Why is SMN DPS so high?

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD6PuXBPUJg. I also feel SMN doing too much dmg at moment. no melee class can compare with them. Monk 300-500 best gear most likely, SMN 500 to 1000. skill refresh time is almost same. That's unbalanced.

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There's not even a SMN in the video you linked.

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Originally Posted by GuyWithFace

There's not even a SMN in the video you linked.

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you are right, that's black mage who doing too much dmg.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

you are right, that's black mage who doing too much dmg.

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The thing about BLM, though, is they that don't have autoattacks or a lot of DoTs ticking while they're doing damage so their casts have to be massive damage to compensate. They're definitely good DPS, but just because their numbers are large(sometimes huge) doesn't mean they do "too much" damage.

All of you think summon is ok dps Show me prove it, make a video lets see the dps. Or just take 2 summoners too the demon wall i wanna see you beat it...........

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Originally Posted by GuyWithFace

The thing about BLM, though, is they that don't have autoattacks or a lot of DoTs ticking while they're doing damage so their casts have to be massive damage to compensate. They're definitely good DPS, but just because their numbers are large(sometimes huge) doesn't mean they do "too much" damage.

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I don't buy this. Do you see his dmg over 1300 on one hit. almost everytime over 500, can any class close to it? how much your weapon auto attack do ? 100 ? how much your Dots ticking doing? 50, 100? Dots also count 3 sec for only totally 500dmg. for burst dmg (like 5-10 sec totally dmg), no class can compare with Black mage, that's why they are so popular for Hard Mode.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

I don't buy this. Do you see his dmg over 1300 on one hit. almost everytime over 500, can any class close to it? how much your weapon auto attack do ? 100 ? how much your Dots ticking doing? 50, 100? Dots also count 3 sec for only totally 500dmg. for burst dmg (like 5-10 sec totally dmg), no class can compare with Black mage, that's why they are so popular for Hard Mode.

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I'm a summoner, I have an instant attack that crits for 1.2k, while my dots are rolling that hits 400 damage every few seconds (much more when it crits), my pet also hits hard, and has a spell that crits 1k.

don't be fooled with the nukes of your video, just because you see big numbers on the screen, doesn't mean that's OP DPS.

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Originally Posted by glim

I'm a summoner, I have an instant attack that crits for 1.2k, while my dots are rolling that hits 400 damage every few seconds (much more when it crits), my pet also hits hard, and has a spell that crits 1k.

don't be fooled with the nukes of your video, just because you see big numbers on the screen, doesn't mean that's OP DPS.

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you're also WAYYYY more geared than the BLM in the video. When he gets his relic+1 his damage will probably will outdo Summoner. :/

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

you're also WAYYYY more geared than the BLM in the video. When he gets his relic+1 his damage will probably will outdo Summoner. :/

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I doubt that, a good summoner that keeps 100% dot uptime is just insane.

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

you're also WAYYYY more geared than the BLM in the video. When he gets his relic+1 his damage will probably will outdo Summoner. :/

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but he DOES HAVE relic +1., he has a stream that says "relic +1 blm", and if you check the video you would notice the relic weapon at 1080p, and at the end of the video he even said "ten times easier with fcken relics"

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Originally Posted by Raistlin1982

All of you think summon is ok dps Show me prove it, make a video lets see the dps. Or just take 2 summoners too the demon wall i wanna see you beat it...........

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What are you talking about? Are you suggesting SMN aren't viable for AK?

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Originally Posted by Malix

I'm aware of how the boss works but still not feasible unless of course you can of couse show proof to back up your claim.

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Apparently not if you think he summons adds at 50%. He only summons adds after the 2nd Repel, you only need to kill him before that. I did that today on my SMN (no relic (using Ifrit book) and still missing body/leg DL) with a WAR, SCH, and BLM. And no, we didn't LB. Find a competent group of people to run with before shouting off crazy impossibilities. We're clearing AK in 10-12 minutes.

ProTip: SCH should be DPS'ing with Cleric's Stance and letting his/her Faerie heal, as Faeries are not affected by Cleric Stance.

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Originally Posted by glim

but he DOES HAVE relic +1., he has a stream that says "relic +1 blm", and if you check the video you would notice the relic weapon at 1080p, and at the end of the video he even said "ten times easier with fcken relics"

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Ahh sorry didn't watch the whole thing. :P I also have not watched streams...or done much of anything else in my free time except play this game...D:

Tell me about your SMN dps/rotation in stuff like Garuda, Titan, (and if you've done it, Coil) Summoner was my first 50 and I'm pretty close to getting the relic for it....but I've been so disheartened by all the talk of SMN DPS being super low and not viable for Titan/Coil.

At the moment I start with Shadowflare under the mob, then BioII > Miasma > Bio > Fester > Thunder > MiasmaII > Contagion. (I only use Miasma 2 on a single target if I can contagion it, figures while the potency is low it's still free damage) Then I throw in Ruins while Fester is on cooldown

the problem why people see summoners as a weak class, because when playing them, they don't feel strong, emphasis on the word "feel". their damage sources are everywhere, dots pets and measly ruins, what people fail to do is add all of them together, as to BLM, their damage source comes from them alone, so you wouldn't be surprised seeing big numbers and you really would "feel" like a nuking class, which they are.


example.

player mage: Boom! I just critted 50k damage. I'm leetz!

player necromancer: sigh.. my dots are only hitting 20k.. my normal attack is 15k and my pet even hits as much as I hit, 15k... when am I gonna get 50k attacks!!! ='(

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"At the moment I start with Shadowflare under the mob, then BioII > Miasma > Bio > Fester > Thunder > MiasmaII > Contagion. (I only use Miasma 2 on a single target if I can contagion it, figures while the potency is low it's still free damage) Then I throw in Ruins while Fester is on cooldown"

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you're doing fine, there's only a slight difference of what I do compared to yours.

BIOII>MIASMA>BIO>Fester+Energydrain>Thunder>Contagion>RUIN II (so you can cast your pet buffs)>Fester+aetherflow, >Ruin II again(to cast swiftcast)>Shadowflare.

I only hardcast shadowflare before the fight if the tanks make a countdown, I cast it at the "321". I'm still getting used to miasma II + contagion, so I haven't added it in my starting rotation. and mind you I only use energy drain just once and only at the start of the fight because of too much aetherflows at the beggining that you have to burn it so that you can get your aetherflow cd running.

I also don't always cast shadowflare, I only do if I know that the boss will stay at place for at least 12-15 seconds. titan is a good example, demon wall. etc.

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Originally Posted by glim

I also don't always cast shadowflare, I only do if I know that the boss will stay at place for at least 12-15 seconds. titan is a good example, demon wall. etc.

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yea, for Garuda I only use it in the start and when the Eye of the Storm phase happens. For Demon wall does it still damage him when he moves forward since he's so fat? wondering if I need to recast it every time he moves or if I can just leave it.

Yea I only use energy drain after ressing people because my MP takes such a large hit, or if I've been doing Ruin+RuinII combos as filler inbetween Festers. ATM my gear is SLIGHTLY outdated...(AF chest and head). I didn't want the Darklight Cowl because it didn't give crit and I am prioritizing that as my second stat, will be getting Summoner's Coat soon and HOPEFULLY Vanya's hat with crit materia. What do you do for Garuda Plumes or Titan tombs? just general stuff that needs to be bursted down ASAP.

I don't understand why people are already naming top dps when there is no official clean cut parser out there. Until there are addons in game that show proper dps count and everyone is also geared at the same level, there is no absolute definition of who the top dps class is. People are jumping to conclusions too quick without no dead on information =/

@nemhy

^good choice, I'm getting my AF+1 chest next week and I'll try to get a crafted high quaity helm piece (vanya wizard hat or something). I got the dark light because I was ignorant about the stats a few days ago, and that it looks cool (lol).

garuda plumes are terrific for us, already have shadowflare casted before she teleports to AoE everyone, bane spread and miasma does the trick once plumes have spawned. for garuda's plumes (the spread out plumes), I cast a full dot on one and hope that that specific plume will go next to another. once the plumes are grouped up, I look for the place where there's a lot of them and I swiftcast shadowflare and miasma.

for titan tombs, smns aren't that strong for tombs, but our group had good dps that they did not even need me to help, I just try to help with ruins and if we need to get the tomb asap, I let in an energy drain in there.

for things that needs to be bursted down asap, we just do what we can, if your group has mediocre dps, you can choose to do a full rotation of dots so you can get in a fester in it, or if the group has high dps and the ads only last 5-6 seconds, then just get in a ruin or two in there.

I'm not saying all of this stuff is the best possible way to handle situations, I'm just telling you what I personally do.

Summoner doesn't "feel" strong likely because we're used to our retard duty finder tanks. There are a lot of things the tank (and to a lesser extent the rest of the group) needs to do to let a Summoner maximally do what it can do:

First and foremost when there are adds, we need to either spread existing DoT's to them, or if we do have to hard cast them over again, spread the newly casted DoT's back to the main target. It is a tremendous mana dump and DPS loss to have to sit there and just DoT things one at a time w/o Bane.

Threat. O M G Threat. On the off-chance you do manage to find a tank that will position mobs favorably for the first issue, (so like maybe 3/10), you then need to find one that has a clue how to hold them. So far 0 duty finder tanks have achieved both stipulations even after asking them to do so. Usually just met with "single target" responses that you'd expect from someone that's got no idea. Thankfully Demon Wall itself doesn't appear to do a tremendous amount of tank damage as I ALWAYS have threat on it while the two Eyes are up (Many fail groups, so typically I drag the one eye I'm tanking over to the tank who has at the time the 2nd eye and the wall, spread AIDS I put up on the first eye when he's both centrally positioned and the second eye is close enough, contagion the boss, and ruin down the 2nd eye with a fester depending on aether charges/CD of aetherflow while keeping shadowflare going)

Some of the blame falls on the Summoners as well. We have to manage the pet (Pet abilities, healing the pet with sustain, and telling the dumb ass where to move to not die to stupid), 4 DoTs (5 including Miasma II when using Contagion/have more than 2 mobs around), a ground targetted AoE, Aetherflow charges (mainly staying awake enough to know when to burn/save them), Archer CD's, and pet buffing actions (rouse/spur/enkindle). This is well over 20 buttons including macros that we're actively using. Movement to escape ground target AoE's needs to be done instantly so there is no way to even hope to click any of these and still do well. This is by no means an easy class to play well.

A parser does not need to be office to be accurate.

Darklight body may suck as far as secondary stats go, but Vitality is damn useful in endgame.

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Originally Posted by glim

@nemhy
garuda plumes are terrific for us, already have shadowflare casted before she teleports to AoE everyone, bane spread and miasma does the trick once plumes have spawned. for garuda's plumes (the spread out plumes), I cast a full dot on one and hope that that specific plume will go next to another. once the plumes are grouped up, I look for the place where there's a lot of them and I swiftcast shadowflare and miasma.

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My main issue is that I can't seem to time it so my DoTs are in high duration before she jumps to one of her Attacks so while I may be able to Bane...they run out really soon. Is there a trick to this or do I just need to feel it out? Also I feel like bane doesn't reach all of them...even while they're still on her before she throws them out.

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

My main issue is that I can't seem to time it so my DoTs are in high duration before she jumps to one of her Attacks so while I may be able to Bane...they run out really soon. Is there a trick to this or do I just need to feel it out? Also I feel like bane doesn't reach all of them...even while they're still on her before she throws them out.

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yeah I had this problem as well, especially if she attacks you with her windblade while casting bio II on her. here's what I do, once she finishes casting her aoe, I cast surecast and get out to be line in sight with her to do my full dots, then once plumes are out I wait for like .5-1 second before casting bane, so that she finishes summoning all her plumes and all of them will get hit by bane.

I don't trust parsers yet because I haven't seen a single person claim that a parser has gotten DoT parsing correct yet. It's inconsistent, it's buggy, it's not accurate because as far as I understand it, DoT damage does not show up in the log. However, I can attest to the fact that summoner can, at the very least, keep up with other classes.

More often than not, the following scenario occurs...

Encounter begins. After a few seconds, all DPS solidify their 'number' on the aggro meter. Healers are usually somewhere in between the best and the worst dps. Over time, summoners slowly climb to the top. Consistently. I usually end an encounter at number two if there is just a main tank on the boss or number three if both tanks are competing for hate. My gear is not amazing (darklight, hero's jewelry, Ifrit weapon), so I do not really think summoner has 'better' dps than other classes... However, we certainly do have our 'role' in parties.

I think we are about even... but here is where we are different: while other classes need to stop DPS on one thing to start on another, we can have DoTs rolling on the main boss while turning around, spreading DoTs, and nuking down adds. Summoner really shines when you need to keep consistent damage on the boss while at the same time killing adds that keep spawning. If you know when adds will spawn, you can make sure to refresh your DoTs right before they spawn and you need to switch targets. If you are commanding Garuda, you can tell her to use the DoT extension ability right after you cast these... giving you a good 20+ seconds of consistent damage on the boss while you are killing adds.

It is common knowledge that our burst DPS is not very good, but if you know a fight REALLY well, you can time when it would be a good idea to spread your DoTs. (Example: make sure to refresh your DoTs right after Garuda finishes a jump so that you can Bane immediately when the plumes spawn. If you time it right, you can spread all three SMN DoTs to the plumes before they 'spread out'. This will make it easier for all DPS to kill the adds since DoTs are ticking while you attack one at a time.)

Tldr; SMN is good if you know how to play it. Not better or worse, but we certainly have our place in endgame.

@Ryuko, it's right not to trust the parses at this stage just yet that's true, but I did try to compare the dps showing on the parses and doing my dps on a training dummy. here is what I did, I did a full rotation for 2 minutes on a target dummy while my brother jots down all the dots he sees and add them all up, and get all the numbers in the combat log and add them all up as well, we summed it and divideded it by 120 seconds, the results are very consistent with the parses, give or take a few dps.

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Originally Posted by glim

@Ryuko, it's right not to trust the parses at this stage just yet that's true, but I did try to compare the dps showing on the parses and doing my dps on a training dummy. here is what I did, I did a full rotation for 2 minutes on a target dummy while my brother jots down all the dots he sees and add them all up, and get all the numbers in the combat log and add them all up as well, we summed it and divideded it by 120 seconds, the results are very consistent with the parses, give or take a few dps.

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While I commend you for your research, dummy dps isn't going to be accurate... when are we ever going to have two minutes to just stand there and deal out all the DPS we possibly can? Even in fights were we have one target and don't have to move TOO much (Ifrit hard for example), we still have to move a little bit... and sometimes you have to waste mana on other things, like resing someone or helping out by healing yourself after an AoE. Without a bard feeding you mp, you'll eventually have to slow down on your Fester spam and switch to Energy drain as needed. That will lower your dps. If you're going to spend the time to figure out what our 'maximum' damage output is, you should also do the same research with every other possible DPS when they are able to 'stand still' and attack a dummy. As I said, SMN really shines because our damage keeps going as we have to move... so in the end, in a realistic situation, our damage output 'could' potentially be higher... but I doubt it will be on a dummy alone.

@ryuko

I'm not addressing the fact that real situation dps can be lower because of movement, since it's plainly obvious, I'm addressing that even though the DPS parses is not accurate, it is somewhat consistent with the numbers in game. I don't even know where you caught the idea that I was somehow saying that dummy dps = real time dps when I never even let out a number.

also, we still can have our dps uptime to 100% that comparable to a stand still dummy because of ruin II and swiftcast. though this is not the point I'm addressing.

edit: we're amazing in movement fights not just because of dots but on dots AND our ability to still cast filler spells on the move.

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Originally Posted by glim

also, we still can have our dps uptime to 100% that comparable to a stand still dummy because of ruin II and swiftcast. though this is not the point I'm addressing.

edit: we're amazing in movement fights not just because of dots but on dots AND our ability to still cast filler spells on the move.

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True, I love that we can throw Ruin II on the move, even if the MP cost is significantly higher than Ruin I.

Anyway, the reason I mentioned it is because if we are going to look at a summoner's overall DPS, we should also look at other classes and see how they compare versus dummies on strict numbers alone -- not when they have to move, use utility abilities, etc. I'm just curious to see how everyone compared across the board.