#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Anyone who wants to have 'more healing required' as the solution to pursue to make Healers more engaging, I have a series of questions.



Also, anyone who wants 'more healing required', hey, Cataclysm Classic is out. You can go try 'more healing required' over there if you like

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This is really just indicating that they've designed themselves into a hole where there is no easy fix.

If they increase healer DPS actions, they will either have to nerf the overall potency of the actions so you're pushing more buttons for the same amount of DPS (Which would feel kind of terrible) or scale up the enemy HP to account for increased healer DPS contribution (Which would be much more of an endeavor but not leave people feeling like they're working harder for less).

If you increase the healing requirements, then you have to worry about all of the mentioned.

The former is still probably the more eloquent solution because it increases engagement for higher skill players without affecting the bottom line much.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

This is really just indicating that they've designed themselves into a hole where there is no easy fix.

If they increase healer DPS actions, they will either have to nerf the overall potency of the actions so you're pushing more buttons for the same amount of DPS (Which would feel kind of terrible) or scale up the enemy HP to account for increased healer DPS contribution (Which would be much more of an endeavor but not leave people feeling like they're working harder for less).

If you increase the healing requirements, then you have to worry about all of the mentioned.

The former is still probably the more eloquent solution because it increases engagement for higher skill players without affecting the bottom line much.

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yeah, I have a very heavy suspicion that the job revamp and identity they have planned for 8.0... will not be pretty, or well received. with power creep and everything to be considered, and the corner they have painted themselves into... I predict much ugliness will be had

I'm honestly pretty tired of seeing people trot out the tired "If you want more healing/damage buttons, then you don't do harder content".

Again, 58% of my GCDs were used on Broil IV in DSR on-content. 58%. On one button. That isn't even a heal. And I wasn't even close to optimised.

If you want more proof of the game's lack of difficulty making players never learn how to play the game: I was just in a level 90 extreme party where one of the tanks never mitigated a single tankbuster and would always die in one hit due to them regularly having 7 vuln stacks before each buster. How can you make it to max level extreme trials without learning how to press rampart?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm honestly pretty tired of seeing people trot out the tired "If you want more healing/damage buttons, then you don't do harder content".

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This, it's entirely dismissive.

There's also the inverse problem where an experienced healer suggests changes and people shoot that down because "well you don't have a casuals experience with it".

I started playing in Stormblood and know how much fun I had with SCH and AST back then, and how frustrating it was when ShB came around. I don't need to play ultimates to know what I disliked about the direction healers have gone in.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

1) Healing should be fun for everyone, not just the high-end. Jobs should still feel relevant in "easy" content. Dungeons were easy in HW. But healers felt critical back then. The mechanics in damage output in HW dungeons aren't higher than EW dungeons. In fact they are actually often much lower. But healing was way more important back then. Healerless HW dungeon runs can't be pulled off by random midcore players.

3) I agree that encounter design should be reworked as well, but job design is still the principal problem because we have very simple points of comparison: HW dungeons required far more healing during that era, while EW dungeons do not. Both were not mechanically complex at all. The job kits on healers back in HW also meant that there were many things you can do to optimize your job even if all the mechanics were simple, which added to the fun.

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Truthfully, I'm struggling a bit to follow your train of thought here. You say that dungeons in HW were easy, but healers still felt critical. You say that mechanic damage output in HW was similar to EW, but HW required far more healing. That HW dungeons weren't complex, but a midcore group could not pull off a healerless dungeon run.

These statements are honestly just reaffirming my point that the main culprit is the battle content. As all of the jobs have gotten stronger, a lot of the content has not kept pace. Healers have so many tools, but nothing to use them on. Instead of trying to go back to "the good old days", I'd prefer to move forward with the current philosophy surrounding job design and see how else players can be engaged.

Interviews from the recent Media Tour have said that they are planning to focus more on job identity starting next expansion (and possibly during the patches leading up to it), so maybe you'll get your wish with added complexity to the Healer jobs. I just hope to god they don't start heading back to where the game was in HW/ARR. I personally didn't raid during those times, but from everything I've heard and read, the best words I can use to describe it are "obtuse" and "inconsistent". Some jobs didn't even function properly and were not even allowed in a group.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

2) You didn't seem to have done high-end content before ShB. You probably don't have first-hand experience with how much more optimization there was in HW/SB healing, and how much more skill you required back then.

If you want to look up my logs feel free to pop into the Discord and I'll prove to you my rank 4 AST in SB.

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As an aside, I did raid during StB (starting playing in HW casually) on a different character. But that's not really important and I'd rather not get into a measuring contest.

As someone who's probably only played Warrior over a thousand dungeons spanning all across the expansions, I never thought I'd be telling people in Expert Roulette to just "Focus on DPSing, don't bother healing me."
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE blood(bed)whetting(wetting). But it is kind of concerning that me and my friends just queue duty roulettes as 3 dps and 1 tank, because we end up having either just enough sustain or resistances to take everything out before it takes me out.

Also I hate playing healers, because as OP listed in the manifesto, SHIT'S BORING !

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Originally Posted by RhodesToRome

Truthfully, I'm struggling a bit to follow your train of thought here. You say that dungeons in HW were easy, but healers still felt critical.

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HW dungeons are easy, but healers felt critical because without healers everyone would die. A healer forgetting to heal means everyone would die.

Yes, pressing Medica II every once in a while was easy, but if you did not do it everyone would die. That's why the content can be easy but the job is still critical.

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Originally Posted by RhodesToRome

You say that mechanic damage output in HW was similar to EW, but HW required far more healing.

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Yes, because tanks and DPS had very little self-sustain. On top of that your healing oGCDs were also much more limited and less powerful, which means you required far more healing casts and healing actions.

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Originally Posted by RhodesToRome

That HW dungeons weren't complex, but a midcore group could not pull off a healerless dungeon run.

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Yes? It is not hard to heal a dungeon and making sure everyone stays alive. They weren't complex. But because tanks and DPS had little self-sustain, most people couldn't pull off a healerless dungeon run. Not sure how much simpler I can explain this. Was it hard to heal through Cutter's Cry? Was Cutter's Cry a hard dungeon? OK, go try it healerless. It'll be far harder than doing any of the EW dungeons healerless.

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Originally Posted by RhodesToRome

Instead of trying to go back to "the good old days", I'd prefer to move forward with the current philosophy surrounding job design and see how else players can be engaged.

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When content and job design are regressing, going back to the "good old days" is a positive. The old days were good. There is nothing wrong with pining for the good old days when the game was more engaging in the past. The current philosophy is something even Yoshi P regrets pursuing. Even the developer team does not want to move forward with the current philosophy. They want to go back, maybe not entirely to SB but it still shows that there is merit to the "good old days".

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Originally Posted by RhodesToRome

I personally didn't raid during those times, but from everything I've heard and read, the best words I can use to describe it are "obtuse" and "inconsistent".

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OK, maybe you believe /r/ffxivdiscussion or somewhere else is the pinnacle of quality gameplay discussion and so believe everything you've read. But I've seen absolutely NO ONE make an effort to disentangle HW's objectively poor job clunkiness, horrible job QoL like stance switching on tanks, and pointless systems like accuracy, versus the superior job identity, higher skill ceilings, engaging and unique gameplay like SMN's DoT extension or AST's time mage gameplay. It's easy to dismiss the pining for HW/SB as rose-tinted glasses, but it's much harder for people to justify why the positive aspects of the previous expansions cannot be brought back into modern FF14. It's so hard that nobody ever tries to tackle it and resort to the lazy attempt to dismiss everything as nostalgia.

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Originally Posted by RhodesToRome

But that's not really important and I'd rather not get into a measuring contest.

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OK?

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Originally Posted by RhodesToRome

I've also simultaneously been looking up people's characters to see what kind of content they are engaging in. And, to no surprise, the vast majority of the players complaining here are not doing high end content (Savage, Ultimate, and Criterion Savage). Maybe some Extremes here and there, but for the most part they do not seem to be raiding.

As someone who has healed Savage and some Ultimate, I do not share most of the sentiments voiced in this post.

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Since i have made my arguments to my Friends/FC. But have only really given a snipet of my opinion here. i will share my two cents. just so it is in the archive of posts. Feel free to quote it, but i will be unlikely to respond to anything that does quote my opinion. (yes there are spelling & punctuation mistakes. and i apologize for it.)

I've already signed my name, but i'll do it again since this is a newer post.

+1 to petition
Saito Soji - Coeurl.


There is Reasoned logic in what we are asking for. & There is some over the top requests i think are a little too much to hope for, ...perhaps in some peoples mind would be nice, but ultimately might damage the purpose of the strike argument.

Over the course of the last 4 expansions healers have been stripped of the individuality. The "homogenization" we are referring to isn't simply limited to healers. All roles are being affected by it. But i'll leave that for another argument entirely.

1.) The damage abilities that SOME of our disillusioned posters in these threads, are requesting; i disagree with you. There's no FURTHER need for MORE damage based skills and abilities on the healing classes. We have enough. Outside of the increase of potency and replacement abilities we get each expac., we don't need more of them. so please. stop asking for them.

Because rightly, and i've said this many many many many many MANY times in the past as more and more of the healers kit has been nullified. The image of healers is presented for High end raids. NOT casual content. Which needs to change. We are limited to spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 (dps skills) and then maybe a heal every 2 minutes. which is nonsense. This needs to be changed. Healers as a role, should be healing at casual level content. not damaging.

If, for the sake of argument (because i know someone is going to bring it up, or have an ego large enough to say they are one, play devils advocate), we are in the presence of a 1% player, then fine, yea sure, dps to your hearts content. But the VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME, that will not be the case. i'm not specifically talking about the 1% in this game. because in that case, they are already comfortable and confident in their capabilities to begin with.

We are currently stuck in a position of dps first and foremost, and healing as an after thought. when in reality, we should be healing first and foremost; with dps as an afterthought.
a.)--> this could be achieved with increasing the difficulty on dungeons a little bit. Not so much to create a disparity for the casual player base, but enough to challenge people. While at the same time, our other end of the spectrum, creates an even more challenging & engaging time for the Hardcore population who thrive off of this anyway

b.)--> toning down other roles self sustain slightly, so that they are more reliant on healers actually doing their job. I am no stupid enough to ask for their self sustain to be removed entirely. this is pointless, stupid and forces players to play in specific manners which the devs DO NOT WANT to do. What it COULD do, is lower the potency of these self sustains, to the point that, in parties, it creates more reliability on healers to do their job rather than restore half to the entirety of their health bars and leaving the healer effectively cucked.
c.)--> **Most Important** establishing a far more indepth form of tutorial or Hall of the Novice; while also bringing it to the forefront of the game when a player first starts, so that they are effectively teaching newer generations of healers what they are actually supposed to be doing when they are in DF or random groups (basically anywhere outside of friend group). (Seperate note -> The Hall of Novice needs a revamp anyway, this is a good excuse for devs to do so)
d.)--> Taking a more indepth stance with the healer jobs, they COULD infact, revert to the old healer class actions & abilities. Bringing back cleric stance & giving Astro their original cards back would be a damn good start. Neither of these would interfere with current specs nor would it become intrusive to other party mechanics. It would actually distinguish again, who is doing their intended job and who isn't. Which is what should be the case to begin with.

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There is obviously still the issue of those already in the healer ranks who still don't know their job (or refuse to applicably be a real healer), and to them i would have to honestly say, relearn the role. Go through healer again with the changes we are arguing for and actually spend the time healing instead of prioritizing damage. *(this is a copium request but still one that needs to be said)*