Most attack and healing abilities do not do an exact amount of damage/healing. There's a median amount of damage/healing that they do based on weapon damage, STR/MND and DET. Then the the final damage/heal that actually happens is within something like 5% of that #. I have tested this further for myself, and after about 20 casts with/without Convalescence, Convalescence does not seem to have any effect whatsoever (roughly 350-370 for me with or without Convalescence, give or take a couple points).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
Either way, if it crits, second wind is ok. If it doesn't crit, berserk adds a whopping 150 hp to that heal. Big Deal. You know a PLD can cast cure on himself? You don't see PLD freaking out about that because they don't care about a 150 hp heal even tho a 150 hp heal is better for a PLD than it is for a WAR (due to damage redux). Why? Because it's not super amazing and doesn't actually rock. It's ok as a supplemental when you need healing right now, but it's very weak on its own (and not great by any regard).
Anyhow, I hope the bug report pans out. Every little bit helps I suppose.
Defiance does NOT reduce attack power. It's is mind numbingly easy to test this and you did not. As such, being in or out of defiance has 0 effect on second wind. It's also insanely easy to test this and you did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
Also, swapping off and on Defiance DOES have a detrimental effect. First, you are not generating wrath with defiance off (no +heal bonus, no +crit bonus, no closer to being able to IB). Second, when swapping off Defiance you cap your HP at your normal HP value. However, when you switch Defiance back on, you do not get that extra HP back. You just have an empty gap of HP that needs to be filled.
So if you've got external healing, flipping Defiance off caps the amount your healers can actually heal you to 80% of your Defiance hp total until you flip it back on. Defiance doesn't effect Inner Beast, and it doesn't effect Second Wind. So all you get from this move is a 25% boost to the somewhat mediocre Bloodbath healing and a 25% boost to the thoroughly lackluster healing from storm's path. Personally I don't think the additional amount you gain from either of those abilities can offset the lower hp cap + any additional healing received from wrath stacks + any additional crit received from wrath stacks + being closer to infuriate so you can IB again. Swapping Defiance off to increase your DPS is one thing (and only if Unchained is down), but swapping off Defiance to boost your self heals is not a good idea.
Storm's Path is almost negligible. It's better than nothing as long as you have a big threat cushion and aren't running out of TP (why it costs 90 TP is beyond me), but it's only going to heal you for something like 150-200 every 3rd hit in a combo (at best, if you're not doing anything else whatsoever). PLD can cast cure and basically get the same amount of HP back so it's still a net loss vs. a PLD who can pretty much fast blade -> riot blade -> cure indefinitely if they felt like it (but only after they've emptied their mana spamming cure). And it's not even necessarily a 150-200 hp net gain when used in blood bath since you're using the weakest of the 3 combos we have to pull it off, thus actually getting a little less out of bloodbath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
And not that it makes much difference, but storm's path(250) is behind both butcher's block(280) and storm's eye(270) in potency.
So... you're amazing, and you're far better than most of us, so we should just listen to you on how to play ... right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
I find this to be an ENORMOUSLY arrogant statement for you to make. Most of your novel suggestions are just you spouting stuff you believe to be true with little to no testing whatsoever. Your posts show a limited understanding of exactly how many of the WAR class abilities function, and you're big on feeling while low on #s. You probably shouldn't act like you have any actual idea what's going on with this class or how well it functions compared to a PLD (because you don't appear to).
I find the point of many WAR threads is to attempt to prove to the devs (and eachother) that there is something wrong that cannot be uncovered by experimentation and additional research.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
I think the point of this thread is to prove how awesome a WAR you are, and how much better you know this class than the rest of us whiners, and as Yoshi P said "L2P". Unfortunately, because all you've done is spout a bunch of stuff we already know supplemented with additional nonsense you made up and/or didn't bother to test, I'd say you've failed miserably in this regard.
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10-02-2013, 05:09 AMGiantbane
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10-02-2013, 06:05 AMLhunYou're actually right here. I've been doing some reading in regards to total output vs attack power. Defiance and Unchained do not affect any self heals except bloodbath and Storm's Path.Quote:
So all you get from this move is a 25% boost to the somewhat mediocre Bloodbath healing and a 25% boost to the thoroughly lackluster healing from storm's path. Personally I don't think the additional amount you gain from either of those abilities can offset the lower hp cap + any additional healing received from wrath stacks
Despite how most people on these forums think, I don't mind being wrong. I was also wrong about Convalescence, to the point where I actually think it's a bug, and have submitted it as such to the in game bug reports. I recommend you thumb it up -> even if it's just so that SE clarifies the tooltip.
Also, I was referring to the japanese players, (who are not finding much wrong with war) not myself. My apologies if that was misconstrued.
Perhaps we just need to find a way to get AKTP up or spend more time figuring out what the deal is with parry. Parsing data shows WAR as having a 25% crit rate in regular use. I'm not sure if this includes Release usage. -
10-02-2013, 07:08 AMTronicLol I've been telling you that since page 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
Uhm... you said Seriously... what the heck people. THINK... please. Why are you all so quick to dismiss what works for the other half of the people playing this game, people that you don't play with, whom are far better at this game then you (with the exception of bluegarter?)?Quote:
Despite how most people on these forums think, I don't mind being wrong.
Quote:
Also, I was referring to the japanese players, (who are not finding much wrong with war) not myself.
What ARE they saying? I can't imagine them not having the same problems as us. What do their threads say? If anything, JP players can be even more elitist when choosing party members than westerners ("JP ONRY", anyone?)
I can't imagine it not using IR. You get 5% base crit rate, plus 10% from wrath 5 if you hold on to it, plus 5% average from IR (20% with 1/4 uptime), and the final ~5% from gear.Quote:
Parsing data shows WAR as having a 25% crit rate in regular use. I'm not sure if this includes Release usage.
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10-02-2013, 07:34 AMLhunA lot of things, actually. Sometimes it's good to translate the Japanese forums of the same sections to see what they're saying. One of our biggest issues is that the translation of the game, especially on tooltips is actually really bad in some cases.Quote:
What ARE they saying? I can't imagine them not having the same problems as us. What do their threads say? If anything, JP players can be even more elitist when choosing party members than westerners ("JP ONRY", anyone?)
For example: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...text-incorrect.
please see the Japanese player's response to this bug report.
There's also some things most tanks don't realize yet that JP players seem to get. Like, for example, they believe if you're running from an AOE ability (using legacy camera mode for example) if you're not FACING THE MOB when it lands (and you didn't manage to get out of it in time) your chance to parry/block is effectively nil. You might even take more damage. -
10-02-2013, 08:10 AMGiantbaneA lot of the posts seemed like you were talking down to people. Which is a little more frustrating when you adopt this "you guys have this all wrong" tone and then proceed to throw out misinformation. It would probably help if you gave your posts a quick second read and really ask yourself whether you're sure about the content. And if you're not certain, it's fine to pose theories but maybe don't be so insistent about it until you've had a chance to test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
Also, I'm curious where you're getting the opinions of the JPN players. Do they seriously not feel that the WAR is a little lacking compared to the PLD? -
10-02-2013, 08:23 AMTronicTheir community seems awfully quiet. I checked out their pally forums, and they have 12 threads total, as opposed to our 375. Their biggest thread of all has 25 pages, whereas we have one with 64 on our first page of threads. It seems they're not very talkative (or perhaps their community as a whole communicates on non-official forums?). I used google translate on the last page of that 25-page thread, and coincidentally they were bitching about Yoshida's L2P quote and how they were planning on rerolling if there wasn't a war buff haha. I get the impression the JP community is nowhere as dynamic as the western community tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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10-02-2013, 09:49 AMLhunThey spend less time on the forums here, and more time on 2ch, I feel. Also, structure of the days for them allow for less leisure time. Most play 2-5 hours on weekdays - they do not have access to the forums at work as we do often. White collar is much more strict there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tronic
Tronic, I think it's great that you asked the JP community directly!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...47#post1361747
however, the thread you refer to is: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...E3%83%AC/page5 and it's incredibly 50/50.
Nonohana is a very vocal player who feels that warrior is gimped on true Titan true Garuda and Bahamut because we currently do not have access to the iLvl80 gear we're supposed to get from crystal tower, and he warns that there is a lot of missing content like the Wall that will require the additional DPS and binding mechanic War brings to the table. He played through the entire beta and laments that 1.0 was better in a lot of ways. -
10-02-2013, 09:54 AMLhun
Google translates very poorly, For example:
"What I thought I look always here for you, is that too much to downplay the total firepower of the tank first. They are like night do it if whine 's better to simply hard. The first place as to whether has given how much damage a whole when it comes to level of Bahamut is also a very important indicator.Is there also be over there will become a wall to say Do not you have to give in time the number of damage within the time limit, and can not be cleared. It is because I thought I's up now night and there is a need is not limited to just a matter of demand, know this difference properly. Such thing as tank, is good if not die. It is also good if neglected play the total damage because they are soft do it, but I such as do not know the meaning firepower such as high tank, and or that the discussion to forget the presence of Mame from the first page, and I chose warrior why Well, then. job hardness and thermal also is balanced or will be good. That you would have known from the beginning, those who have a shield Nante stiff. And also clearly hardness that is required in Nora. It is lonely is the best way will be nuances Nante only different. Is not no way Warrior is the disadvantage do it may say even disadvantage is not investigated thoroughly to say that there is no meaning to attack the image. Or would that there is an advantage of what the night if the same hardness On the contrary."
I'll see if I can do better.
"I come to this forum, and always look for the comments from you that say that damage from the tank is useless. Your comments say if they (Warrior) are like Knight (PLD) it's better to simply go all out DEF. How much damage you do as a whole is important when you get to the play level of (Coils of) Bahamut is a important factor that tank damage (is important). You will encounter stages where if you do not do enough damage in time, you will not clear it."
The rest isn't too bad to understand, he's saying that people forget to keep maim up, "thermal" means "heat" which means "threat". He's saying Nora and Nante are done differently and that endgame content requires a mixture of classes to do well, and that the majority of things are just fine for warrior, and that some things are better for warrior, because killing it faster will become more important later. "Hardness" is talking about damage mitigation.
basically:Quote:
今後も上位実装モンスターが実装されるからキツいという見方は分かるんですが、IL80が適正でクリスタルタワーが公開されていない所為ということはないんでしょうか
You are right in thinking that warrior is having a hard time because of the lack of IL80 gear.
Lots of people are saying "wait for CT, and 2.1"
Forum limit reached for the day. :( Anyway - another thing to note is the following:
While they don't REPLY often (many of them are not so bold as to contribute unless they have something extremely meaningful, it's cultural) more of them read the threads more then we do. Their "warrior" thread?
Replies: 246
Views: 61,150
ours?
Replies: 640
Views: 55,119 -
10-02-2013, 10:32 AMKitruI have to wonder how much of that is cultural. The Japanese, as a whole, are much more subservient/respectful to authority than western cultures tend to be. Rather than venting, they might not say anything because they would feel uncomfortable otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tronic
Conversely, they might not be talking because they're used to substantial performance imbalances between classes fulfilling the same role, as most Asian-style MMOs tend to do. Rather than being an issue that needs to be addressed, they're simply resigned to dealing with it. -
10-03-2013, 05:23 AMLhunYou are correct, my apologies. Since I most often use vengeance and bloodbath when tanking add-on with overpower, I'm typically building wrath that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by JormungandrVanagandr
I have corrected my above post, and corrected the inconsistencies and made corrections to the stats in my initial post. -
10-03-2013, 05:32 AMTronicVery good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
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10-03-2013, 04:01 PMAridElfPeople like you are the reason I stick to WAR. I'm nowhere near ready for coil, hell I haven't even done Garuda HM yet, but knowing there are others out there that believe WAR are viable when done right really boosts my confidence to keep pushing forwards. Even if we do get a buff because the majority thinks it sucks, that just means those that know how to play WAR correctly will be even better. Good luck with your research!Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl