Warriors - Rerolls

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Originally Posted by VeersMorgan

As an aside, irrc there was a dev quote about them expecting fewer than 100 groups to beat all turns of the coil before Crystal Tower. With content tuned to that extreme, it's a lot more likely to see strongly favored party compositions, the implication being that if a player always want to be positioned to beat content like that when first released, it may be necessary to level all of the jobs for a given party role.

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This isn't entirely viable. Yes, extremely tuned content may favor certain classes, but to be impossible with a specific class is beyond imbalanced.

The bigger issue is gear. Even if I have a PLD and WAR at level 50 (I don't), I would still have a big disadvantage for one or the other in gear. I picked up my Baruva +1 the other day on my WAR. For my PLD getting my Relic +1 would mean another 3 weeks of farming, meaning I'm essentially 3 weeks behind because of my class choice.

Swapping between the classes is good and all, but it's not 100% viable with the current mythology cap.

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Originally Posted by Kyzr

It's cute that after reading skipping this entire thread, you still think that's accurate.

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Of course i did, there is like 2 real warriors here and a bunch of whiners who most likely suck at playing warrior, i see warriors with no complaints doin it just as good as pld.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

Bullshit sorry,... yes, Warriors are agressiv, Paladin defensive, both are tanks, yes. but Paladin is way better then Warrior.

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why is it better because you say so? they are both completely different jobs, you cant even compare them other than the fact they are both "tanks", if your expecting all the jobs to be the equivalent to the other, you are playing the wrong game. A warrior can do things better than a paladin and the same goes for paladin. As far as i can see your expecting all the tanks to be the same. Maybe you guys need to unequip the warrior soul because your obviously not ready for it.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

Maybe you guys need to unequip the warrior soul because your obviously not ready for it.

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Says the non-Warrior

There is nothing in the game currently that a Warrior can do that a Paladin can not do better. You don't know what you're talking about. You're not even really at endgame and you honestly know nothing about playing a Warrior.

It's not about expecting the tanks to be the same. It's about expecting them to be roughly equivalent in effectiveness when it comes to their role: Tanking. which they aren't. Not even remotely.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

Of course i did, there is like 2 real warriors here and a bunch of whiners who most likely suck at playing warrior, i see warriors with no complaints doin it just as good as pld. why is it better because you say so? they are both completely different jobs, you cant even compare them other than the fact they are both "tanks", if your expecting all the jobs to be the equivalent to the other, you are playing the wrong game. A warrior can do things better than a paladin and the same goes for paladin. As far as i can see your expecting all the tanks to be the same. Maybe you guys need to unequip the warrior soul because your obviously not ready for it.

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So, you say, Warrior is just good wor multiple Add Tank? because thats the only Thing what Warrior can do better then Paladin.
So you say, the only and really only work for Warrior is just to Tank some Adds?

Look at the skills, look what People say here.

SE said, Paladin is a tank who reduce incoming dmg, and Warrior should be who conter the dm with his selfheal.
WAHT selfheal?
Bloodbath 40-100 per hit
Stormspath all 9sec 100-150
IB all 20sec 800 if we use some other CD we can get 1500-2000 but only all 2mins.

Yeah, Paladin and Warrior are diffrent Tank types, but at least they should to the same Job properly¨
After Ifrit HM, by Garuda or Titan HM, do you really think the Healer feels if Warrios use Bloodbath oder Stormspath? NO F... WAY

But the Healer feels your 20%/40%/100% dmg reduction, and slo your 60% more block (block = 20-24% dmg reduction)

In MMORPGs there is no Place for a Class that is just there to Tank Multiple Adds, beside, Paladin can to the same Job also, and Healer have less Problems to heal them then a Warrior.
SE Said, we have 2 Tank Class and 2 Heal Class, both are individuell but can do the same Job.
Yes Warrior can Tank Titan HM and also Coil, but, AND THATS THE MAIN POINT, Paladin is easier to heal. and waht choice makes a Group? they choose the easier way, and that mean Paladin.

I know, you are a Paladinfanboy and like all the other Fanboys out there, you fear taht SE will Buff Warrior, so Group can choose Warrior or Paladin doenst matter.
Right now everyone prefer Paladin becauce ist easier for the Group.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

i see warriors with no complaints doin it just as good as pld.

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out of curiosity, how do you judge that they're doing it as well as PLD?

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

A warrior can do things better than a paladin and the same goes for paladin.

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What do you feel a WAR can do better than a PLD that is important for tanking.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

A warrior can do things better than a paladin and the same goes for paladin.

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Care to tell me what exactly *does* it do better?

Damage wise, an MT WAR has to choose between just *barely* edging out a PLDs threat but dealing a crapton less damage or just *barely* edging out a PLDs damage but generating a crapton less enmity. A WAR requires more healing than a PLD does. A WAR has a worse burst CD suite than a PLD does. The only thing that a WAR has that a PLD doesn't is self heals, and those are only an advantage when you don't have a healer, which doesn't happen in any group content that I know of, especially since a WAR burning self heals is going to survive less than 10 seconds (which is what a PLD could guarantee they survive with Hallowed Ground) against an 8 man boss by her lonesome. WAR even has an arguably harder time with AoE threat thanks to the massive opportunity cost incurred by Overpower.

It's a complete and utter fallacy that *anything* that a WAR does better than a PLD is even remotely useful and, comically enough, it's not even the stuff that people bring up all the time that they end up doing better than PLD.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Says the non-Warrior

There is nothing in the game currently that a Warrior can do that a Paladin can not do better. You don't know what you're talking about. You're not even really at endgame and you honestly know nothing about playing a Warrior.

It's not about expecting the tanks to be the same. It's about expecting them to be roughly equivalent in effectiveness when it comes to their role: Tanking. which they aren't. Not even remotely.

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I'm not at end game, seriously? you do realize im on BC right? a couple cm runs and i have my relic +1, so im not sure what your talking about not at end game? Secondly i am in the process of leveling warrior to 50. Warriors do more damage and have alot more aoe capability, you will see bosses in the future where a pld and war are best together not a pld and a pld. I dont need another pld with me i would like a warrior. You dont need 2 chicken scratchers running around, a warrior hits a hell of alot harder.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

You dont need 2 chicken scratchers running around, a warrior hits a hell of alot harder.

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No, it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

I'm not at end game, seriously? you do realize im on BC right? a couple cm runs and i have my relic +1, so im not sure what your talking about not at end game? Secondly i am in the process of leveling warrior to 50. Warriors do more damage and have alot more aoe capability, you will see bosses in the future where a pld and war are best together not a pld and a pld. I dont need another pld with me i would like a warrior. You dont need 2 chicken scratchers running around, a warrior hits a hell of alot harder.

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So you're in BC with Ifrit weapon and white Jewelry? No Relic? Not even garuda weapon? If you can manage with that kind of gear it should set off some obvious bells. No way a WAR would be able to touch Binding Coil with your level of gear. Hell, they probably would have a hard time with titan in that gear.

"AoE capacity" doesn't matter, considering there isn't a single fight where "aoe" threat matters. And even if there ever is one, a PLD will be better able to survive while tanking it - the paltry 100 damage aoe that WAR can contribute for 140 TP isn't enough to matter anyway.

Also you are wrong on the damage. At best a warrior has a slight advantage (~5-10% depending), and at worst is at a disadvantage (while not tanking a PLD will put out more dmg than a WAR, unless Sword Oath is bugged, in which case WAR will again be ahead by ~2-4%).

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

I know, you are a Paladinfanboy and like all the other Fanboys out there, you fear taht SE will Buff Warrior, so Group can choose Warrior or Paladin doenst matter.
Right now everyone prefer Paladin becauce ist easier for the Group.

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No one is scared of SE buffing warrior lol, hopefully they do so you guys stop whining and i dont have to play with another pld doing jack shit in my groups. Also i have never been a paladin fanboy i played ninja on ffxi till the day i quit.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

out of curiosity, how do you judge that they're doing it as well as PLD?

What do you feel a WAR can do better than a PLD that is important for tanking.

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1. They are clearing all the content available atm.

2. I would much rather have a warrior in my group than another paladin doing no dmg and not tanking, warriors do alot more dmg and can pick up large groups of adds alot easier than i can.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

So you're in BC with Ifrit weapon and white Jewelry? No Relic? Not even garuda weapon? If you can manage with that kind of gear it should set off some obvious bells. No way a WAR would be able to touch Binding Coil with your level of gear. Hell, they probably would have a hard time with titan in that gear.

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Jewelry isnt even close to the upgrade the armors give, should be obvious why i did them first. Why the hell do i want a garuda weapon when i already told you im a few hundred phil stones from relic +1?

Your also saying sword oaths bonus of 50 auto attack dmg makes them do more than a warrior?

Like i said ZealHoss

Do you really think, Warrior is just in the game for Tanking Multiple Adds nothing more?

We Warriors are TANK, and we want to TANK, not just grab Adds because we have Overpower. thats bullshit sorry.


Healer prefers Paladin as MT because ist easier to Keep them alive, thats why SE Need to Buff some abilities from Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

Like i said ZealHoss

Do you really think, Warrior is just in the game for Tanking Multiple Adds nothing more?

We Warriors are TANK, and we want to TANK, not just grab Adds because we have Overpower. thats bullshit sorry.


Healer prefers Paladin as MT because ist easier to Keep them alive, thats why SE Need to Buff some abilities from Warrior.

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With the content that is out at the moment (being very little) yes i do think warrior is best for adds, and i would rather be tanking with a warrior than another paladin any day. Soon enough warriors will be tanking everything, but they are using FF's job system the warrior will never be a paladin, you will most likely just get a buff to leach skills, and probably cross class rampart from gladiator, unless you already have rampart? Even if you all think you suck there is still paladins around that want you guys around, give yourselves more credit.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

Jewelry isnt even close to the upgrade the armors give, should be obvious why i did them first. Why the hell do i want a garuda weapon when i already told you im a few hundred phil stones from relic +1?

Your also saying sword oaths bonus of 50 auto attack dmg makes them do more than a warrior?

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And jewelry is a smaller upgrade, but if you're doing coil, or having success with that level of gear on Titan, again, that is pretty telling as far as balance goes.

And yes, Sword Oath's 50 potency attack is enough to put them past WAR, as long as it's not bugged as some people have claimed.

It's actually pretty obvious. A PLD going all out in sword oath will steal aggro from a WAR in defiance on equal gear levels.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

With the content that is out at the moment (being very little) yes i do think warrior is best for adds, and i would rather be tanking with a warrior than another paladin any day. Soon enough warriors will be tanking everything, but they are using FF's job system the warrior will never be a paladin, you will most likely just get a buff to leach skills, and probably cross class rampart from gladiator, unless you already have rampart? Even if you all think you suck there is still paladins around that want you guys around, give yourselves more credit.

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So wait with the content out at the moment you think WAR are fairly relegated to tanking adds, despite the fact that there is no content out at the moment in which adds actually need to be tanked?

Even if this made a remote modicum of sense, it would mean WAR is only desirable on fights in which adds are present (presumably not 100%) while PLD is desirable on fights in which a boss is present (presumably 100%).

And no, WAR does not have rampart. The best WAR defensive cooldown is Convalescence. Second best is Featherfoot. Third best is Berserk. Fourth best is Awareness. Our class cooldowns are largely ineffective (bloodbath, foresight), which is part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

1. They are clearing all the content available atm.

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They *can* clear much of the content available (although there's some question about whether they're actually able to clear the end of bahamut's coil at all).

But that doesn't mean they're necessarily doing as well. If it requires the WAR to have better gear, work harder on using their abilities appropriately AND requires their healers to work harder and play better in order to keep the WAR alive, then I don't think that means they're doing as well. You being in coil with an ifrit weapon and white jewelry is sort of telling. Can a WAR do that?

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

2. I would much rather have a warrior in my group than another paladin doing no dmg and not tanking, warriors do alot more dmg and can pick up large groups of adds alot easier than i can.

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Ignoring whether or not that's true, trying to justify a WAR being better because he's better as makeshift DD seems like a poor justification for a tank class being balanced.

WAR can generate threat on AoE targets better than a PLD as long as they stand relatively still so you can keep them in front of you to spam overpower. Overpower *is* better at generating more threat immediately, but it's not that cut and dry.

1)Overpower has a big wind up, so there's about 1sec between when you hit the button and when the ability comes out. Flash is instant, which is why I often use it to get initial agro on groups in order to set up overpower spam.

2)Switching defiance on/off is not as clean as switching between sword oath/shield oath. Sword/Shield oath is a simple toggle, swap to one and you're immediately ready to go. However, when you switch to defiance, you don't get that extra HP for free. You require healing the instant you switch. You also don't have any wrath stacks, so you need to pop infuriate immediately, which means it's then not available for tanking for another min.

3)WAR is likely to require more healing than the PLD does on the adds. Aside from the PLD's default ability to mitigate dmg, a PLD flash also gets blind so you're probably getting hit less too. So if the adds are at all threatening to the add tank, then the WAR may not be as beneficial because they also have the greater risk of dying.

4)Overpower also eats up *lots* of TP, so the WAR may be TP starved when he goes back to DPS if he needs to overpower spam too much and he will rely on other classes to restore it for him. A PLD can spam flash till OOM and either rely on other classes to restore it *OR* switch to Riot Blade to restore it himself. So the PLD is a lot more self sufficient this way, not to mention off tanking will in no way inhibit his ability to return to the DPS role. Overpower spam might run the WAR out of TP, causing him to potentially take a hit when returning to DPS.

dont compare FFXI with FFXIV, i also played FFXI, and there FFXI was Warrior a full Tank, then Paladin and Ninja came, and Warrior was a full DD, here in FFXIV warrior can never be a full dd, tahts a fact.
so you say Warrior is just fine as halfbacked Tank JUST, and only for tank Adds, nothing more? what bullshit sorry.

in this world no MMORPG can bring up a "Tank Class" ONLY for the reason to tank Adds.

Tank class can Tank everything, just diffrent, like i said, some Tank reduce incoming dmg, other Tanks selfheal himselfs but at the end of the day, all tank should do the same Job equal. but Warrior and Paldin are not equal right now, there is a huge gap between These 2 class

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Originally Posted by ZealHoss

Jewelry isnt even close to the upgrade the armors give, should be obvious why i did them first. Why the hell do i want a garuda weapon when i already told you im a few hundred phil stones from relic +1?

Your also saying sword oaths bonus of 50 auto attack dmg makes them do more than a warrior?

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In a short summary, he is flat out telling you that you do not know wtf you are talking about, and he would be quite correct.

I don't play a warrior. But my friend does. I'll say this by way of encouragement. I've killed Titan HM a few times now. Every kill was with a warrior tanking and it wasn't my buddy everytime either.

OP Yoshi said the devs are strong with them in the development areas. This is where they test the buffs nerfs and content. If warriors are strong in the dev area it's most likely due to them getting buffed. That's hardly a learn to play answer, odds are you never read his full post read maybe 1/4 of it and now are trying to quote it.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

A PLD going all out in sword oath will steal aggro from a WAR in defiance on equal gear levels.

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LOL this guy's obviously a Derp no paladin can keep hate from a warrior. I had a paladin argue this with me once, I let him tank a boss in CM down to half health told him to go all out the entire fight and by the time the mob went from 50% to 35% the paladin hat lost aggro and i had a large gap already established according to the aggro meters. Please know the truth before posting next time.

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Originally Posted by Blazn

This is where they test the buffs nerfs and content. If warriors are strong in the dev area it's most likely due to them getting buffed. That's hardly a learn to play answer, odds are you never read his full post read maybe 1/4 of it and now are trying to quote it.

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Yoshida would have been better served by saying "we're testing some changes to warrior and now they look really strong. Please look forward to 2.1" and it would have prevented this OP and some of the arguments that have broken out.

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Originally Posted by Blazn

LOL this guy's obviously a Derp no paladin can keep hate from a warrior.

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Using Sword Oath, no PLD will be able to keep aggro off of a WAR in Defiance, but that's due to the enmity modifiers implicit in the stances. Using Shield Oath, assuming equal gear, a PLD will *easily* be able to outdo a WAR on enmity generation because they get to spam Halone rather than WAR having to splice in Storm's Eye (a WAR *could* manage more threat by just spamming BB, but, at that point, they're dropping their damage to a laughable low level and turning their self-heals, especially Inner Beast, into a complete and utter joke).

Anyone that thinks that WARs are somehow the damage or enmity kings are only exposed to the most idiotic PLDs. Any PLD worth its salt will put out much better numbers ("worth its salt" is predicated upon using Spirits Within and). It's not even theoretical: I've ripped threat off of WARs *numerous* times while playing PLD; I've also done the same on WAR but, if there's a competent PLD that I don't outgear, I'm going to be fighting that PLD the entire time to keep aggro.

I regularly play both PLD and WAR. I know how to play them both *damned* well. PLD *does* generate better enmity. The SE combo *really* eats into your ability to generate. There are a lot of WARs that stick their heads in the sand and forget about that.

I'm going to roll Paladin to 50 as well, because while Warrior is great at what it does, it suffers against heavy damage. Warrior is currently built to be a trash/add tank, and I have no problem with that, as I played a similar role on my bear druid in WoW. Our platey facerolled the boss and I tore all of the adds to shreds. If I tried to main-tank hard hitting bosses like Tortos, I required a lot of healing and was prone to sudden death syndrome due to a lack of anti-spike tools, but I held aggro much better on multiple mobs and did more than my share in mowing them down.

As soon as people start overgearing the content, WAR will start to become the preferred class even against raid bosses due to their damage output and higher health pool. Right now, though, PLD is the way to go if you want to clear Coil. As easy as it is to level up and gear alternate jobs, I don't see it as a major issue. Suck up your pride and do what's best for your group. You'll get your chances to play WAR.

I agree with Corka except I am going to opposite route as he is. I have my PLD at 50 and am currently gearing him, getting close to full DL. On the side I am leveling a WAR so we can clear previous content quick to help gear the rest of the FC, and its more fun as a WAR. New content, PLD. Farming Content, WAR.

Just how I am doing it.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Using Sword Oath, no PLD will be able to keep aggro off of a WAR in Defiance, but that's due to the enmity modifiers implicit in the stances.

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This isn't the case. Try it some time. A PLD in sword oath will pull off of you as a WAR, assuming the PLD is spamming Rage of Halone. Shield Oath / Defiance aren't even remotely close to doubling enmity generation.

Hachiko is correct, Sword oath generates far more threat then shield oath. It’s not even close between the two. The put it in more of a perspective A full grown man (sword oath) VS a child (Shield Oath) in a Tug-O-War contest. Sword Oath is just going to grab that rope and start walking away dragging shield oath with it.

There's been testing done. Shield oath gives more enmity.

With all this whining I can see warriors excelling greatly in the near future, whether they're buffed for PvE or dominate PvP to compensate.
Brb levelling a warrior.

For Coil, a Warrior is fine for everything except taking hits from Twintania due to the mechanics of Auto attack + Death Sentence + that other attack I forget the name of.
So really, Warriors are fine for 99% of the tanking to do in the game right now.

Paladins aren't as effective for multi-threat in very time-sensitive fights like the Elevator boss. Much prefer having the Warrior tank all the adds while the Paladin tanks Dreadnoughts.

Thats how we roll however.

We just really know that the Warrior CANNOT tank Twintania - everything else is plenty fine.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I regularly play both PLD and WAR. I know how to play them both *damned* well. PLD *does* generate better enmity. The SE combo *really* eats into your ability to generate. There are a lot of WARs that stick their heads in the sand and forget about that.

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A shame we aint on the same server, i would love to see you stealing aggro off me when i am doing 600 BB crits.Cute PLD is cute.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

Lets just say, a healer have a harder time to heal WAR then PLD

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As a healer if you queue up and get a war tank its easier and faster to just leave the instance and re-queue in 15 mins. Not really any point to healing that class at all.

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Originally Posted by Synol

As a healer if you queue up and get a war tank its easier and faster to just leave the instance and re-queue in 15 mins. Not really any point to healing that class at all.

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Well, at least I'd know I wouldn't get a baddie healer like yourself using this method. Any content that can be run with the Duty Finder can be completed with a Warrior just as easily as a PLD. This is coming from a Warrior and a Scholar.

It's depressing when I go into something like Titan hard mode and I know that I'm going to die due to the healers because I'm not a PLD or that we're going to wipe because people can't dodge. People not dodging is the number one cause of wipes, but even if we get past that, I just can't expect healers to keep me alive even when I use cooldowns and IB to counter Mountain Buster. I know this would be much easier as a PLD, and that's the problem. I actually have to beat Titan on WAR, and it's depressing that when I'm sitting in full DL and have garuda's axe that I still can't do it because healers can't top me off / react to mountain buster. And if we have a PLD, and I go DPS mode, I always get people who keep on dying to staying in the weight of the land attacks.

I got my Pally up to 50 a couple days ago and am now in the process of leveling my Warrior (technically still a Marauder at 27). I mainly enjoy tanking and expect SE will keep tinkering with both main tank classes).

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

Bullshit sorry,... yes, Warriors are agressiv, Paladin defensive, both are tanks, yes. but Paladin is way better then Warrior.

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Sadly I agree. Our self heals are cool but one heal for 700-1200 health every 30 seconds or so from inner beast doesn't compare to 20% damage reduction from a toggle skill -.-

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Sadly I agree. Our self heals are cool but one heal for 700-1200 health every 30 seconds or so from inner beast doesn't compare to 20% damage reduction from a toggle skill -.-

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If you are really comparing Inner beast to Shield oath your doing it wrong.

I'm re-rolling to a miner.

YoshiP make me laught, saying "Warrior are very strong, they need to learn to play" by saying that, he also talk about every healer that are having harder time to heal WAR. So basicaly... Screw all your experience of other MMO... Screw your End game hard mode of WoW, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, Rift, all of you guys dont know how to play /adapt. Screw your obvious Theorycrafting , screw mathematics (LOL), you guys just need to learn of to play.

Another thing... Does FFXIV has a PTR? I dont think so, so who test their end game ? YoshiP Little sister that play to collect mini-pet? Or that girl that paint her nail with Moogle?

Im not a World first style player, but when all the world first player say that Warrior is WAY worse than paladin in the tanking/mitigation aspect of the game, I guess i need to trust them.

Ive Killed Titan HM and First boss of Coil (onw to kill second boss) but saying WAR are as good a PAL for tanking is like saying Hallowed ground is equal to Thrill of Battle...

Another thing... Does he say that WAR are strong for 4 man dungeon and CM ? because YES they are very strong for that, but who care about being strong for easy content?

TLDR : If YoshiP tell the truth that all healer and WAR need to relearn to play, he need to prove it, free word are just too easy.

Its fine, atleast till Turn 5.

He told me to do some research and learn how to play. So I researched and learned how to reroll a paladin. It all worked out, he's right.

PS
Please look forward to seeing more paladins, kthxbye.