yoshi P or the rest of the team initially conceived of.

And let’s not get it twisted. Ishikawa firmly agrees that Hermes helped lay the foundation for the world that comes later, and even goes far enough to say it’s not simple whether he and Meteion are good or bad. Referring to what Hermes did as a mistake and not an evil act is telling I think.

Ultimately the writers can say whatever they so wish, but it isn't unreasonable for people to suggest that seeking to destroy all of existence isn't an act worthy of sympathy in the same way as someone striving to do whatever is necessary in order to protect and preserve their loved ones and civilisation.

Ishikawa, at least, is leaving things open to personal interpretation whereas Yoshi-P seems to be struggling to grasp why Venat and Hermes did not go down as well as Emet-Selch in terms of inducing sympathy and fondness.

Maybe, just maybe, most of us wouldn't be willing to let our loved ones be murdered by a pair of deranged nutters wanting to enforce a 'test' and wipe out not only everyone we care about but any sign of memory of our existence and society.

I think that it would made for a very touching scene to see a bewildered, desperate mother wrap her hands around Venat's neck and strangle the life from her when told that Venat intended to murder her family and erase all knowledge of their existence.

...but of course, being the cowardly little wretch that she is, Venat didn't even have the stones to inform anyone of Meteion's existence or what her proposed 'solution' entailed.

Indeed. Yoshi can find it as "surprising" as he likes. We're not going to be gaslit into seeing Hermes in the same way.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Given Ishikawa rewrote the story without input like the retreat version had, I’d say Endwalker is closer to what she imagined than what Yoshi P or the rest of the team initially conceived of.

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I don't know how you come to this conclusion. What she presented at the "residential" wasn't accepted, so she rewrote it to be something the others would accept. Sounds like the opposite of telling the story she wanted to tell.

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And let’s not get it twisted. Ishikawa firmly agrees that Hermes helped lay the foundation for the world that comes later, and even goes far enough to say it’s not simple whether he and Meteion are good or bad. Referring to what Hermes did as a mistake and not an evil act is telling I think.

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Obviously everything had to happen the way it did for the current game world to exist, I don't believe anyone has ever argued that. I've never believed Metetion was evil, she was a faulty creation given a misguided mission and ended up corrupted.

As for Hermes, most people (even those who loved his character) thought he suffered from some form of mental illness. What Ishikawa had in mind is not what was conveyed in the game. It was about as "evil" and a "mistake" as a postal shooter.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

At this point it just seems like anyone who enjoyed the story elements of ARR and HW is being thrown under the bus. The finale didn't feel like a proper ending on many fronts and where the game seemed to reward attention to detail it now seems to neglect players who bother to dig beneath the surface and pay attention to the subtle elements.

I'm not sure where they're getting their feedback from, either. People have been doing deep dives into the game's lore for quite some time yet now it seems like any feedback they do get is heavily filtered and entirely limited to what people are posting on Twitter and Reddit. Most of the 'fanservice' certainly reflects that sort of style, too.

Honestly, it was the Garleans and Ascians who hooked me the most back in the days of ARR and HW. I wanted to see where their respective stories would go and the game opted to handle both in a very strange manner.

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Genuinely asking here. What WAS that first drew you to the Garleans and Ascians in ARR and in HW? IMO they were your everyday typical jrpg saturday morning cartoon villians till the got more fleshed out during Stormblood with the Garleans and Shadowbringers with the Ascians...or specifically Emet-Selch and Elidibus. I mean personally, they were fine in general back anyway, wasnt honestly expecting them much but was very surprised to understand them more in the later expansions which is where a lot of people got hooked into them it seems.

Once again this interviews proves the whole ancient plot line was hamfisted and ruined the plots setup by the pre-ShB expansions.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Most of Ishikawa's responses seem based, she even says she wrote Hermes figuring 80% of people would hate him. It also confirmed whatever she wrote originally wasn't accepted by the others and she had to rewrite it barely making it under the deadline. Granted, no details were given, but I had a feeling that was the case all throughout EW.

The main thing that bothers me is acting like Hermes (and I assume Venat by extension) ended up being a boon to humanity. There just isn't any evidence of this at all. The sundered still couldn't handle the Final Days and we went from the Ancient society to one in which wars are frequent, there's sex trafficking, and a myriad of other ills that didn't exist before because the Ancients might have gone the way of The Plenty? This was an absolute regression by every metric possible.

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It's not even plausible because he tries to hide the truth of it all in the process of administering his 'test' and actively thwarts knowledge of it. So whatever supposed side-benefit there is, it's no thanks to his own efforts.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Genuinely asking here. What WAS that first drew you to the Garleans and Ascians in ARR and in HW? IMO they were your everyday typical jrpg saturday morning cartoon villians till the got more fleshed out during Stormblood with the Garleans and Shadowbringers with the Ascians...or specifically Emet-Selch and Elidibus. I mean personally, they were fine in general back anyway, wasnt honestly expecting them much but was very surprised to understand them more in the later expansions which is where a lot of people got hooked into them it seems.

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They had an interesting and enjoyable presence whenever they appeared on screen and I liked their aesthetics. I figured that they'd eventually turn out to have deeper reasons for doing what they were doing - and in the case of the Garleans, that was evident as soon as the first lore book was released and revealed their backstory and motives. In a world where everything revolved around aether the idea of a race being unable to readily make use of it proved to be pretty fascinating to me. It was more relatable than a bunch of stuck up, self proclaimed 'heroes' who were granted special favours and empowered so that they, conveniently, could eventually get whatever result they wanted at the end of each day.

Back then, pretty much every nation and character was portrayed in a rather morally grey light. The game has since hastily retconned and resolved many of the original problems that plagued the various City States and made the leader figures and Scions see the player character as something other than a useful, powerful tool...but up until that point, the player character was ordered around with very little care or respect for their own desires or well being.

If that isn't enough, then my favourite Final Fantasy game happens to be Final Fantasy XII and the Garlean designs are heavily influenced by that, with a bit of Roman and Russian influence thrown in for good measure. I've long been fond of Roman history - especially living in Europe, where there's still plenty of signs of their contributions to everything from architecture to the arts. All of my interactions with Russians have been positive, too, over the years.Furthermore, much like how many wars happen due to complicated geopolitical events...so too is that the case in fictional fantasy settings. War sucks, but I don't see territorial disputes as 'good' and 'evil' - particularly not when Eorzea itself only prospers in large part as a consequence of the own wars that it, itself, waged throughout its existence. The Eorzeans were fully justified in seeking to fight off invaders stepping foot on their own soil but I daresay that the way in which Ul'dah chose to zombify a rival nation was far more chilling than how the Garleans handled things!

All in all, I like darker themes in the stories I invest in. Characters and factions who do whatever is necessary in order to survive resonate with me far more than those who lecture others endlessly on complicated moral issues whilst enjoying numerous plot devices that, conveniently, ensure that they never have to resort to the same desperate measures as those they are criticising.

This and the Matsuno interview has me a little worried. Given how misleading the lead up to ShB and EW was, I am wondering if the FF16 trailer is also misleading and if it is actually just going to be another JRPG adventure romp. Yoshida is the producer after all and can theoretically veto anything not to his tastes. If so, that would would be rather disappointing given that FF15 - flawed as it was - at least had balls. My only hope is that FF16 is being directed by Hiroshi Takai, who did The Last Remnant, which did at least have some grit. We shall see...

As for FFXIV 7.0, at this point I am hoping that it is actually just a generic adventure romp in a new land. It's clear we're never going to get anything serious like war or the occupation of countries again, and I don't think the team can handle grandiose themes like the fate of the universe or the nature of mankind or themes such as "despair" very well, so perhaps something less ambitious would work better for this project.