Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Chrome_Aerial

okay while i agree on several of ur comments.

i never said she was a disney princess stuck in her castle. i mentioned things with the word MOSTLY or MOST.
she goes out hunting is fine and all but hunting is not meeting people or learning cultures. its literaly the locating and killing of a prey. wich most likely she did only with landsguard members or other hunters.
if she went out to talk to people so often then how is it she is so ignorant about their cultures and lifestyles? it just shows that she didn't do that to begin with. you cannot socialize with people and not learn jack shit about them unless you literaly aren't listening to what people have to say to you. people find her approachable because she is the only Promise that talks back. (and most of those who mentioned she is approachable are those IN tuliyollal and thus WITHIN the city walls)

yes i blame her father because if he wanted his children to take the throne he should have prepared them much better on what is required to be a dawnservant and not just tell them to go out and find out yourselves. its your job as a parent to prepare your kids for the harsh world outside the city walls. and he failed at that. he's a cool guy. but gulool ja ja isn't a great father when it comes to teaching his kids how fucked up the world really is. they just had to see for themselves.

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Disney princes was just a over the top comment.

That's what I'm saying. She went out and talked to people so why does she know nothing about them? Is she ignorant?
No, its because of bad writing. There is no deeper meaning besides that.
We absolutely do know that she did that, that she talked with people.
She knew the taco seller and the Mamool Ja next to him who also seleld food.
She knew the PeluPelu who crafted her axe.
When told at the beginning of the two guards that "they would like to keep coming to her and talk" she responded with "I wouldn't want to have it any other way because I love talking with my people" (in one form or another).
So she really actually interacted with her people before we arrived in DT otherwise they wouldn't be so lax about approaching her.

Yes Galool JaJa had a terrible aproach to the Dawnservant thing and made mistakes but no... the children not respecting the people and cultures are their own fault. These arent little children. They are short of adults.
They can and should think for themself even more so if tehy want to rule a country.

I liked both lyse and Zero. She the strong axes behind the throne. Galool Jaja probably still saw them as children at point of death. A father that shelter his children. Aleast her brother has a good head. I think that it was wrong for both her and Alexander ruler. Galool Jaja approaching to exposed them to outside the city state was good one too. There alot comparison to Diana ie wonder woman yet Diana is still smart by gift of Athena

Just came to this thread to share some thoughts. I played through the story pretty quickly because I was enjoying myself so much. I thought the new lands were interesting, enjoyed the story, and grew attached to the new characters...especially wuk lamat. I was very surprised after I finished to hear how many people dislike her. It also makes me sad. Like...I want to be her bestie and go on adventures. Her and G'raha Tia are welcome in my trust anytime haha.

She was a little obnoxious at first and could be corny...but I appreciated that about her character and enjoyed her growth. Just a differing opinion. I don't think she ruined it at all. Some criticism I see people say is reasonable and I've had a few debates. Some people just seemingly hate her for no reason which is confusing. But I guess not everyone will always enjoy every character.

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Originally Posted by Tekotako

Just came to this thread to share some thoughts. I played through the story pretty quickly because I was enjoying myself so much. I thought the new lands were interesting, enjoyed the story, and grew attached to the new characters...especially wuk lamat. I was very surprised after I finished to hear how many people dislike her. It also makes me sad. Like...I want to be her bestie and go on adventures. Her and G'raha Tia are welcome in my trust anytime haha.

She was a little obnoxious at first and could be corny...but I appreciated that about her character and enjoyed her growth. Just a differing opinion. I don't think she ruined it at all. Some criticism I see people say is reasonable and I've had a few debates. Some people just seemingly hate her for no reason which is confusing. But I guess not everyone will always enjoy every character.

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I am happy for you, really am. Always good to hear a different sound. Sadly I can't share your view of her. To me, she took so much away from Krile and Erenville, it simply is criminal. There are scenes, where she doesn't belong and even my rl cat knows her bounderies and has respect for my personal space. Not Wuk Lamat tho, she hoggs every spare moment we have, is annoying to a point it's nauseating. I have over 40 days left to play, came back after a 3 months break, will take another break till this is over.

Currently don't have the stomach to finish the MSQ, leveling a new character from scratch as we speak. Just to get away from that....

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Disney princes was just a over the top comment.

That's what I'm saying. She went out and talked to people so why does she know nothing about them? Is she ignorant?
No, its because of bad writing. There is no deeper meaning besides that.
We absolutely do know that she did that, that she talked with people.
She knew the taco seller and the Mamool Ja next to him who also seleld food.
She knew the PeluPelu who crafted her axe.
When told at the beginning of the two guards that "they would like to keep coming to her and talk" she responded with "I wouldn't want to have it any other way because I love talking with my people" (in one form or another).
So she really actually interacted with her people before we arrived in DT otherwise they wouldn't be so lax about approaching her.

Yes Galool JaJa had a terrible aproach to the Dawnservant thing and made mistakes but no... the children not respecting the people and cultures are their own fault. These arent little children. They are short of adults.
They can and should think for themself even more so if tehy want to rule a country.

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Aren’t all the people mentioned only within the city? Most of her interacting with people seemed like it was mainly with those who lived with Tulliyolal. She was approachable and sociable with the city people but other than, one time out with dad for Hanu Hanu festival and goes out for hunting, we’re not shown or told she’s done more than those things to interact with Tural citizens outside of Tulliyolal.

So theoretically the inside the city people, which are a melting pot, should be different than who’s outside. And if she had interacted with people outside the city she could have said more things like, the Hanu Hanu in the city love tacos but outside the city reeds a main food staple. But if I’m remembering correct she only has surface knowledge of everyone at best, and at worst she knows nothing and Erenville filled in the gaps for her.

Guloool Ja Ja we needed more stuff with him about how he raised the kids. Cuz yeah they’re adults now but also how’d they all go this long with not one of them being even 50% worthy of being Dawnservant? Did he at a certain point just be like, well you’re on your own to learn about the cultural of continent you live on and if you need advice just read the stone pillars about how I united everyone? And then Koana bounces of to Sharlyan, Zareel Ja does his thing, Wuk Lamat stays at home eating tacos and engaging with city citizens?

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Originally Posted by Papayatar

shorted for character limit.

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Just because those people are in the city doesn't mean they don't live their culture I think (and it's "only" been 80 years since the fighting stopped. The city is probably far younger in this form.
Even in real life culture is preserved for generations.
The PeluPelu are still traders and take care of Alpaca in the city.
The HanuHanu should still use those plant things and the greeting between them wouldn't be droped because they live somewhere else.
The entire story tells us that culture should be presevered.
So even if she was mostly in the city she should have seen at least some cultural stuff of those people in my opinion.

Agreed that we needed more scenes of Gulool JaJa to flesh his point of view out.

He clearly taught them fighting and the most basic things about culture.
At one point though even children need to find answers for themself. That's actually what they did to a certain extent. Everyone of them found their own answer in the beginning but in the end only two of them were told as correct.
The entire trial stuff was about using the base that they were taught and meld them into someone who could lead the country.
The biggest problem was though that Gulool JaJa from the start wanted a new Dawnservant that had HIS view of the world. Culture and technology (he approved of the Aetherytes).
Zarool Ja and Bagool Ja never had a chance in the first place (not that I pardon their ways mind you) but not everything of their thinking was wrong.
Valigarmanda WAS dealt with through strenght and might in the end not by talking or technology. In the Ff14 world a certain "army" is needed to protect against wild life.
I think if the story showed that all of the combatants had their drawbacks it would have been better and that the trials were actually about teaching that instead of just respecting the cultures.

That's the biggest fault of him in my eyes. his onesided approach to all this and favouring one single approach.

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Originally Posted by Papayatar

Guloool Ja Ja we needed more stuff with him about how he raised the kids. Cuz yeah they’re adults now but also how’d they all go this long with not one of them being even 50% worthy of being Dawnservant? Did he at a certain point just be like, well you’re on your own to learn about the cultural of continent you live on and if you need advice just read the stone pillars about how I united everyone? And then Koana bounces of to Sharlyan, Zareel Ja does his thing, Wuk Lamat stays at home eating tacos and engaging with city citizens?

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No surprise Zoral Ja turned the way he did with an absentee father like that.
Writers probably don't have kids of their own because they failed Gulool Ja and they failed WoL mentoring role.

Such a pity because Gulool Ja has an interesting past (that pretty much makes him a Mamool Ja WoL), but it looks like that between his Quest and our arrival, he did absolutely nothing but neglect his children even when Wuk Lamat go out of her way to say the contrary.
It's such a jarring oversight, to make this specific storyline work.

Also surprising enough, we did mentored Zero and she was eager to learn, observed our actions, didn't hesitate to question...just like a kid would do.
With Wuk Lamat we just played the role of cameraman and were stripped of any agency, we didn't teach anything, she's just like those pesky kid that think they always know better.

This story could be told in a better way if WoL went to Tural without any involvement in the succession race and sometimes our path crossed with theirs.

We would truly explore and learn at our own pace instead of getting the "Tourist Adventurer's Guild package" (Grandia anyone?)

I'mma be honest, I don't think she's a Sheltered Princess so much as the culture in Tural is so underdeveloped that she forcibly comes off that way.

The Hanuhanu are actually a great example of what should've been. Here is a small village, Wuk tells us they love to party, they throw festivals every year, she even went to one! Great! Then we learn it's the other way around, they party because they must. The festivals are a requirement for a good harvest. Well, what actually happens is the birds didn't know the harvests needed a festival either, so they really ... do just love to party. Dang it.

But still, if Wuk could introduce every culture as "This is what they are, what they like to do, etc", and then the trials were about learning the "Why" she wouldn't come off as a Sheltered Princess. But instead it's a coin flip if she does that or not and the why is never/barely discussed, so every culture comes up flat.

The reality is all three siblings are "sheltered". The entire trial is meeting the people to learn about their culture. Which is weird, they should all have been thought that ages ago, with the trials being how well they understood it. And more importantly, how well they understand their own people, which again the writers seem to have been trying to do that, but they were so casual about it, like they didn't really want to expand on the stuff despite making it the core justification for the story.

I think trying to talk about Wuk Lamat's shortcomings in characterisation is missing the forest for the trees. The issue is that the new writing team seemingly don't know how to execute a full character arc across the form of an MMO expansion story and that is infinitely more concerning to me than one dud character.

Wuk Lamat is the worst offender because she eats up like 90% of the screen time and devours the characters arcs of everyone else in the process, but the same core writing issue can be felt with Zero, Golbez, Koana, Bakool Ja Ja and ESPECIALLY Zoraal Ja. These characters are NOT lacking, but they are explored in the most cookie-cutter, wishy-washy, half-baked ways that the players are sat here scratching our heads and making character analyses to fill in the blanks on the writers' behalf.

'You just lack media literacy!' is becoming more and more of a catch-all handwave to ignore opposing opinions on social media but this isn't a question of media literacy at all - it is a question of execution. Stories are written for the layman and not people who 'read as a writer' so if a story or a character isn't hitting with a wide swathe of the audience then there is no other way to look at it than as a clarity fault with the writing team.

Wuk Lamat is Hiroi's 'OC donut steel' whether by design or by accident and that is a failure. The Rite of Succession is a contrived mess and that is a failure. The tribes are all homogenised into singular traits that define their people and that is a failure (and also borders on problematic). The new characters are doomed to be poorly explored and that is a failure. The tonal dissonance of getting a nation together to build a train-turmed-nuclear-warhead while High School Musical plays in the background is a failure. The embarrassing contrivances needed to push the story along like letting Zoraal Ja walk free from Tuliyollal is a failure.

The writing team have simply failed. Wuk Lamat is a primary victim of a far more ominous outlook on the quality of future content, not the perpetrator of a bad story.

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Originally Posted by Remiferia

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Having a character take that much screen time is, in itself, symptomatic. You have a varied cast, but no one's allowed to breathe. There are legitimate moments where characters want a private moment with the WoL... and Wuk Lamat just forces herself into them. I watched Cider's playthrough recently, and I didn't realize that she accompanies Koana when he asks for a moment with the WoL to give you some new gear (actually wiped from my mind... that, or I skipped that cutscene). She wasn't necessary there, she added nothing of value, and detracted from the scene by divesting it of some intimacy and potential moments of characterization and development. This happens constantly.

As for the "media literacy" comments, a lot of it feels, to me, like people using the text as an end-all justification. Like a mutated argument from scripture- the script says X, so X is true and implicitly justified... regardless of how X is portrayed, the fact that's it's often Y shown on screen, that, in the past, the story and lore said Z instead of X, and that the justification of X contradicts/retcons fundamental pillars of the past stories/world-building.
I gave this example before, but it's as if in 8.0 the story went "bananas are the source of Dynamis" and further went "actually, Meteion had a secret garden of banana trees, that's why she could manipulate it... also, the WoL is part-banana"- many people would see the contradiction and call it out, saying it's bogus. But I bet someone would immediately crawl out of the woodwork to go "didn't you read the quest?!?! It's all about the bananas, they explain Meteion had tons of bananas on the edge of the universe, and the WoL is part banana! Media literacy is dead lol!". You see this a lot if you raise an issue with the characterization, retconning or lore inconsistencies in DT (and already saw in EW).
If you stretch your suspension of disbelief enough and accept any retcon presented in the body of the text without questioning, then anything is possible really. Even the banana-WoL.