Caster Changes in 4.2 (RIP Casters)

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

I agree with Kleeya and Adventica, all this meta crap doesn't apply to any of us, a 2% dps increase isn't a reason to recruit a SMN over a BLM, leaving aside the fact that PLAYER SKILL LEVEL IS WAY MORE IMPORTANT. The differences in dps are miniscule so stop with this meta nonsense.

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Glad to know that the difference in damage for the wide variety of tools brought otherwise is minuscule.

That you don't see a problem with that is telling.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Vanille, if you want to argue, don't invent Random numbers.

Harold, not only will BLM remain top dps in all those fights, the difference isn't drastic, and you're basing it all on mathematical situations that never exist. People don't always align cds, some players are better than others, some fights favor casters like blm more. I really don't get the argument of this "in a vacuum where there are no factors except maths".

Maero, like I said before, there are so many factors to the performance of the group, when you use something like a raid calculator, it's irrelevant. Point is, the difference isn't drastic, and all jobs are viable to play at a savage level with little differences in performance

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It was a hypothetical? You know, a "for example"? You do know those exist right? And I wasn't arguing, I was pointing out why utility is favoured over non-utility.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

If BLM does 2000 more personal DPS than NIN, but NIN brings 3000 group DPS through utility, NIN is the stronger choice because it has better over all DPS.

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Trick Attack, in a midcore static on O6S contributes to like 450 DPS. Shadewalker's value is decreased so much with the introduction of Diversion then it's only semi useful on pull and that's it. Stop talking out of your butt. BLM and Nin damage close overall.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

It was a hypothetical? You know, a "for example"? You do know those exist right? And I wasn't arguing, I was pointing out why utility is favoured over non-utility.

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Your example is based on the numbers being close to true, because if it weren't then your example makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Glad to know that the difference in damage for the wide variety of tools brought otherwise is minuscule.

That you don't see a problem with that is telling.

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In reality, the difference is miniscule and depends far more on independent skill.
Trying to apply math on raids where mechanics, uptime, deaths, adds and phases are involved is plain stupid.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

In reality, the difference is miniscule and depends far more on independent skill.
Trying to apply math on raids where mechanics, uptime, deaths, adds and phases are involved is plain stupid.

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I don't understand the viewpoint that we're just randomly picking up rando's who can't do the job. It cuts both ways.

Every discussion we have on this forum we assume (Or rather, -I- assume -we- assume) the player is competent and in the same tier of skill on their job when compared to another job. A great player makes any job played by a lesser player seem inferior. Using this as the crux of an argument is flawed for that reason. We have to assume, in this argument, that both players are not only equivalently geared, but equivalently capable. This is why we compare the same percentile of players.

You don't compare an i310 Samurai to an i340 Monk and you don't compare Joe Schoemancer to Chantotto.

And as it stands, the data is finicky right now because gear isn't evened out and there are too few plot points across all jobs, but especially Black Mage. This is why we consider the data, but are sort of in a wait and see moment. We can make inferences, but we need more data. We can make predictions, but we need more data. Given the data we are pulling from, we can pretty much assume "Player skill" isn't a factor, because all these early clear guys are probably upper echelon. But again: We need more data.

But so far the inferences match the predictions the moment we saw patch notes. Same story. 4% higher. No real reason to bring them over a Summoner or a Machinist, but 32k Fire4 DCrits are pretty sweet.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

Trick Attack, in a midcore static on O6S contributes to like 450 DPS. Shadewalker's value is decreased so much with the introduction of Diversion then it's only semi useful on pull and that's it. Stop talking out of your butt. BLM and Nin damage close overall.

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Uh...????

I wasn't using actual numbers. I was saying if 1 job does high personal damage but the raid DPS of another job is higher than the job with more raid DPS would being more valued. Don't see how I was talking out my butt?

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Your example is based on the numbers being close to true, because if it weren't then your example makes no sense.

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What the hell are you talking about? All I was saying is that personal DPS has to be much higher to make it more valued than something with high raid DPS. You claimed that BLM has a lack of utility because of their high personal DPS... all I was saying is that if that personal DPS doesn't match another job's raid DPS than it's not balanced.

It's like you guys have never heard of using examples to explain something. Should I have seriously started my statement explaining that my post was simply a "for instance"?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

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Your example is bad, that isn\\'t hard to understand.
In any case, let\\'s assume for a second that their personal dps is higher than the raid dps gained by utility. Would you go and say that utility needs a buff? You do understand that as long as you use math, there will never be a balance, because true job balance had nothing to do with math, but rather how viable a job is in clearing the content. Saying there\\'s no reason to take BLM because taking a SMN will give 2% more dps is stupid on so many levels, it\\'s a calculation that isn\\'t close to reality due to the nature of fights and their mechanics, and even if it were true the % difference is abysmally small to the point that taking a BLM is just as fine as taking a SMN.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Your example is bad, that isn\\'t hard to understand.
In any case, let\\'s assume for a second that their personal dps is higher than the raid dps gained by utility. Would you go and say that utility needs a buff? You do understand that as long as you use math, there will never be a balance, because true job balance had nothing to do with math, but rather how viable a job is in clearing the content. Saying there\\'s no reason to take BLM because taking a SMN will give 2% more dps is stupid on so many levels, it\\'s a calculation that isn\\'t close to reality due to the nature of fights and their mechanics, and even if it were true the % difference is abysmally small to the point that taking a BLM is just as fine as taking a SMN.

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2% wouldn't be a problem. The problem is, on top of those 2% there is a rez and mobility that makes mechanics less punishing.
Also, the hell is wrong with that example? If they posted same thing, just without using any numbers, it'd be fine. Jumping on random numbers that were clearly meant to make it easier to imagine (coz they are way too far from realistic) is pointless.

The example was bad because the numbers made no sense.

I argued that the mathematical 2% isn't how it ends up in reality, if that's what you missed.

Also the only thing lack of mobility affects is personal dps, which BLM still wins because good BLM players know how to deal with moving around for mechanics instead of complaining about their lack of mobility