But, do we expect more skills to be added, let alone the kind that'd deserve their own buttons if we were already partly targeting of button efficiency in giving the option for consolidating inflexible combos?Quote:
Originally Posted by hagare
Apart from at most a single goodie per job, Shadowbringers and Endwalker did little more than recycle old buttons, trimming some bloat (Invigorate, etc.) and some vital capacities in favor of generic extensions of old skills or low-depth 'options' like AoE | ST shared variants of shared resource/CD skills.
Job action combos one button
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03-14-2022, 04:20 PMShurrikhan
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03-14-2022, 04:50 PMhagarewhat I'm expecting will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
more passives.
more changing skills like egress + regress, reaping etc etc.
either way, consolidation WILL happen after a time. If not out of convenience, out of necessity. Or the cooler term, streamlining.
Hell, story characters like Thancred and Hien already has it when we play them. -
03-14-2022, 06:02 PMShurrikhanI'd certainly take passives (especially, involved, mechanics-generating passives) over a recycle of former (and, historically, better) abilities in favor of tack-ons, but I don't think they've seen any reason to start better designing kits. As much as we might complain about certain skills or outcomes, we haven't presented a cohesive view of what would constitute better kits, let alone what capacities could be --or better function as-- passives or what we're unwilling to sacrifice for another expansion's worth of largely tack-on skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by hagare
Though it'd be more productive than consolidation alone if successful (not that we can't have both), asking for "meaningful kit mechanics" is a far harder banner to wave than simply to simply ask the devs to "give us the option to consolidate," and we've already seen the Monkey Paw outcomes of any more general changes to reduce button bloat. I say "harder" because our ideas of what makes for a meaningful mechanic are far more varied than our ideas of button bloat, and even the latter would see very different solutions.
Optional consolidation, though, could help us push that discussion up a step, in discussing what is and is not worth an obligatory separate button, offering us a crowbar for that more complex matter of what are meaningful kit mechanics and how to build around them.
Sorry, I'm sure I've made countless typos and little sense in my stupor by now, so let me just put it more directly:
We have yet to see the devs actively pursue any agenda, outside of response to the most popular points of feedback, to which consolidation would be a worthwhile step. At best, they respond to very specific consolidation requests in isolation, such as per Gnashing Fang before; there is no cohesive design philosophy surrounding such that has been (or is likely to be) revealed to us, be that by actions or direct developer commentary.
Perhaps consolidation, for instance, is something they'd look at doing only if/when it wouldn't leave the job with too little apparent depth; or perhaps it's acted on only if those already popular suggestions coincide with what they wanted to do anyways (e.g., doubling down on all things cartridge), such that they can seem responsive at the same time their cover their asses. We don't know. Without enough actions heading towards it or said commentary, we can't know.
As such, we're left to guess for ourselves whether matters like button efficiency, thematic design, etc., particularly matter to the devs. I do not have the time or wakefulness presently to situate all evidence that comes to mind, but when I consider the changes we've seen over the chain of expansions, I can't help but lean towards "no". Their priorities seem to be solidly on meeting presumed expectations: cool-looking new skills by which to briefly hype expansions, basic and increasingly straightforward capacity increases (seemingly for the nonetheless surface-depth tryhardcore players among us), and maybe a new gimmick or two the weaknesses of which will hopefully take a while to be popularly noted. None among button efficiency, depth, fluidity, identity, etc., are guiding principles; they are merely constraints insofar as a design may otherwise receive backlash.
But what does that mean for us? Simply put, that there is likely no existing momentum towards improved kits, and as such, if we want to see improvements, we'd need to promote certain steps that can be easily communicated and minimally misconstrued that will help situate the design considerations we'd want devs to eventually use regularly and meaningfully. While it might seem an isolated QoL matter, and such can help sell it, consolidation has significant value --and danger-- as a stepping-stone. Just barely behind it lie the questions of engagement through button-flow and button-efficiency, the both of which can meet to examine the quality of how much maximal depth and subjective engagement a kit offers. That can be huge.
But if it gets sold as anything but an option, then we could as easily be welcoming in yet more rarely used, convoluted, and/or "fluff" actions in place of button-flow valuable to some/many/most (a group who --like any other group bounded by a preference-- is hard to measure but whom we can assume, I think, is definitely larger than those who enjoy the likes of AoE|ST fluff actions in present contexts). That's not okay, and what it'd set up would be even less okay.
:: To try to wrap this up, optional consolidation, whether guised only as a QoL feature or in its full sense of both QoL and design scrutiny, can do a lot to push nearer a fruitful conversation about better kit and buttonflow design. It can be a force that would in turn cause other improvements down the line. Other topical changes may do likewise*, but I suspect this is one of the easier --or even the easiest-- of ways to get the ball rolling. If I had any sense that the devs were already pushing towards increased kit scrutiny (beyond the sense of funneling anything and everything towards minimally situational throughput --or, the most direct rDPS contribution possible), I would likely ask that we engage first with the cues and clues the devs are giving us, rather than pushing this policy forward unsupported by favorable contexts. But I see no trace of that. As such, I suspect WE need to start, even if just in some discrete way that can be easily bandied and bannered.
* (A QoL-seeming desire for movement skills like Elusive to check pathing and thereby not --just barely-- throw us off cliffs mid-combat could in turn unlock a plethora of interesting movement skills --set-distance cleaving charges, to-behind-target closers, etc.-- that could eventually reinvigorate the DDR aspects of boss fights, wherefrom others aspects of kit design might then ask for, and try to tap into, that degree or style of "fun", for instance.)
/rant
My apologies for whatever errors I've left here. I will edit this as needed when I am less tired and thereby more lucid, even if we're already pages further along. -
03-14-2022, 06:29 PMhagareexpansions will most likely have new skills/adjustments to existing skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
They don't need to have an agenda, it'll happen simply because it's a new expansion, therefore we must have new or improved stuff.
Just imagine the complaints if a new expansion only upgrades potency old skills.
I mean, just count how many skills have been removed since ARR.
as for what I want from bloat removal from current state, I just want them to stack the skills that only increases potency with each combo. -
03-14-2022, 11:27 PMRansuQuote:
Originally Posted by hagare
And that will be the day I quit playing this game. -
03-15-2022, 08:46 AMKolsykol
The reason why Thancred and Hien are like that tho is because they're meant to be easy for people that have never played GNB or SAM before ( and also so EVERYONE can clear the content ).
If anything I wish they added more skills to them and made them more like the real Jobs on Normal and made them what they are right now on Easy. -
03-15-2022, 08:49 AMMikey_RTaking that literally, that is your Full Thrust combo from Dragoon and Aeolian Edge combo from Ninja, every other combo does more than just 'add damage'. You could technically add Reaper's combo in there as each hit adds the same gauge.Quote:
Originally Posted by hagare
Again, however, I ask, what can they realistically add? The GCDs for jobs are fixed in what they can do, how often they are used that adding something else is going to throw everything out of whack.
You cannot add another combo to Samurai, for example, as it would just delay your Iaijutsus, unless you want this combo to also grant a Sen, at which point, you have just made a redundant combo. There is similar arguments for every job and, unless they rework the job, I highly doubt you are going to see anything substantial in regards to GCDs. As for oGCDs, again, people tend to not enjoy a button that just does damage. It needs to have another effect or be used as the result of building up some gauge. If you keep adding things in, at what point do they start to feel tacked on?
I highly suspect there is going to be a fair amount of job reworks coming, which is where the devs can go back to the start and build from the bottom up. They have already eluded to this for BLM for example.
As for the claim that jobs that only get updated moves are going to breed complaints, that is going to depend on how they do it. PLD for example, everything they got is just action upgrades, Sheltron > Holy Sheltron, Spirit's Within > Expiacion, even the Blade Combo is just the Goring Blade combo, yet, it still feels good to use. As someone who uses PLD a lot, it still felt different enough and it also bought a different mindset, ie. an extra 3 GCDs we can stay at ranged, Expiacion can be used as a pulling tool when in dungeons as it is now AoE etc. The only thing I wish they would have done was an upgrade for Circle of Scorn.
Whilst Monk was reworked, technically, all Monk gets from 81-90 is action upgrades. SMN comes close as it just allows the use of Gemshine with Primals, MCH really only gets Chain Saw as a new action etc. When you actually look at what was added across all jobs, most are just QoL/action upgrades with a couple of new actions. So, I would not say that just adding action upgrades is bad, as long as, for the most part, they do add something extra to the action it upgrades and not necessarily just damage. -
03-15-2022, 09:20 AMShurrikhanThat seems an odd limit to set. It'd account for almost nothing. Technically, it'd only even amount to Aeolian Edge, as Full Thrust (+2) ultimately procs Draconian Fire, Storm's Path generates gauge, Royal Authority procs Sword Oath (the Atonement casts from which can be split off), etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by hagare
And, in turn, "more [not solely, just more] of a given expansion's added capacities and functions to be granted via passives (specifically not merely potency-increasing traits, as mentioned on prior pages)," as opposed to being given through ability pruning and recycling, is where you draw the line?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
There is no version where you get more buttons of actions and retain a given button count cap (as the devs themselves have said constrains them) without pruning or consolidating. Given that, Hagare is right that consolidation may be necessary if we are to avoid losing further key abilities and further squelching the leveling experience. One might even, quite reasonably, say that being anti-consolidation without expecting further actions or specifically contesting the devs in regard to button count caps will generally be, in effect, pro-pruning. -
03-15-2022, 11:03 AMRansu
I have no problems with their current approach recently of simply upgrading skills to new animations and potency increases. I'd rather that approach to maintaining things over cutting my input list in half because people can't bother to learn how to keyboard and want to lazily press 1 key.
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03-15-2022, 11:03 AMhagarehow have you not quit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
We've already lost skills.
just in 6.0:
PLD Enhanced Requiescat
AST lost sects and sleeve draw
BLM lost enochian and sleep
SMN Bio, Summon, Miasma, Egi Assault, Summon II, Bio II, Bane, Summon III, Egi Assault II, Enkindle, Tri-disaster, Aetherpact, Devotion, Bio III, Miasma III, and Firebird Trance
DRG dragon blood sigh. I'm gonna miss blue aura on demand
SAM Merciful Eyes and Hissatsu: Seigan
WHM Fluid aura
SCH Sic
MNK Fists of Earth, Fists of Wind, Shoulder Tackle, and Fists of Fire
maybe I shoulda said, "what I'm expecting will happen, again"
and yet, here you are xD
PS: There's a youtube vid about the leaving skills/effect in EW xD
again, your APM doesn't change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
Yeah, It's just the skills that I see can be collapsed without changing the class too much. SE's gone much further than what I'm asking for xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Didn't PLD use to have shield oath?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
An interchangeable stance with sword oath?
and it happened before 6.0