Can we have an honest conversation about the Scions? Dawn Trail

This should've been a Krile + G'raha + Erenville only expansion. With Wuk Lamat and maybe another new character as permanent dawntrail characters

You could then make Thancred and Urianger find their way there later.

1. Alphianaud and her sister are home to grow up now, leave them there
2. Y'shtola's trying to teleport to Runar's arms

I think there is also something to be said about the weird design decision that a lot of the scions “arcs” (if you can call them that) ended in the first and their only real justification to return was the fact they would have died otherwise

If they had left Y’shtola and thancred in the first, faded urianger into the background then had graha take over the “scions resident scholar” rather than fanboy I think that would have suited them much better

It would also give way more justification to return to the first more often considering they are already struggling to come up with reasons

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

What has fundamentally changed about urianger since ARR in terms of his impact on the story

He went from the quiet planning cunning Scholar who spoke like Shakespeare in ARR to exactly the same in EW but now he is an AST

I guess there is moonbreyda and the conclusion to that in labarynthos but honestly that reflected more on her character than his and she has been dead for 4 expansions

Gaius’s 2 travelling companions got more development in sorrows than half the scions

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Quite a lot for Urianger. In particular, there's been a noticeable change in the way he communicates with others, as well as a clarification of his social difficulties. The problem with the scions is that their development is less condensed, giving the impression that they are less well-developed than characters we don't see for as long.

But you can't set up such a dense narrative arc for the scions. You'd end up with different characters for each expansion.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Seeing your friends every few weeks still isn't "stalking" and being "glued" to you.

And the story is deliberately vague about time and not tracking it as it should be tracked. Sometimes they talk as if it really has been months since we last saw each other, but the game's artificial approach to time means that nobody has gotten any older.

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I would just add, if I were going to an entirely new place with unknowns and had the option to bring people who have been to the literal ends of the galaxy and back with me to assist in whatever endeavors I'd be up to...why wouldn't I bring them if they were available? Because I nEeD mAh SpAcE?

As some others in this thread, I'd much rather we left at least some of the Scions behind. I don't think they should disappear to never appear again (though I personally do feel that some of them should have died/stayed dead). They aren't bad characters but some/most have absolutely concluded their story arcs at this point and just need a rest. Heck, if we're going to be stuck on leaning on using existing characters as opposed to introducing new ones then maybe they should be using characters like Fordola that they've already introduced but have largely abandoned.

In short, the Scions are fine but continuing to force them into the A Plot is taking up narrative space and potential development for other, new characters. And Dawntrail would have been the absolute perfect set up to do just that, whether you buy into the "Scions disbanded" aspect or not.

(and some of the Scions are actually being hindered in their own personal development because of constantly being allowed to be around the WoL.. like Graha for instance)

I don't want the Scions to be killed off or something drastic, but yeah, if I'm honest, I find them some of the most boring characters in the game that take up all the space and screen time away from significantly more interesting side characters that get introduced, do something cool, and then are seen in maybe one other quest later, if we're lucky.

I think having *some* of the Scions come with us in Dawntrail, but not all of them, would have been good. Remember the start of HW, when WoL has only Alphinaud and Tataru with them from the Scions? That was a great moment for establishing that feeling of vulnerability and desperation going into the story. And sure, we meet back up with more of the Scions over the course of the game, but that gave Alphinaud in particular a really good chance for him to get some much needed character development away from all the other Scions. Or how Estinien sat out a majority of StB and ShB but was still there in the background doing things and helping, which made his presence in EW more enjoyable. Sometimes characters need to exit the stage for a while to let others shine, and even to let themselves shine at a later point. Maybe something like this will happen, DT isn't out yet, and there's usually a LOT that the CGI trailers don't show us that end up being a huge part of the story.

But I won't lie, the full trailer and the benchmark make the next expansion look like nothing more than "tropical vacation with your bestest buddies the Scions! Eat local food and go on a treasure hunt!!" had me feeling zero hype. It was only the teasing of Solution 9 as a form of "there's something mysterious going on here" that made me interested at all.

Late to the party but we are so close to Dawntrail and I realised that my wife and I never had less excitement for an expansion in all the history of FFXIV.
I am beeing playing FFXIV since the open Beta of ARR. In all that time the Scions didnt grew to me because I feel like only reson their existence ever served was a kind of a fanclub. For me, they are some of the least developed characters. Which is very strange because FFXIV did create some fantastic characters during its lifecycle.

[SPOILER]
- Gaius, at least during Shadowbringer. So sad they didnt used him more.
- Ardbert‘s story was fantastic and I really felt attached to him. His existence had also a meaning because he helped us through the endboss of Shadowbringers, while the scions - with exception of GrahaTia - just got whipped away like useless twigs.
- Emet Selch is loved by many and so do I.
- Hythlodaeus and Venat were amazing as well, a really likeable and wise person at the same time.
- Hermes twisted nature and as well Meteion were both likeable to interact.

All of them would have made fantastic companions but SE did leave them behind while „gifting“ us with an eternal bond with the Scions.

I rule out Yshtola and Estinien, the only scions I kinda like. But whats wrong with the others?
-Graha & Thancred both just had a bad developement tbh. Both were very enjoyable during Shadowbringers, especially Thancred during his Rin-protector-phase because he showed some self-purpose-ambition for the first time. But after leaving her behind he was reduced to his old „I am willing to fight for this world…for reasons.“-crap like most of the other Scions. And Graha Tia, geez had this boy a low fall from the great Crystal Exarch to the eternal President of WoL-Fanclub.
- Alisaie had a strong start but was reduced to the synonym of a japanese Tsundere so much see is just as annoying as her brother. Beside those mandatory quest in every expansion showing how much she likes to help others she is nothing but constantly nagging.
- Alphinaud….urgs. HW was supposed to be his redemption arc, but has he done anything that had an impact besides making speeches and bossing around like he is the leader? At least for me that is not the case.

Guys, did you ever consider the scions got the same treatment twice at the end of Shadowbringers and Endwalker?

„We stand beside you yadayada.“
- all of them get blown away completely useless - WoL stand here and summons 7 complete strangers to stop the villain.

Who‘s in for a bet how the Endfight of Endwalker will look like? My bucks goes to the Scions get blown out of the screen and WoL saves the day with 7 summoned strangers. [/SPOILER]


Ok, enough rant. Can I make a suggestion? Square Enix at least drop those annoying siblings and I can accept to travel with the rest of the fanclub at least for another expansion.

You leave Dadcred alone you hear me...

It's just business. Maybe back when XIV was still hungry for success, they could afford to kill a scion. But now that the game's consistently a heavy hitter whose funding helps create other games for the parent company, there are no more risks allowed because there're probably so many hands in the pudding. The story is a major selling point for this game for some reason. And in that context, the scions are more than just characters; they're a brand. People cheered themselves hoarse when Thancred appeared in the Dawntrail cinematic. Fangirls were falling all over each other when Urianger said some halfhearted Shakespearean crap. Catmoms cried when Graha bit into the taco. Imagine killing any of those characters off. You'd risk alienating those fans and their money. I'm not psychic of course, but I just can't see them risking it when they have to know that they don't really gain anything with it (outside of finally having a narrative with stakes) and only risk pissing off fans and then creating a lot of work by filling the gap left behind by whoever they killed. Hell, going off of fan reception for characters like Zero and Wuk, the writers probably doubt that they can even create a likeable main character again. And frankly, so do I. Zero was a test of my patience that didn't even pan out. Wuk's personality is grating (to me) and the fact that I'm forced to go along with her questionable antics even though it seems like unethical election tampering shadow-government CIA type stuff, left a horrible taste in my mouth.

I feel gross even writing this because I agree with you, OP, and I want to see an actual fresh start. But I think it's too late for this game. I sort of realized it at fanfest when I saw the insane fan reactions to these characters just existing. Like, there's no way Square will just get rid of that insane emotional grip they have on fans and their wallets. I think even if the writers at CBU3 wanted to, an exec would probably pressure them until they didn't or something. Last week I read an old book. In it, characters actually died. It was refreshing. As the reader, I was sad that they were gone, but it felt so good being on an adventure written by someone who didn't really care about just keeping me content so I would buy more stuff from them in the future.

Early on i noticed that they played this new expansion super safe where i would have liked a timeskip to get a Adult Twins, still a great symbol for a new age, and the retirement of a few scions. I mostly think of the old guard with Yshtola, Thancred and Uriange.
And refill it with new Characters. A few of my FC Mates wanted Zero as new Scion but predicted back then that while the chance is there its unlikely, my prediction was right.

There was no time skip or anything, all the scions are back on board, no gameplay shake ups in general super safe and sadly rather bland impression of the first expansion after the finished Saga.

Just to be clear i like the Scions but "Everything stays the same" and "new beginning" doesnt go hand in hand.