Is anyone else dying to get to Garlemald?

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I have this vague recollection that the XIVth were responsible for taking over (or rather, re-establishing themselves in) the Castrums after the Battle of Cartenau, by executing whatever remnants of the VIIth legion were still there. I'm not sure if this is canon, though.

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Those Castri did not even exist before the Calamity though - there was only a single castra established in Eorzea in the Sixth Astral Era located in Mor Dhona (Castrum Novus), that was Nael van Darnus's base of operations. Castrum Novus was destroyed in the Calamity, being sited right next to Carteneau, and following that when Gaius and the XIVth seized land throughout Eorzea to build new castri he simply took over what was left of Castrum Novus and rebuilt it into a new castra, renaming it in the process (Castrum Centri).

It's highly likely the surviving VIIth troops, if any, were simply absorbed into the XIVth, but it's equally likely they all died at Carteneau, given their zealous devotion to Nael.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Those Castri did not even exist before the Calamity though - there was only a single castra established in Eorzea in the Sixth Astral Era located in Mor Dhona (Castrum Novus), that was Nael van Darnus's base of operations. Castrum Novus was destroyed in the Calamity, being sited right next to Carteneau, and following that when Gaius and the XIVth seized land throughout Eorzea to build new castri he simply took over what was left of Castrum Novus and rebuilt it into a new castra, renaming it in the process (Castrum Centri).

It's highly likely the surviving VIIth troops, if any, were simply absorbed into the XIVth, but it's equally likely they all died at Carteneau, given their zealous devotion to Nael.

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I'm going to do some tea-leaf reading on the specific language used in the lorebook:

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea, pg 54

Meanwhile, having watched the battle unfold from the deck of an imperial airship, Legatus Gaius van Baelsar, commander of the XIVth Legion, saw an opportunity. Upon withdrawing to Ala Mhigo with the remainder of his fleet, he sent troops to Mor Dhona's Castrum Novum, with orders to execute the remnants of van Darnus's VIIth Legion and secure the fortress for the XIVth. From there they dispatched cohorts to La Noscea, Thanalan, the Black Shroud, and Coerthas, and upon the lands they claimed were built many new castra.

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So we know that there were still members of the VIIth Legion at Castrum Novum, and enough of it was still standing for the XIVth to "secure". It is also implied from the wording that Castrum Novum, to be renamed Castrum Centri, was not considered one of the "many new castra".

If we're being totally pedantic, it might be more accurate to say that Gaius believed there were still members of the VIIth etc, and he gave orders with that belief.

(Completely unrelated, but we do meet a few survivors of the VIIth Legion. Apart from Kan-E-Senna's bodyguard, there's also the deserter living near Wineport. And then there are the deserter's former comrades, who tried to kill him. It is implied that apart from Kan-E-Senna's bodyguard, none of them are altogether sane anymore.)

One bit that does puzzle me is where the lorebook includes the Black Shroud as one of the places a new castrum was built. The only castrum in the Shroud is Castrum Oriens, which to my recollection is built around Baelsar's Wall. As in Baelsar's Wall is effectively part of Castrum Oriens, or Castrum Oriens is part of Baelsar's Wall; they're basically synonymous.

In the lorebook map, however, Castrum Oriens is built on the Shroud side of Baelsar's Wall. I suppose we can blame simplified map stylism, but it would be odd for Baelsar's Wall, built soon after the Battle of Silvertear Skies, to not have a castrum built into it, simply for defence. A static wall isn't very much deterrence, after all.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

(Completely unrelated, but we do meet a few survivors of the VIIth Legion. Apart from Kan-E-Senna's bodyguard, there's also the deserter living near Wineport. And then there are the deserter's former comrades, who tried to kill him. It is implied that apart from Kan-E-Senna's bodyguard, none of them are altogether sane anymore.)

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It was my understanding that Drest, the marooned Juggernaut pilot in Raincatcher Gully was actually a member of the XIVth, as he was actually assigned to nearby Castrum Occidens (his Juggernaut was shot down by the Maelstrom, which is presumably the wrecked Juggernaut in the nearby swamp) - of course that doesn't preclude that he was not formerly part of the VIIth as well, but the main thing is, he was targeted for death because he deserted, as you mentioned (lacking the lorebook I only have in-game information and info from other sites to go on). Either way, he deserted because he hates being forced to fight for a cause he does not believe in (having come from another land, presumably Othard), and just wants to return to his family.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

One bit that does puzzle me is where the lorebook includes the Black Shroud as one of the places a new castrum was built. The only castrum in the Shroud is Castrum Oriens, which to my recollection is built around Baelsar's Wall. As in Baelsar's Wall is effectively part of Castrum Oriens, or Castrum Oriens is part of Baelsar's Wall; they're basically synonymous.

In the lorebook map, however, Castrum Oriens is built on the Shroud side of Baelsar's Wall. I suppose we can blame simplified map stylism, but it would be odd for Baelsar's Wall, built soon after the Battle of Silvertear Skies, to not have a castrum built into it, simply for defence. A static wall isn't very much deterrence, after all.

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Well, 1.0 stated that there was a Wall sealing Ala Mhigo off from the rest of Eorzea even before then, although the exact time it was built is unclear, it would have probably been not that long after the Empire's annexation of the city. It was never called anything other than simply 'the Wall' and that the Ala Mhigan Resistance acted as a kind of Underground Railroad guiding refugees out of the city under it to freedom in Eorzea.. at least until the Resistance's ill-fated attempt to steal a Garlean airship and turn it against the XIVth in Ala Mhigo (Gaius single-handedly wiped the entire Resistance cell out).

As far as 1.0 went Castrum Oriens did not exist physically or was not even mentioned at all, so I'm liable to take it that the Wall preceded Castrum Oriens' construction (by all accounts Garlean engineering is very adaptable and can be quickly constructed and modified with little effort, being mechanized and all, so this does not seem surprising). But if the lorebook says differently, I'd take that as a retcon. The castrum on the Ala Mhigan side of the border also being called Castrum Oriens may just have been for consistency's sake, rather than having any lore reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It was my understanding that Drest, the marooned Juggernaut pilot in Raincatcher Gully was actually a member of the XIVth

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Oh, you're right. I mistook Drest's mission as one from the VIIth around the time of Cartenau, since he was already in Eastern La Noscea for some time when Shamani stumbled across him. But checking the dialogue, the mission where he was shot down was three years ago, so well after Cartenau.

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As far as 1.0 went Castrum Oriens did not exist physically or was not even mentioned at all, so I'm liable to take it that the Wall preceded Castrum Oriens' construction (by all accounts Garlean engineering is very adaptable and can be quickly constructed and modified with little effort, being mechanized and all, so this does not seem surprising). But if the lorebook says differently, I'd take that as a retcon. The castrum on the Ala Mhigan side of the border also being called Castrum Oriens may just have been for consistency's sake, rather than having any lore reasoning.

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The lorebook actually agrees with you, which was why I was skeptical of the lorebook at first. Silvertear stopped the Empire's advance, so the Garleans constructed Baelsar's Wall and huddled behind it. After that, then the Garleans constructed Castrum Oriens.

The map provided in that section has the symbol for Castrum Oriens a small but noticeable distance from the symbol representing Baelsar's Wall, though. There are also arrows connecting all the castrums, mostly emanating from Castrum Centri to the others except Castrum Oriens, and having an arrow go from Ala Mhigo to Castrum Centri. It would make sense for these to be supply lines.

The arrow pointing to Castrum Oriens comes from Baelsar's Wall, right next to it. The implication is that Castrum Oriens, clearly in Shroud territory, is supplied by Baelsar's Wall.

Which is not exactly wrong, but in the Baelsar's Wall dungeon, we see a full Garlean stronghold, worthy of being called a castrum, built around that wall, and people refer to it as Castrum Oriens. And since there is also a Castrum Oriens on the Gyr Abania side of Baelsar's Wall, it would mean either Castrum Oriens is right next to Baelsar's Wall on the Ala Mhigan side (and so not quite in "Eorzean territory" as the passage from the lorebook states), or Castrum Oriens is built around Baelsar's Wall, incorporating it into its design. Which would in fact fit with both the lorebook and what we see, but again, I find it difficult to believe that Gaius waited until after the Battle of Cartenau to begin fortifying the Wall.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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Both Nael and Zenos were (in)famous in the Imperial military for killing or at least brutalizing their own subordinates. It's not like their misconduct was unknown; yet they stayed in power, Nael enacting the Meteor Project with Imperial support (under Solus) and Zenos having been given Ala Mhigo to rule despite the Emperor, his father, acknowledging his monstrosity. (Doma I will give him a pass on, since the whole "might makes right" shtick and Zenos did put down an uprising there.) I find it very difficult to believe the Emperor would not know how the legates of his Legions conduct themselves, esp. Zenos since he is Varis' son - he knowingly and willingly put a man he acknowledges as a "monster" into a position of political power.

Varis had to defend Regula from detractors because they believed him unfit for the position he was given; unlike all the other legates, van Hydrus earned his position instead of it being handed to him thanks to the Empire's social structure. (I thought the Empire was meritocratic?) Given Varis had to defend Regula from the other legates and he is a former legatus himself, I find it difficult to believe he would not have a good read on his legates. Nael and Meteor cannot be blamed on Varis since he wasn't Emperor, nor do I do so; however I do indirectly blame Varis for everything Zenos did, as while he did condemn Zenos' character we have no condemnation from him in regards to Zenos' activities. I'd very much like to believe power politics are in play here - it would make things much more interesting.

Ultimately what it comes down to is that, if the ruler of a military dictatorship dislikes how his military is operating, he will do something about it. To our knowledge Varis has not. It is too early to tell how exactly he runs the military, since we have seen only two legates under his command - one of was a halfway decent man and professional soldier, the other was batshit crazy and a really, really poor statesman. Again, what we have seen of it so far is pretty dysfunctional. Speculation is of little value.

Gaius and Nael can't be blamed on Varis, and Regula's men betraying him is largely beyond his control. Zenos, on the other hand...

And, other than the Warrior of Light raiding the Castra to kill Imperials for their Zodiac Weapon (which I admit is a really, really shady thing to do), the only record we have of anyone bothering the XIVth's stragglers is... again, the Warrior of Light, who infiltrated Castrum Occidens to gain access to the Binding Coil of Bahamut and started tearing it up in Castrum Centri to save a captured and wounded Crystal Brave by drawing attention to themselves.

Even if the empire is big, a leader that does nothing against some big horrible things is still a bad leader. He may not have been there for project meteor but he still should have known about all the experiments that went on (with one experiment even having the Garlean third eye) and should have put an end to it. (Gridanias comment was definitely not about turning a blind eye to human experiments but more that you cant help every single citizen in your city.) But as someone that sees Genocide of whole races as one way to go against the primal treat (that the Garlean sure had a hand in creating too, even if they did not want to) I have the feeling that hes not against such methods too as long as it achieves the task. (Not saying that this is a fact..but more my feeling that I get from him.)

He knows that his son is a monster but like Lyse said, nobody is born like that. So something in Garlemald made him that way and parents often have a great influence over their children. Also if he knew that he was a monster he knew that this could be bad for those two countries but sent him anyway.

It might be that he does not know about everything that happens in his empire but if he doesnt know about those things that happened in SB..well thats no good sign for a long running stable empire either.

@Zodiac Weapon: I do find the whole relict weapon quest lines to be utterly creepy..not only all the soul farming but also creating new life to make it fight on our side..(and having Rowena selling these things to other people..) If they had shown people being opposed to it or maybe even given us the choice to say "thats horrible.." or something, I would have felt like they wanted to show us that its a shady deal..but somehow everyone is completely fine with that which means that nobody is even questioning what they are doing..so if it was SEs intend to show a bad side of us they did it badly imo..because it was never shown ingame that its bad. I really hope that they will get away from such a thing in the future quest lines..

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Also I am only going to post about Garlemald stuff here since this is a topic about Garlemald itself. So people will not feel that this is going all over the lore forum. (Even if it was mainly in only two threads anyway)

Lyse is hardly the epitome of knowledge on such matters. Her comment was referring more to the simple fact that Zenos was, at one point, a child and thus harmless. That does not necessarily mean he became a monster through outside circumstances - some people are simply born broken due to health defects. Yoshi-P even stated that the intention for Zenos was to create an antagonist that 'nobody would sympathise with' and as such it wouldn't make sense to give him a tragic background if that was the intention. He has, at no point, shown any redeeming qualities - and even proved to be a liability to Garlemald itself as shown through both his words and his actions.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That does not necessarily mean [Zenos] became a monster through outside circumstances - some people are simply born broken due to health defects.

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Ah, but you see, psychological states are a mixture of nature and nurture. It's not just him having been born a psychopath that is the issue - it's that nobody did anything to curb his excesses, his father even giving him military and political power in spite of such a defect. A psychopath has no business running two provinces or a military unit; Zenos did both, and though Varis condemned his character he still did nothing about his activities.

A healthier upbringing could have possibly reduced Zenos' psychopathy, and even if it did keeping him out of the military would have been better for everyone. (I can't enlist because of a similar reason, though my psychological shortcoming is far more benign and I even was enlisted for 3.5 years.) Lyse's expressed tabula rasa philosophy isn't entirely correct, but it's not entirely incorrect either.

I hope it wasn't my original comment about the Garleans being pushed around and picked on because they had no magic that led to any of this acrimony! I'd like to make it clear immediately that I was putting that forward as a 'reason' for their behaviour - one that we can possibly understand even though we don't condone it - rather than an 'excuse'. There's a very real difference. IMO there is no excuse for becoming a bully and worse even if you've been bullied (although I can understand that is the reason some people do become bullies).

We're still on shaky ground in some areas though ... I'm prepared to accept, for example, that some Garleans (Gaius for example) genuinely believe that their mission to rid the world of primals (and possibly any kind of religious belief) is the right & moral path; that the Eorzeans are deluded and superstitious fools if they resist this. I am NOT saying that Gaius IS right, just that he - and many other Garleans too probably - thinks he is. So we're up against a conflict of moral imperatives. We believe (the Eorzeans) that we're right to resist and to encourage and help those who also wish to resist. But Gaius & others like him think that just shows how misguided & foolish we are. They think they have a moral mission to teach us the error of our ways. Imposing your belief system by force is something I find personally unacceptable, but then I have to be VERY careful to make sure I'm not guilty of doing exactly the same ...

Also I was profoundly disturbed by Xenos & his storyline. I thought he was brilliantly written. I loathed him. And yet at the same time something about him moved me deeply. I pitied him very much. I couldn't help imagining some horrendous childhood (which is of course no more an excuse for monstrosity in his case than in Yotsoyu's) that made me want to inflict severe physical violence on his father! And his suicide horrified me. If i could have saved him at that point, I would have, even if he turned around and betrayed my 'kindness' in the next second. I was very very conflicted about Zenos, and i guess that's added to my ambivalence about the Empire. I just don't see wiping out the entire Garlean nation as a solution (or in the least bit practical)

But I'm thrilled that the story has all these nuances instead of being WoL and friends = good guys, Garlemald = bad guys

EDIT; I blame Lyse and her comment about Xenos being a baby once for my reluctant sympathy for him ...

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Originally Posted by Elladie

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Don't be too hard on yourself. This was the product of a long-smoldering disagreement and SE providing tinder with an expansion's story centered around the Empire being the villains antagonists turned it into a conflagration. I fully anticipated such a thing happening, and being totally honest was hopeful it would so the issue could be put to a decisive end. Instead we just ended up beating the same old trail because Zenos dismissed Imperial philosophy.

The difference between Eorzea and the Garlean Empire is that the Eorzeans don't try to forcefully impose their belief systems on the Empire. Eorzea was totally fine leaving the Empire to its own devices, even after the fall of Ala Mhigo, until the Empire tried to invade. That is where the conflict comes from. Our every battle against the Empire has been in self-defense - even Rhalgr's Beacon, unless you believe Zenos would not have answered the incident on Baelsar's Wall with blood and fire.

The ironic thing is that in trying to do good, the Empire has done nothing but made everything worse. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, after all.

Zenos was unsympathetic for 99% of the story, but I admit I felt some twinge of sympathy for him in his final moments. I have my own psychological shortcoming that makes it difficult to make friends as well, and having moved around a lot never developed a deep bond or friendship with anyone. Still have that problem. Woulda saved him if I could.

Nobody's endorsing the dismantling of the Empire or the death of all its citizens. They just want to stop being threatened with invasions and genocide. That's all they really ask for.