A Thread By A Tank For Future/Current Tanks.

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Originally Posted by Lasair_Shiorai

I have no idea the reason but the enemies would break focus from him mid way into the battle then set their sites on the healer.

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Two possibilities I can think of:

- The tank was using DPS-oriented combos instead of high-enmity combos. He would generate less enmity than he might otherwise, and if he isn't being defensive he'd have to be healed more, causing more heal enmity.

- Overhealing. In this game overhealing causes threat the same as regular healing. Spamming heals when they aren't needed generates a lot of unnecessary threat. Better to keep the tank close to full health but not aim to fill him up with every cast (unless you know a big hit is coming).

The only thing DPS might have contributed to that situation would be to get hit a lot by AoE or enemy skills, since that would force the healer to heal them and generate more healing enmity.

I am sure there are tanks out there that need experiences and there are many people(myself included) that are okay with that but from my experience the tanks i have to deal with that are bad are just plain bad.

1.) if you are a 50 tank and still have not learned the proper rotation to hold agro, that's your fault, all the mimicking in the world wont fix it.

2.) If i specifically show you where and how to pull a boss(AK last boss comes to mind) and you screw it up 5 times in a row and get it right the 6th time and reply with "well you should of told me to do it that way the first time" nd yes this actually happens than you are bad.

3.) If people explain simple mechanics such as "move the dragon off the green stuff" and u tunnel than yes you are bad.

There are times when the tank is getting chewed out for mistakes that i due to them being inexperienced and in those cases i do defend them but there are A LOT of tanks that do the above and it is irritating. Low levels its w/e but at level 50 you should get a general understanding of how your class works and if you cant do simple things suck as hold agro at 50 than you cant expect a lot of people to have patience with you.

Thanks for the thread ! It's nice to see a topic like this about us tanks :)

yesterday I was tanking on my little baby marauder, lvl 11. I joined the lvl 10 training ground. some little whitemage (!!) decided to cast medica (!!!) right of the bat and zing had about 10 enemies on him. what does little whitemage do? run away of course, stopping every few seconds to cast cure. needless to say, whitemage died, then lay on the ground watching us run around in circles (naturally the two dps also decided running around in circles would be a good idea, while keep on attacking)
I took the time to type in chat 'revive please and don't run away from me when you have aggro'... to which mister whitemage just replied with 'no u deserve to die u suck'
a miracle happened and the dps and I were able to kill the first rush of mobs (I was getting healed by one of them)
then the whm revived and I tell the archer to draw one of the next group out so we don't get the boss in right away. what does the whitemage do? puts his freaking dot on the boss and the whole 'I'm a headless chicken' game starts all over again.
mind you, this is the first guildhest, specifically called 'training grounds'. you are supposed to LEARN in this. if someone's trying to help you - which I honestly did, because I have 10+ years of 'experience' healing in MMOs, then you don't get all cocky. you also don't tell people they suck. you tell them what they did wrong (and I'm 110% sure I didn't actually do anything wrong. it's not like there's so many different skills I could have used at lvl 11. I could probably have used cure to try and 'outaggro' the healer's heals... ahem) but I bet this whitemage behaves the same way in dungeons actually appropriate for their level, too (with the only difference being that a tank has more skills to 'counter' the derp)

I wanted to curl up in a ball for an hour after that experience.

reason why I'm posting this?
I dislike tanking. or at least it's not my 'favourite job' by any means.
why I do it anyway? because you only truly know 'what it's like' if you actually play the role. my main focus for now is bard and whitemage. so this idiot of a whitemage made me especially upset. when you have people like that in your group there is literally NOTHING you can do as a tank. you can only pray the dps single out a target, you get aggro of a handful of enemies so the spamheals don't do too much.

same way I do encourage tanks to AT LEAST level up a healer for a couple of levels so they realise how easy it is to get aggro - especially in early levels - and how much they need to look out for us (really, your just is not .just. to watch the dps. a dps can usually take 1-2 hits but a healer can surely not. you do not want them busy with healing themselves instead of healing you ;D)

Another pet peeve of mine is 8 mans and who get's to be the main tank and the off tank. I was in an 8 with another war (both war's) with 5200 hp and he had 4900 hp. I had better rings, neck, I had food etc etc. I also had a better weapon. As such I was able to tank stuff and hold threat, but he kept loosing it. Also I had provoke and his gladiator was only level 10 or so and didn't have provoke. Yet he kept calling Main Tank on all the bosses. Every single encounter I had to watch the boss leave and go after our healer. Where I would have to provoke it, then get into an enimity rotation on it. Get it in position, then switch back to a DPS rotation so he could get hate back, but nope the WHM got it again. So I just held it the whole fight.

Then after the encounter he's like "Man, don't provoke it, I couldn't get it off you for nothing". But that was intentional. I stayed in my enmity rotation for the entire encounter and I was pulling a lot more than him so of course he couldn't get it off me.

My point... The person with the best hate management/gear should be Main Tanking. I really can't think of a reason why this should not be true.

In another dungeon run, I had 5200 hp and the other WAR (2 again) had 5700 and had their hard mode ifrit weapon, blue rings, etc (really nice gear) so he main tanked the entire encounter and I was cool with that. They were better suited for it. They were also experienced with the run and we did a speed run, clearing it in 30 mins for 100 tombs.

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Originally Posted by Ryios

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I can totally relate. Hahah.

My second point is that many tanks are Egotistically bad players. What I mean by this is they let their ego's and their pride drive them. They are blinded by it. They don't see they are having threat issues and that the person they told to OT isn't. They just want to keep trying when they obviously cannot succeed due to gear/rotation etc. And the OT is sitting their the whole time like "When is he going to realize that I can do this and we could be done with this".

Tanks need to realize their weaknesses and other's strengths and make plays accordingly and not let their ego/pride get in the way.

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Originally Posted by Ryios

My point... The person with the best hate management/gear should be Main Tanking. I really can't think of a reason why this should not be true.

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I don't know if I 100% agree with that. A lot of bosses in Castrum are actually easier for the MT than the OT. For example, the ones with adds can leverage provoke much better. Since the other tank you were with didn't have provoke, he was really only good for Main Tanking honestly.

With that said, if he couldn't hold threat he didn't know what he was doing. I had no problem in CM with horrible gear (Stone Vigil Axe). It likely had nothing to do with his gear, just him not knowing that he needs to use butcher's block.

And if you're ever on OT duty, imo you should still keep an eye on threat meters. Just put yourself in between the tank and where all the other high DPS / Heals are, so if the tank does die the boss will immediately switch to you. You can do this pretty easily outside of defiance, because you will be doing more damage and this will generally offset the enmity generation. Just be mindful of how often you butcher's block.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

And if you're ever on OT duty, imo you should still keep an eye on threat meters. Just put yourself in between the tank and where all the other high DPS / Heals are, so if the tank does die the boss will immediately switch to you. You can do this pretty easily outside of defiance, because you will be doing more damage and this will generally offset the enmity generation. Just be mindful of how often you butcher's block.

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This is what provoke is good for, no need to maintain threat for any of the fights yet as OT, if MT dies provoke and use a threat grab skill, then start ur rotation up.
Now if they add neat mechanics later where being a specific posistion on the threat table matters, THAT would be cool

I usually play a DD in just about every mmo, but as can be seen, I'm not one to shy away from tanking. I've tanked for my FC-to-be (just need to think of the name) several times and been very lucky in that none of them have ever given me a hard time... though that might be because we're all newbs and have no clue what we're doing. XP

It's been a blast so far, regardless, but I have to admit: I've made a lot of friends out in the field simply by pulling adds off of them or by stepping between them and something that is giving them a hard time on my glad/mar! Met my first in-game friend doing that. :)

I'll become a tank one day should the samurai class or another sword based class come into the fray. Axes are retarded and GLD is just...bleh.

I'm a fairly new tank (WAR) started lvling it in 1.0 (only got to 36 or so before the servers went down) and hit 50 recently. I had no issues keeping hate until 45ish, not quite sure what changed but it's literately like i dont get the mobs attention at all anymore >.< I dont have provoke yet but i plan on getting it asap since i might have to tank something serious in the future. But i kinda feel like I'm missing something else besides that because i'll spam flash/overpower when there's multiple mobs and not be able to get hate from all of them (it worked quite well pre lvl 45). I have no issues if it's one target like a boss that i have to worry about but when theres more than 1, shit hits the fan. I'm still in AF since i just hit 50 but i have the mog axe from 1.0. what else can i do? or what am i doing wrong? <.>;

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Originally Posted by rtpsoulx

I have no issues if it's one target like a boss that i have to worry about but when theres more than 1, shit hits the fan. I'm still in AF since i just hit 50 but i have the mog axe from 1.0. what else can i do? or what am i doing wrong? <.>;

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It sounds like you aren't doing your opening rotation correctly. I was going to suggest it's gear but if you have the mog axe... then it's definitely a rotation problem.

Butcher's Block is your bread and butter. Your opener should probably be something like:

1. Tomahawk (possibly optional)
2. Heavy Swing
3. Skull Sunder
4. Butcher's Block
5. Heavy Swing
6. Maim
7. Storm's Path
8. Berserk
9. Unchained (optional, depending on encounter/your healers and gear)
10. Fracture
11. Return to 1


If you don't start off with Skull Sunder / Butcher's Block combo your enmity will be very low. Don't ever rely on Tomahawk or Overpower for enmity on a single target. They are not nearly as good as SS or BB. If you're still having problems it's probably because the DPS is opening up before you. They should wait at least until you've gotten off heavy swing to start throwing out the dps.

Good thread. But I think the bad behaviour of some tanks is simply the result of economics. Tanks are in demand, so they can pick and choose, or bail on the 1st wipe without even trying to communicate.

At the same time, there are alpha-tanks who won't take tips or advice from other roles because well, they're self-appointed 'leaders'.

Well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I'll probably make a pally after my whm is level-capped.

I want to play a tank in this game. But I am terrified of getting blamed for wipes, especially since I am already constantly criticizing everything I do myself. Maybe after I find a reliable FC and a mentor...

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

If you don't start off with Skull Sunder / Butcher's Block combo your enmity will be very low. Don't ever rely on Tomahawk or Overpower for enmity on a single target. They are not nearly as good as SS or BB. If you're still having problems it's probably because the DPS is opening up before you. They should wait at least until you've gotten off heavy swing to start throwing out the dps.

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Yeah i always tomahawk 1st mostly just to pull, but i thought going the miam route 1st would have been better so i get that dmg bonus when i go for the butchers block side. i guess now that i think about it starting with dmg would be better just to establish enmity then continue the rotations as i should. I dont overpower at all if its just 1 target, thats pointless. Sometimes those mages get instant full enmity even when i pull properly, it makes me feel bad/useless sitting spamming everything i can and not getting hate back.

Great read OP. I myself am a first time tank and MMO player. I try to make it my first priority so say "this is my first time in this dungeon any tips are welcome" at the start. If it's my 3rd or 4th and I still dont have it down I make the party aware. If people feel butt hurt that Im not doing my job right thats to bad. Now I can see if I say "this is my 60th time here any tips are welcomed" then by all means I deserve to be ridiculed to the fullest. I enjoy my experience as a tank so far . Learning as I go and taking tips from here. Haven't run into to many pricks (yet)

Great thread. You explained it pretty well, from the reasons that makes us want/like to tank, to the cons that we usually have. Of course, the good things always outweight the bad ones.

This is going to be useful for both tanks and non-tanks to better understand how tanking works (in general and in ARR), I'm sure :)

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Originally Posted by kemikal

I want to play a tank in this game. But I am terrified of getting blamed for wipes, especially since I am already constantly criticizing everything I do myself. Maybe after I find a reliable FC and a mentor...

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Don't be afraid and give it a go. You'll no doubt find some bad players that will blame you for everything, but there's also a lot of nice people that will be patient and will teach you a thing or two. No one starts knowing everything.

Also, even if being a bit critic with oneself is always a good thing to improve, you should also be a bit confident in what you do. Otherwise it's going to be worse because you won't have fun, and you'll be more susceptible to make mistakes. If something goes wrong then it goes wrong. You'll learn from it, as we all did (and still do hahaha), so don't worry a lot about it (or what some people might say) and just keep learning and improving.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

It sounds like you aren't doing your opening rotation correctly. I was going to suggest it's gear but if you have the mog axe... then it's definitely a rotation problem.

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If it's multiple mobs...

Flash -> Overpower -> (Mark your target) -> Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Butchers Block -> Overpower -> Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Butchers Block etc etc. You have to be popping out an aoe enimity on every rotation or you'll loose an add to heals/aoe dmg.

If possible, never break up Heavy Swing -> Skull Sunder -> Butcher block because they combo off each other and you get extra dmg and more enimity.

If your tanking a boss and way in the red not in risk of loosing hate, weave in a dps rotation with Heavy Swing -> Main -> (Forget name) with unchanged (if your not taking heavy dmg) to result in a fast kill. I tend to alternate them back and forth, one enimity rotation then one dps rotation, rense and repeat.

Use berserk when it's up (more dmg = more enimity), and use Inner beast to heal yourself when your enraged over unchainged (imo this is better for hate management because your healer heals you less). If absolutely necessary use the Root Ability (forget name) so the mob can't leave you for 5 seconds while you sink some enimity into it.

Inner BEast is absolutely awesome on Boss Fights with large hits. For example, on Garuda I would work to becoming infuriated and I would save it for SlipStream. Instantly on being hit with slipstream I would use Inner BEat to recover 600+ of the 2500 I just lost giving the healer and easier time on recovering me to 3500+ hp. Inner Beast is awesome, especially combined with Blood Bath. And once you get unfuriate you can get off two inner beasts, or inner beast and (unchained + blood bath)

I find I can solo many fate bosses alone, with no help, just using bloodbath and inner beast to sustain me. All thought usually I don't make the timer (to slow on killing it). My point is that Inner Beast restores a lot of health, like 33%+

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Originally Posted by Eliniell

I generally tend to do one of two things if a DPS pulls agro. If I'm at a point in my threat rotation that I can quickly taunt - enmity ability, I'll just do that. If not, I'll taunt - ranged enmity and then move to the mob to begin an enmity rotation to grab it back. Taunt is off the GCD, so you can immediately throw in something that will solidify your threat lead if you're quick. That doesn't mean DPS should still be going balls deep if they pull aggro though, at some point they need to realize that they should just stop pressing buttons. I've intentionally let plenty of DPS die because they decided to just start spamming the wrong mob, or decided to pull themselves or some such. Sure, it's my job to hold aggro, but it's your job as a DPS to make sure you aren't pulling hate by not letting me get more than a Shield Lob or Tomahawk off.

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I wish I could stamp this on the front of my shield.

<3 threads like this and hope more new tanks read it~ and I jsut want to stress that one section on Positioning LEARN IT LIVE IT LOVE IT, Positioning makes your life and EVERYONE's life easier.

Also because I didn't see this mentioned don't go running to the Boss if it has a scripted "jump away to do something/Fly off" i.e Garuda/ifrit They come BACK to you if you are at the top(which you should be) don't go to them~ go to your tanking spot D:

nothing worse then having them do a Cleave on you while you are busy kiting them back where you shoulda been and a Melee or caster gets caught in the cross fire and goes down

solid read and good encouragement.

thanks for writing. shout out to all you good tanks out there! Keep it up!

Based on my personal experience and understanding of gameplay, I generally consider tanks to be the default leaders of the group. This doesn't apply only during battle, when they dictate enemy positioning [and thus player positioning] and the pattern of the battle, but even when the party is exploring. Healers and DPS can't go first; we'll pull the aggro and we're squishy.

So, for any tanks out there, the party [nearly literally] can't move without you, and I hope you guys know that! I hope the really long and insightful post that the OP wrote helps out and inspires current and future tanks. Great tanks make my job keeping everyone alive and buffing so much easier, which means the DPS can kill everything much faster. No one role is more important than the other, and we all have to work together or else we'll all die.

While I was originally going to go for Dragoon, it is appearing that I am going to go for Warrior first. That being said, I fully intend to take only for my friends. I'm sorry all of you random blokes in the DF. I'm sure that some of you are good, decent people, but I have zero tolerance for behaving like a complete tool that some people do.

You know you need marauder to 30 and gladiator to 15 to be a warrior right?

I'm glad the majority of the people who read this like it. And it can at least explain to some people certain things and such about tanking.

just wonder what u mean by buff, bigger buff, stronger buff?

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Originally Posted by Fleoming

just wonder what u mean by buff, bigger buff, stronger buff?

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This is just based on Paladins.

Minor Buffs: (Buffs for the beginning phases or easy touch and go situations.)
Foresight (Increase defense percentage)
Awareness (Nullify crit chances)
Protect (Increases your defense. You kind of always need this on you anyways.)
Bloodbath (Combos, regular hits, provides a bit of HP in return. Every little bit helps.)
Flash (Blind causes more miss rate for enemies.)
Cure (Not a buff but if you can cast it while still maintaining aggro, it'll help.)
Stoneskin (Same thing with cure.)

Bigger Buffs:
Rampart (20% Reduced damage.)
Convalescence (Increases healing effectiveness by 30%)
Bulwark (Increases block rate. Might be considered a minor or biggest buff but I'm putting it here.)

The Biggest Buffs:
Hallowed Ground (Immunity to most damage for 10 seconds.)
Sentinel (40% reduced damage.)

That's what I mean by yeah. This is just what I think. It might be different to other people.

threads like this should be all over this forums. All I see are hate threads everywhere.

Yeah if anyone has any questions, you can come here or to the tank forums.

Very good thread. I'm a 28 Conj and a 12 Glad, and I have more fun with the Glad. I'll let you know how much I like it after my first dungeon run.

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Originally Posted by Shug

Very good thread. I'm a 28 Conj and a 12 Glad, and I have more fun with the Glad. I'll let you know how much I like it after my first dungeon run.

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:3 Sure. Are you going to be a Paladin?

The problem i see is that it is the most horrible experience of my life to hit the same 2 buttons ~Fast blade > Riot/Savage~ for 25 lvls on a gladiator (shield skills & extras aside). Its BORING, MONOTONOUS, and just lame.... *shrug*

just need to comment on one thing
Tank does not have the most lazy job.
i have played tank and healer in every MMO i have played and i would have to say Healers have the most lazy job.

not tryed end game yet so dont know how its there but so far ARR is the same as all other MMO's

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Originally Posted by lyse20

just need to comment on one thing
Tank does not have the most lazy job.
i have played tank and healer in every MMO i have played and i would have to say Healers have the most lazy job.

not tryed end game yet so dont know how its there but so far ARR is the same as all other MMO's

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I don't know if you read what I said but I said "Some bosses, some dungeons, some trials, you have the LAZIEST JOB ever if you're doing it right." Like Ifrit HM. Once you get the knack of things, you don't do much unless you're stunning. Or the last boss in AK, you simply position him correctly and just tank. Everyone else has to dodge and such but you stay in one spot. Or Titan HM, compared to everyone else, you don't have to dodge as much. Garuda HM, you have to lead everyone and do positioning. I think healers have the most hardest jobs in most of the end game ones. Especially Titan HM.

So! Since it's a tank thread, can I bum a little advice off you guys?

For a Warrior; am I going with STR or VIT, and why?

Thanks!

Great read. I appreciate this type of post.

I need to play a tank at some point in time (I'm always a healer) so I can better understand why certain issues pop up. Specifically I want to know when it's something the tank can correct or when it's just the nature of the dungeon. Right now I don't have the needed understanding of tank abilities. Issues I've personally run into are (1) some tanks taking far more damage than other tanks, sometimes even losing most of their health in 1 or 2 big hits (anecdotal, but GLA's seem to lose health easier than MRD's); and (2) tanks that lose aggro easily after only a couple casts of Cure 1.

The only things that I've had tanks do that made me unhappy were (1) not paying enough attention to notice I have aggro and am taking damage rapidly (in the higher dungeons I've played I can be nearly 3-shot by trash even with the correct level of gear); (2) constantly going AFK; and (3) complaining when I don't use my attack abilities in addition to my healing. This last one comes because I use Regen a lot and if the group is doing well enough I rarely need to cast. What people don't seem to realize is that things can go downhill rapidly and mana management is the name of the game for me. Plus my attention is already divided between health bars, my positioning so I avoid enemy attacks, and the dungeon itself. During hectic battles I already have a hard enough time even knowing what the dungeon looks like or how battles go. =/

As a healer, thank you for this thread! Donna thumbs up!

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Originally Posted by redisdrunk

So! Since it's a tank thread, can I bum a little advice off you guys?

For a Warrior; am I going with STR or VIT, and why?

Thanks!

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If I were to be a Warrior, I would still go 30 Vit and the reasons are the same as why I went 30 Vit on my Paladin. Even though STR has some importance, the VIT direction has more benefits.

30 Vit will give you around 500 health at level 50.
500 health will help with HP regeneration. The more health you have, the more you can regenerate. In a fight or boss fight, you'll regenerate during the whole fight. Though hardly noticeable, that little bit helps.
It also helps with scholar/white mage heals that provide percentage heals and such.
Vit also saves you a lot! Those fights where you live with just barely 200 - 300 health then BOOM, a mega heal.
As a Warrior, you'll heal more if you have more health too. Plus Mercy Strokes heals by percentage as well.

30 Str will help with damage but as a tank, you shouldn't be worried about damage but sustaining.
It will help with aggro but at end game, you'll have more than enough aggro control. I never had trouble with aggro and when I do, it gets fixed.
If you have aggro problems, they can easily be fixed by talking to your team. Telling them to slow down on their attacks and such.

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Originally Posted by LithiumFlower

Great read. I appreciate this type of post.

I need to play a tank at some point in time (I'm always a healer) so I can better understand why certain issues pop up. Specifically I want to know when it's something the tank can correct or when it's just the nature of the dungeon. Right now I don't have the needed understanding of tank abilities. Issues I've personally run into are (1) some tanks taking far more damage than other tanks, sometimes even losing most of their health in 1 or 2 big hits (anecdotal, but GLA's seem to lose health easier than MRD's); and (2) tanks that lose aggro easily after only a couple casts of Cure 1.

The only things that I've had tanks do that made me unhappy were (1) not paying enough attention to notice I have aggro and am taking damage rapidly (in the higher dungeons I've played I can be nearly 3-shot by trash even with the correct level of gear); (2) constantly going AFK; and (3) complaining when I don't use my attack abilities in addition to my healing. This last one comes because I use Regen a lot and if the group is doing well enough I rarely need to cast. What people don't seem to realize is that things can go downhill rapidly and mana management is the name of the game for me. Plus my attention is already divided between health bars, my positioning so I avoid enemy attacks, and the dungeon itself. During hectic battles I already have a hard enough time even knowing what the dungeon looks like or how battles go. =/

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The reasons why some tanks take more damage at times is either they're undergeared, not using the right buff rotations, and/or not dodging AoE attacks while tanking/stunning moves.
That and sometimes the healer isn't healing enough.

Good read. Us tanks get it, the healers to some extent, but DPS never seem to get it and need to roll a tank character to fully understand.

I am so sick of "you really can't hold hate" comments when so far all you have done on a pull is a shield lob on the main target, a flash and a voke and someone decides they can use a threat move on the mobs that have one flash on them so far and whine when the hate is gone.

Also, marking, it is so frustrating. I don't have time to select a specific number on a pop-up menu, or the room on my cross hot bar to have a button for 1, 2, 3, 4. So why is it so hard for people to adapt to just using 1 mark (the number 1) and cycling it through to the next target of my choice?