Character Creation Has A Race Problem

Pretty sure people offering differing opinions is not the same thing as invalidating the opinions of others.

Pointing out that something isn't practical, however nice/diversifying it would be, is not the same as invalidating or otherwise outright opposing it.

We have every right to criticize the creation we're a fan of; however, when you present that criticism on a public forum, other forum users have equal right to criticize that criticism or otherwise offer differing opinions.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

^^^ That is literally part of your opening paragraph to the thread.

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That was me indicating that just because I'm lighter, doesn't mean I have European facial features. Because there are albino black people, there are lighter skinned black people who aren't biracial, but don't have European facial features either. I used NC44 in Mac and 330 in Fenty as makeup references for undertone. They aren't my specific shades.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

There's #2.

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I used myself as an example because you can be very dark, very light, medium tan, etc; and each of those can have different undertones. There's no yellow undertone, not just for me, but anyone else who may want one.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Not EXACTLY saying, but hey, you're kind of hinting that you're using your own ethnicity to fuel this crusade. so, #2.5

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Not exactly indeed. It's me saying that just because no one else did it, I don't mind doing it for them. If a kid broke his leg on the playground and a school refused to report it, I'd speak up for them. Doesn't matter if it's my leg or not.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

#3, only stressing this one because it coincides with your statement in the opening paragraph.

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Again, to illustrate why the skins in the game look ashy, by explaining that if I (or anyone) was to use the wrong undertone, this problem could happen. And that's regardless to race.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

#4, not stated explicitly, but using the other quotes as a reference, we get the picture.

But, I mean, there's everything plain in writing mostly.

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What I said above applies to this.

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Originally Posted by wondergroove

For a lot of people, they HAVE to play as the default white dude in games. They HAVE to play as something that isn't like them because it's the only option available. Even when there IS customization available, the options are usually still pretty limited.

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Many games have a set protagonist and the developers intend to tell that protagonist's story. If people choose to turn up their noses at a particular game because they cannot 'play themselves' then they're missing out on a lot of solid titles. In a game with a character creation system, you can - more often than not - adjust the skin tone of your character to reflect your own look if that is what you are willing to do.

With that said, though, bundling all 'white dudes' together seems rather strange. There is an immense amount of diversity where Caucasians are concerned. To name but a few, there's the Irish, the British, the Scottish, the Welsh, the French, the Croatian, the Polish and so on.

It feels like some people claim that they want more diversity yet in reality they only want 'visible' diversity.

For the record, I'm a guy who likes other guys. I have no issue playing a character that is straight. Is it nice when I can play a character that is gay or bisexual? Sure! Yet it isn't a necessity...because not every story can or will accommodate every possibility.

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Originally Posted by Joven

You cried racism when you put that the game has a "race problem" in the title of this post and whined about diversity and representation. Stating that SE can do whatever they want because it's their game isn't a cop-out, it's the truth. You can complain and criticize things on here all you want it doesn't change anything if they don't implement it. Do you think you're the only one on here (and by that I also mean this entire forum not just this post) who has something they've wanted to see and never got? Everybody pays a subscription, not just you, so why can't we get the things we want too huh? You keep claiming that the community controls the content around here when we're largely ignored. I could go on, but you'll most likely ignore it since apparently nobody is allowed to disagree with you over anything.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

Pretty sure people offering differing opinions is not the same thing as invalidating the opinions of others.

Pointing out that something isn't practical, however nice/diversifying it would be, is not the same as invalidating or otherwise outright opposing it.

We have every right to criticize the creation we're a fan of; however, when you present that criticism on a public forum, other forum users have equal right to criticize that criticism or otherwise offer differing opinions.

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To Joven’s point, I already countered that in responses to other people so going over these arguments yet again, is unnecessary. But to address you both simultaneously. I didn’t get upset about people disagreeing with me. This was also already explained in prior posts. There have been a number of people who disagreed with me, and I understood their points and moved on.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

A race war? Who even said that yo...

You know what, yup, I'm done with this thread. You're using the term 'gaslighting' incorrectly, by the by. But yeah, I'm out of this thread - not worth continuing this argument anymore.

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Tsumdere said that. Do scroll up.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

That was me indicating that just because I'm lighter, doesn't mean I have European facial features. Because there are albino black people, there are lighter skinned black people who aren't biracial, but don't have European facial features either. I used NC44 in Mac and 330 in Fenty as makeup references for undertone. They aren't my specific shades.





I used myself as an example because you can be very dark, very light, medium tan, etc; and each of those can have different undertones. There's no yellow undertone, not just for me, but anyone else who may want one.



Not exactly indeed. It's me saying that just because no one else did it, I don't mind doing it for them. If a kid broke his leg on the playground and a school refused to report it, I'd speak up for them. Doesn't matter if it's my leg or not.



Again, to illustrate why the skins in the game look ashy, by explaining that if I (or anyone) was to use the wrong undertone, this problem could happen. And that's regardless to race.



What I said above applies to this.

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Whether you believe that it was to illustrate your point or not is irrelevant because it has done exactly the opposite of what you intended and I think that you should have known ahead of time that it would, you brought your own skin and ethnicity as an opening statement into a thread where you could have just stated "Hey guys, I think we need more of this!" and list your examples of what you'd like to see, and then leave it at that.

No information about your own skin-tone, no using buzzwords like gas lighting, no saying that the game is heavily bias towards Caucasians, and no using beliefs that you think a certain group of people are being under-represented. None of that. All of that was unneeded from the very beginning. If this thread is falling apart, it's because you started it that way with a hidden agenda and the rest of us are just pointing it out.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Whether you believe that it was to illustrate your point or not is irrelevant because it has done exactly the opposite of what you intended and I think that you should have known ahead of time that it would, you brought your own skin and ethnicity as an opening statement into a thread where you could have just stated "Hey guys, I think we need more of this!" and list your examples of what you'd like to see, and then leave it at that.

No information about your own skin-tone, no using buzzwords like gas lighting, , no saying that the game is heavily bias towards Caucasians, and no using ideas that you think a certain group of people are being under-represented. None of that. All of that was unneeded from the very beginning. If this thread is falling apart, it's because you started it that way with a hidden agenda and the rest of us are just pointing it out.

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You sound very paranoid. There was no hidden agenda, and it seems like you want there to be. Everything was really transparent, bluntly so. You're reaching for what isn't there. What I stated didn't and still doesn't detract from the point that Hyurs need more character options. And who are you again to tell me how to communicate? I don't have to edit myself and word things in a way you and others deem acceptable. Being that I clarified multiple times what I meant, why are you all still acting confused? Once the clarification was made, everyone should've dropped that other bullshit and focused on the customization limitations for Hyur. But yet I'm allegedly the one trolling. Whatever.

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Originally Posted by wondergroove

Interesting tale bud, but not everyone feels that way. If you don't want more diverse representation because it doesn't effect you in any way, then you don't have to talk about it or advocate it in any way.

For a lot of people, they HAVE to play as the default white dude in games. They HAVE to play as something that isn't like them because it's the only option available. Even when there IS customization available, the options are usually still pretty limited.

Also, you're right; creators don't have to try and respectfully represent people when they create something. Fans of that creation still have every right to criticize it, point out the lack of diversity, and how that may frustrate them, however.

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I advocate for the creator's choice to include whatever race, gender, etc. they want without being forced to try and appeal to everyone's sensibilities. When you start expecting every game to cater to everybody you stifle creativity and expression. This is the the creator's story they're telling, not ours.

If you feel like the character on the screen HAS to be just like you then that's your hangup. If your only criticism of a game you claim to be a fan of is simply that you aren't represented then that's kinda petty.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Many games have a set protagonist and the developers intend to tell that protagonist's story. If people choose to turn up their noses at a particular game because they cannot 'play themselves' then they're missing out on a lot of solid titles.

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I only play characters that are exactly like me.

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Originally Posted by Nandina

You sound very paranoid. There was no hidden agenda, and it seems like you want there to be. Everything was really transparent, bluntly so. You're reaching for what isn't there. What I stated didn't and still doesn't detract from the point that Hyurs need more character options. And who are you again to tell me how to communicate? I don't have to edit myself and word things in a way you and others deem acceptable. Being that I clarified multiple times what I meant, why are you all still acting confused? Once the clarification was made, everyone should've dropped that other bullshit and focused on the customization limitations for Hyur. But yet I'm allegedly the one trolling. Whatever.

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I didn't realize that discussing things calmly with you was paranoia. You might want to examine yourself about that. You really need to stop with the blanket assumptions and rudeness right off the bat if you want anyone to take your criticisms seriously, just a helpful suggestion. If you're feeling threatened or offended by what I just said, then who exactly is the paranoid one again? I mean, you're pretty good at assuming that others having an opinion that goes against your own is somehow invalidating your words and telling you how to communicate. Who are you to tell me how to communicate to you?

Assuming that all of a sudden, I'm telling you how to communicate when I just offered some suggestions that you could have used to avoid these 7 pages of nonsense. You can dish criticism against others, but you surely can't take it without getting overly hostile and looking to be offended by it almost immediately while acting that your own opinions are on some kind of higher platform than others.

I mean, this thread is beyond help at this point. But, if you like seeing it become the train wreck it is then who am I to stop or say "Hey...maybe this might not have happened if you just opened with something like this instead like other topics...".

Now we see why Eorzea has no mixed races and why Hylda is a rarity, people will outright dismiss something that doesn't affect them. Reminds me a lot of Ishgard and the issues it brought up.
As long as it doesn't affect me it shouldn't matter to anyone else.