DRK QOL changes for 5.4

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Originally Posted by shao32

lore wise DRK can be whatever you want and still works but gameplay wise DRK have not sense at all mostly bcs is not the DRK we use to have and have fun in the past anymore, it's just a black WAR.

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I the big issues I have with DRK, is that the DRK job quests are very well done, give it a very clear theme of being something, Frey is such a great class teacher. It just doesn't get fleshed out, it doesn't really drive home the part your supposed to play. It sure doesn't leave you thinking " I'm a tank, that fights injustice! in Black armor instead of White!" Like Frey is not a good person, be it your inner demon or what have you.

In HW the abilities and play style really made me think Guts from Berserk. I was flipping around doing some serious swings with a trained arm, unlike the wild swings of a Warrior/Marauder. I was perfectly happy with Guts plus flavor.
Thing is "Dark energy" In HW was such a minor part of the job, and now its center stage, and it all feels like garbage. I don't want to be EMO the edge knight. I want to be a seasoned Fighter with some utility magic like Abyssal drain and the majority of our AOE.

The 'dark energy' has always been a part of the job. It's that classic fantasy 'Gish' appeal of weaving between sword and spell. The problem is that the pacing is off. The five second windups going into big hits is a WAR thing. What made Heavensward DRK so appealing was that it was an endless onslaught of bladework and dark magic.

From a thematic perspective, DRK is about punishing injustice. Again, HW did that through counterattacks (Low Blow and Reprisal resets, as well as Blood Price). More recent iterations just rely on TBN as a punishment mechanic. It needs to be a job-wide theme. When mobs hit you or a teammate that you're protecting, you hit them back harder and faster.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The 'dark energy' has always been a part of the job. It's that classic fantasy 'Gish' appeal of weaving between sword and spell. The problem is that the pacing is off. The five second windups going into big hits is a WAR thing. What made Heavensward DRK so appealing was that it was an endless onslaught of bladework and dark magic.

From a thematic perspective, DRK is about punishing injustice. Again, HW did that through counterattacks (Low Blow and Reprisal resets, as well as Blood Price). More recent iterations just rely on TBN as a punishment mechanic. It needs to be a job-wide theme. When mobs hit you or a teammate that you're protecting, you hit them back harder and faster.

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Something like Shelltron, but maybe closer to a small blood price wouldnt hurt, itd make things more proactive, and give you more of an attention span when tanking besides 4 5 4 5 4 5 4 5. 123 123 123

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Originally Posted by Valknut

I the big issues I have with DRK, is that the DRK job quests are very well done, give it a very clear theme of being something, Frey is such a great class teacher. It just doesn't get fleshed out, it doesn't really drive home the part your supposed to play. It sure doesn't leave you thinking " I'm a tank, that fights injustice! in Black armor instead of White!" Like Frey is not a good person, be it your inner demon or what have you.

In HW the abilities and play style really made me think Guts from Berserk. I was flipping around doing some serious swings with a trained arm, unlike the wild swings of a Warrior/Marauder. I was perfectly happy with Guts plus flavor.
Thing is "Dark energy" In HW was such a minor part of the job, and now its center stage, and it all feels like garbage. I don't want to be EMO the edge knight. I want to be a seasoned Fighter with some utility magic like Abyssal drain and the majority of our AOE.

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Story wise, i got no complaints. Most people are justifying the pre 50 job quests though, when beyond the one little 80 quest, as pretty much resolved. That being said, Fray/Esteem being an Egi, as opposed to just being a summoner trance mode, makes very little since to me. Sure call on your inner darkness for more power, but for gods sake dont just make it pop out like a shadow double, Give us more powerful abilities, like SMN in a trance state, preferably the phoenix trance state. Outside of that, its whatever. Its 2.0 paladin gameplay, with a 2nd hit on flash to me. Its a tank, and it tanks. As good as a tank can tank. At some point they will have to add/design DRK as a job, and not just your basic role. It has become the WHM of tanks. Its a tank, that tanks. And its really good at being a tank. And that is all 5.x DRK is, it isnt a job, its a role.

Can we finally just be honest with ourselves about current DRK, whose biggest gimmick is upkeeping a damage buff at the cost of an extremely heavy, but very managable MP(second resource) cost.
For that gimmick to exist, its damage has to be better. Hands down. If SE cant figure out Living Dead, or give it to a tank that can actually handle the drawbacks, among other problems DRK face, the biggest factor(keeping a damage buff up) should at least be aknowledged by the job itself. SE doesnt want to do that? Then design DRK to be more than a shell of a role. period. I mean what good is the illusion of a damage buff that has to be kept up, if it keeps you dead last in comparison to the other jobs in the role that do not have to maintain a dps buff, let alone have more to offer in any situation than DRK beyond its Stoneskin ability, which again...2.0 PLD *cough cough*

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Can we finally just be honest with ourselves about current DRK, whose biggest gimmick is upkeeping a damage buff at the cost of an extremely heavy, but very managable MP(second resource) cost.
For that gimmick to exist, its damage has to be better. Hands down. If SE cant figure out Living Dead, or give it to a tank that can actually handle the drawbacks, among other problems DRK face, the biggest factor(keeping a damage buff up) should at least be aknowledged by the job itself. SE doesnt want to do that? Then design DRK to be more than a shell of a role. period. I mean what good is the illusion of a damage buff that has to be kept up, if it keeps you dead last in comparison to the other jobs in the role that do not have to maintain a dps buff, let alone have more to offer in any situation than DRK beyond its Stoneskin ability, which again...2.0 PLD *cough cough*

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Dark Knight beats Warrior in every fight of the current tier, and there is no reason to believe this shall change without a fight heavily catering to warrior (extremely low up time to make IR windows much more impactful).

And even comparing it to Gunbreaker, it's behind by maybe a couple hundred.

Dark Knight does not have a power problem.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Dark Knight beats Warrior in every fight of the current tier, and there is no reason to believe this shall change without a fight heavily catering to warrior (extremely low up time to make IR windows much more impactful).

And even comparing it to Gunbreaker, it's behind by maybe a couple hundred.

Dark Knight does not have a power problem.

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Well thats about all my complaints. TBF it seems like its just a gameplay issue. It is very dull.

I think that Living Shadow would be better received if player actions had more of an effect on it, like Bunshin does. I'm hoping that this is the start of something that gets expanded on in the future.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Dark Knight beats Warrior in every fight of the current tier, and there is no reason to believe this shall change without a fight heavily catering to warrior (extremely low up time to make IR windows much more impactful).

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That's only true if you cherry pick the very top results, which are always majorly skewed. DRK is at the bottom of most centiles. I would have figured that this would be obvious from the bar charts.

It baffles me how the most beautiful deep and complex tank become 4 years later more simple than a stone tank without any flavour, darkside and living shadow could have been better received if they actualy do something gameplay wise instead of being just there for the sake of being there, the gauge means they should being important for us, the problem is they aren't and that's poor.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think the key things that people seem interested in are:
1) Increase baseline attack speed to be on par with HW/SB era Blood Weapon.
2) Second combo.
3) More oGCD usage/APM.
4) Replace Living Dead with something that isn't obviously garbage in comparison to Holmgang.

None of these are difficult to fix.

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Yeah pretty much thats the basic of the basics request i saw since the begining of the expansion, if we put Delirium delete/rework there would be better but depending of wich option they pick it can be more complex to fix or not.

The thing is at the end they should put some real effort on make DRK gameplay something more while respecting his original gameplay and not give us what they give us and make us keep this "thing" the entire expansion.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Well thats about all my complaints. TBF it seems like its just a gameplay issue. It is very dull.

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because it was made dull.

SE is stuck between a rock and a hard place, but there's hope that 5.0 can serve as a base for DRK to become more fleshed out and made realized as its own identity.
First thing that'd need to happen is the expansion-tradition of redesigning Delirium.

We can only hope

This is neither here nor there but... I will say that there's something about the Bloodspiller spam that just doesn't do it for me. Maybe it's the animation? There isn't a whole lot of hit stop in this game. Whenever characters attack, they are, for the most part, just kinda waving their weapons in front of the enemy (Paladin comes to mind)... That said, Warrior's Fell Cleave animation is legitimately satisfying. Why? There's that split second in the swing where your character seemingly struggles to complete it. It's a short moment, but the fact that your swing is "interrupted" right before you tear through the target makes for a visceral animation in a game that is otherwise full of floaty animations.

Bloodspiller, though? You swing your sword around and then slam it on the ground, actually lifting yourself up while you do it... Yet for some reason this doesn't really convey what should be a viscerally-satisfying animation. Maybe it's the random-ass "darkness beam" that pops up alongside it?

Either way, I'm just tired of "now you can spam X or Y skill at no cost!" design. It's boring to me. I think Lyth summarized it pretty well up there. Reason I loved HW's version of DRK is that it was an endless onslaught of bladework and dark magic, but it felt like there was variety to it? Idk. I'm sorry. I realize that I'm not explaining myself very well but yeah, I am... not very happy with the current iteration of DRK.

Edit: I also miss 3.0's version of Darkside. I LIKED having to maintain my MP up.