Job action combos one button

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Originally Posted by Saraide

What? My entire point was never about oGCDs, just about combo collapsing itself (like is the thread's topic). I am still confused as to why oGCDs and positionals were even brought up as counter in the first place. Did I ever claim they require no attention or that keeping up your combo is the only thing? If so I would like you to point that out to me so I can clear up a misunderstanding.

I find this a very weird leap in logic you have there tbh: I doubt that the people who want combo collapsing are interested in rotation optimization therefore I definitely dont optimize my rotation.

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I don't care if they are interested in optimized rotations or not. I care about the fact that if they did make this change it would NOT be an optional setting. They would be forced to simplify the game even further which would in turn make the game worse. It did nothing to improve PvP and I don't want that level of simplification bleeding over into pve.

I play games like SWTOR and FFXIV specifically for this type of combat system. I'm tired of players who can't be bothered to keybind come in and advocate for making the game as simplistic as possible. They've already ruined swtor for me with the 7.0 combat changes and I've since unsubbed from that game. I don't want that happening here.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I don't care if they are interested in optimized rotations or not. I care about the fact that if they did make this change it would NOT be an optional setting. They would be forced to simplify the game even further which would in turn make the game worse. It did nothing to improve PvP and I don't want that level of simplification bleeding over into pve.

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Why are we using a setting about as different as a different MMO entirely (XIV's PvP) as evidence for there being no chance of consolidation being optional?

PvP's consolidation was done in order to allow level entry-level players to jump straight into the level-cap toolkit of PvP, or, put less kindly, to dumb down the level-cap PvP toolkits to that of PvP content's entry levels. It was an addendum to a far larger plan specifically and deliberately aimed at simplification.

That context does not apply also to PvE, for which a level-cap kit is not the same as a level 30's and the dev's do not insist on some hard cap of a dozenish job actions.

Chocobo racing has about as much relevance to the broader designs of PvE as does PvP in this game; since Stormblood, XIV has already stripped any illusion of its PvP following the same design philosophies as its PvE, instead being plenty happy turn PvE into some hybrid of a mini-game and reference to PvE actions.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why are we using a setting about as different as a different MMO entirely (XIV's PvP) as evidence for there being no chance of consolidation being optional?

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Gnashing Fang's combo would like a word with you.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Gnashing Fang's combo would like a word with you.

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Does its word explain why one would conflate wholly different contexts?

Seriously, you'd find more relevance towards existing (real) jobs' PvE kits in a design decision from Blue Mage as evidence than in XIV's PvP. PvP has been a thing unto itself since Stormblood.

"There may be an odd quirk of coding by which it's actually harder to copy-over a past design for stacked actions for specific combos without also doing the extra work of removing the existing, separate actions" would actually be a more reasonable warning against consolidation than "It was included as a small part of PvP's sweeping changes towards simplification, so anything that uses it would doubtless face the same lack of options as PvE."

The latter treats a tool as having inherent motive and context; it doesn't. Combo consolidation would do for PvE only exactly what the precise buttonflows of having consolidated combos would do for PvE. It does not necessitate it's being a non-option. It does not necessitate sweeping changes towards simplification.

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As for Gnashing Fang itself, I'd agree that we should regain the option to separate it, even if I can understand why SE didn't much feel it made sense for one job's equivalent of Goring Blade/Storm's Eye to take up three times as many unique keys as the others'.

A small note, though: Gnashing Fang has never been a combo as codified by the game any more than, say, Forked/Fleeting. It's only ever been a series of skills that provide 10s buffs which unlock others in that series. As such, one could already just key-swipe across them (WT->JS->GF) to queue the next among whichever of the trio was possible rather than ever needing to track one's step in that series or hit a particular button per that step.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Does its word explain why one would conflate wholly different contexts?

Seriously, you'd find more relevance towards existing (real) jobs' PvE kits in a design decision from Blue Mage as evidence than in XIV's PvP. PvP has been a thing unto itself since Stormblood.

"There may be an odd quirk of coding by which it's actually harder to copy-over a past design for stacked actions for specific combos without also doing the extra work of removing the existing, separate actions" would actually be more reasonable than "It was included as a small part of PvP's sweeping changes towards simplification, so anything that uses it would doubtless face the same lack of options as PvE."

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Was more debating your stance that it would be an option with proof from GNB's recent change in EW with Gnashing Fang's combo. It wasn't an option for players then and I don't see why SE would change it's stance here.

As I've said, condensing a combo is more likely to also come with more buttons to replace it to cut down on button bloat than be an option for players who have actual needs for them to be condense for QoL or ease of access.

And even if they did decide for it to be an option now, that doesn't mean they won't change their stance later to address new skills being added by forcing it on everyone else.

Its a lose-lose situation.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

As I've said, condensing a combo is more likely to also come with more buttons to replace it to cut down on button bloat than be an option for players who have actual needs for them to be condense for QoL or ease of access.

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But what evidence is there for that?

For the time being, they seem perfectly happy to have some jobs with up to 7 keys more than others. Apart from opportunities for sales points via shiny (and I do mean shiny) new job trailer abilities (regardless of their actual gameplay quality), they've been in no rush to fill bar space or even patch gaping holes in job depth left by past action-pruning.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But what evidence is there for that?

For the time being, they seem perfectly happy to have some jobs with up to 7 keys more than others. Apart from opportunities for sales points via shiny (and I do mean shiny) new job trailer abilities (regardless of their actual gameplay quality), they've been in no rush to fill bar space or even patch gaping holes in job depth left by past action-pruning.

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I have 0 evidence to support that consolidation = more skills other than "well the players are going to expect new skills come X cap level lets see where we can squeeze more buttons" /shrug

But again, I still do not see this being an option. All or nothing seems to be SE's MO for a lot of things. In this it should be an option. People like PvP's condensed skills for PvE's combo's better.

I personally hate it. It isn't easier or harder I just don't like it and would rather not have it. Will I quit the game over it? No. I still have GNB being played and I adjusted even if my muscle memory still rebels after all this time. Do I like it? No. Do I want it back? Yes. Am I getting it back? Evidence says no, "that's rough buddy".

Is it still unfair to deny other WoLs a change that would aid them in an area they cannot help? Yes, which is why, as I've said I'm not going to die upon this hill. I have other things to be rooting for.
I'd adapt to the change regardless.

Will I hate SE for not making it an option like they should and forcing it on me? Well I hate every Role Play quest I have to go through so far so this won't be any different.

So my stance will remain: if it isn't an option I don't want it. And I still don't see it being an option.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

if it isn't an option I don't want it. And I still don't see it being an option.

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I agree with you on the first, but because this isn't going to happen without player push regardless (as it'd unfavorably lay bare a great deal of the dev's feigned "depth" on combo-heavy jobs), I see no reason why that player push would be incapable of pushing for "We want this option" over "We want this change."

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I agree with you on the first, but because this isn't going to happen without player push regardless (as it'd unfavorably lay bare a great deal of the dev's feigned "depth" on combo-heavy jobs), I see no reason why that player push would be incapable of pushing for "We want this option" over "We want this change."

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It has less to do with lack of faith in the players to ask for an option and more to do with lack of faith in the devs for making it an option.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I have 0 evidence to support that consolidation = more skills other than "well the players are going to expect new skills come X cap level lets see where we can squeeze more buttons" /shrug

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that doesn't really mean it'll only happen because of consolidation.
In fact, it would support the need for consolidation even more.
Because it means that new skills are expected to be added.
Because those added buttons can take the spot of the consolidated buttons.