Almost no class completely changes going from a "class" to a job, a conj is a WHM at level1, a pug is a MONK at level1, and a arcanist is a SMN at level1. The jobs all play exactly like the class that came before it, with maybe 5 new skills that don't completely change your playstyle or role. Scholar is the only job in the game that uses the job system correctly and is actually fun/interesting and unique.
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09-06-2013, 04:49 AMShiyo
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09-06-2013, 09:32 AMKingBerry
I completely agree Final Fantasy XIV ARR summoner is an abomination it makes no sense at all. Why the hell does summoner have all DoT? and barely anything for his eggi? Why are the eggi have such underwhelming appearance and a no Final Fantasy feel to them? Why are his eggi so weak? Summoner power should be coming from his avatars not himself just like in XI if ur avatar dies you are screwed.
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09-06-2013, 10:21 AMCrevoxYeah, and summoner should be following the same thing. Summoner is a completely different concept in Final Fantasy than "Arcanist", and they're trying to force it upon it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyo
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09-06-2013, 10:22 AMKeveeIt's not a completely different concept in Final Fanatsy XIV A Realm Reborn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
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09-06-2013, 01:30 PMCrevoxIt is. Summoner in FFXIV is not like the Summoner of any other final fantasy game. It doesn't follow a similar gameplay style at all... it barely even focuses on pets at all. The quests were good, but we're basically just noob summoners that can only summon egi. That WOULD be okay, if it weren't for the fact that they are really weak and gameplay involving them is minimal. Summoner is just Arcanist with a new pet buff, slightly stronger pets (SAME SKILLS), and a 5 minute cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
It's really depressing. We're just playing Arcanist at level 50, we're not playing "Summoner." They shouldn't have called it Summoner if they had no intention of making it like a Summoner. It's the worst attempt at trying to make it seem like a Final Fantasy job compared to all of the others.
Though, Bard is pretty far off too, but at least they still have some potent songs and it intertwines with their gameplay to an extent. Our pet is just "press contagion, okay now you auto attack until I need it again." That, alongside with only one viable/useful pet, makes this pretty depressing.
The main issue is that the PET IS A SUPPORTING ROLE. I am a SUMMONER, the pet should be my strength, not a sidekick. The pet should be everything that I am, the creature that I am so skilled to summon. Siiighhh.... I was really hoping Yoshida and team wouldn't screw up Summoner, but they ended up doing so. -
09-06-2013, 01:39 PMshinros
Heh when I saw the garuda egi I was heartbroken it looks nothing like her in my opinion.
Yup on the monk point and once I hit 40 I no longer used titan since carbuncle is more useful. The pet ai made me rage when he kept using shining emerald without me putting all the dots on the target obey needs to be a toggle. >_> Then I also remembered you can't cast and order your pet at the same time so then I simply dropped the summoner and decided to just level my black mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
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09-06-2013, 01:44 PMKeveeAnd how is a Puglist playing as compared to Monk? Or Lancer to Dragoon(btw, Jump isn't used in DPS rotation due to the delay unless you power surge it first)? They're no different than ACN->SMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
The pet isn't the focal point, oh well. As I said, that isn't the point of ARR's Summoner.
Only one viable/useful pet? Yeah, maybe in a strict DPS setting while in a light/full party. Are all abilities useful everywhere for all classes? No?
Ok then. -
09-06-2013, 01:50 PMCrevoxNo. There's only one useful one period. Ifrit's only saving grace is his ability to stun, which is not worth it at all compared to Garuda. Titan is useless because he can't hold aggro off you, and no solo content REQUIRES him; Garuda is always the better choice. Anything stronger than that just eats him up, IF he holds aggro.Quote:
Only one viable/useful pet? Yeah, maybe in a strict DPS setting while in a light/full party. Are all abilities useful everywhere for all classes? No?
The point is Monk plays like a final fantasy Monk. It does exactly what it should.Quote:
And how is a Puglist playing as compared to Monk?
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09-06-2013, 01:54 PMKeveeNo, there's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
As you said, Ifrit has the stun which is situationally useful.
Titan isn't useless because it easily allows you to kill 2-3, and even 4 mobs at once.
Also, if no solo content requires him then how did you do the level 50 Summoner story quest? Because it wasn't anything else with how hard Belial hit.
Garuda is useful for DPS, that is what it brings. It's not always the time for DPS.
My point is that Summoner plays like a Final Fantasy XIV ARR Summoner, and you just can't seem to accept that. The pet can never be the centerpiece if you're just using an essence of what you would like to be summoning. -
09-06-2013, 02:01 PMCrevoxNo, it's not. Ever. Anything that needs to be stunned in party content to interrupt requires more proper timing than Ifrit can ever give, unless you keep him next to the boss on passive. Even then, most execute too fast for him, and it's just too wonky to rely on, especially for a measly 2 second stun. Solo, nothing needs to be stunned. Ever.Quote:
Ifrit has the stun which is situationally useful.
You can do the same with Garuda.Quote:
Titan isn't useless because it easily allows you to kill 2-3, and even 4 mobs at once.
A quest designed to require him does not make him useful.Quote:
Also, if no solo content requires him then how did you do the level 50 Summoner story quest? Because it wasn't anything else with how hard Belial hit.
Except it doesn't, even still. Summoner has no playstyle in FFXIV. When you play Summoner, you are playing an Arcanist. None of the abilities of Summoner change up your rotation or your ability usage AT ALL. You get 2 cooldowns and an upgraded version of an existing ability (Energy Drain -> Fester) and that's it. There is no "summoner" gameplay in this game. For others, like Pugilist -> Monk, it makes sense because how Pugilist plays similarly to how a Monk would play, and the Monk compliments the Pugilist with Monk skills. This is not the case with Summoner at all, because you keep learning Arcanist skills (Fester, Tri-disaster). The only "summoner" skills are cooldowns and a useless pet.Quote:
My point is that Summoner plays like a Final Fantasy XIV ARR Summoner
You could think of it this way. It makes sense that Monk is the advanced job of Pugilist because Monk punches things. It makes sense that Dragoon is the advanced job of Lancer because Dragoon uses a lance to fight. It makes sense that Summoner is the advanced class of Arcanist because Summoners go around using Bio and various diseases... wait, what? -
09-06-2013, 02:29 PMShiboo
I was soooo sad to see it was turned into a cheap warlock>< summoner is the reason i picked this game up. they could have done sooo much better and the job/class deserves better too imo
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09-06-2013, 02:34 PMKingBerryYes all classes are more useful everywhere then the summoner I will take a blm/mnk/drg/Brd over smn any day and any time end of story. When my FC see a smn join for dungeon run we will tell that smn to leave and if he doesn't we leave. You trying to defend ARR SMN is a joke it a complete abomination to Final Fantasy and MMO iteself and im disgusted that you even want to come in here and say SMN is fine and should stay as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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09-06-2013, 02:42 PMCrevox
Like I said before; the only reason you play a Summoner over Arcanist is because Summoner learns Fester, a nuke that has absolutely nothing to do with summons and everything to do with Arcanist. If Summoner did not have Fester, Arcanist would be the better choice and Summoner would be a downgrade.
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09-06-2013, 02:51 PMpopotaro^This. And it's kinda disappointingQuote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
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09-06-2013, 04:08 PMCHunterX
I agree with nearly everything in the thread, but Titan being useless? Far from it. I've nearly single-handedly tanked the "Go, Go, Gorgimera" with Titan (down to 20% before Titan just got too much hate from adds and no one ever cures the tanks, much less Titan). People seriously don't give Titan enough credit; sure it takes him a bit to generate hate, but that's why he works so well with the DoT-focused SMN, as we slowly build our hate as well.
ACN/SMN really feel like they were originally a Necromancer-type class; its "disease" and "toxic" move names like Miasma, Virus, Bane, and Fester suggest as much. Somewhere along the line they must have just thought "**** it, just make it a Summoner so they'll stop asking." The class is pretty fun (I really just want a good pet class), but it doesn't feel at all like a Summoner. I'm reminded more of Necromancer from Guildwars. And Ifrit is garbage. -
09-06-2013, 04:26 PMabesut
I don't think I have to mention any names, but gotta love THE one person in this thread who keeps defending SMN in its current form, even though the job plays nothing like a SMN, more like a poor mans warlock/necromancer.
Its even harder to take such posts serious since NO CLASS/JOB is perfect right off the bat. Defending a not only new but also broken class/job just makes you appear blinded.
Hope they change Summoner. I want Summoner, not a warlock/necromancer with a the summoner named attached to it -
09-06-2013, 04:58 PMCrevoxThat's pretty much the only use anyone has for him and topaz carbuncle: tanking fates.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHunterX
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09-06-2013, 06:08 PMKushinoYou sound like a really nice group of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBerry
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09-06-2013, 06:14 PMgigi_frana
ever had a SUM at the Demon Wall?
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09-06-2013, 07:04 PMKoujiGeki
Is it to late to say i told you so to the people who said we couldn't judge the pets till the game was out.
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09-06-2013, 07:18 PMTensu
I would agree, I just hit 40 today and honestly 90% of the time while in fate groups I do not even have my summon out as it feels like more of a hassle having to re-summon it every time it run off to despawn itself hitting some mob I run by.
and they just do not seem to do enough for me to warrant the 6 seconds I would have to spend every time i dismount to re-summon him since most the time whatever I am trying to kill would just be dead from my dots in that time anyways. -
09-06-2013, 07:32 PMArcanaLvl up thm to 26 and pugilits to 10, dont be lazy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tensu
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09-06-2013, 07:47 PMTensuI do not see how having swift cast would change the fact that I can kill a mob just as quick with the dots, So what every 180 seconds I can insta cast my summon to watch it run off and desummon itself when I walk next to a agrroing mob?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcana
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09-06-2013, 10:35 PMSamuraikingThis is off topic, but it's a 60 second cooldown, not 180. You can easily resummon it every time it runs off. I know, it's a bad design and I hate it, but that is no excuse for you being lazy and missing skills for your class. A SMN can save the day in a dungeon by fast cast rezing someone who dies. Instant resummon will allow you to not lose much dps (you will lose a lot more if you don't resummon, or you do it slowly w/o Fast cast). I would say if you don't do PvE content with other people, then it doesn't matter, but YOU have to in order to complete the story, so you are purposefully gimping yourself in dungeons because you don't care. Don't be a dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tensu
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09-07-2013, 02:57 AMTensu
That is nice but sort of missing my point, At no point did I say swiftcast was a useless spell I simply said how would insta casting the egi change the fact that a mob dies what 2 seconds faster if you have it out as opposed to just dotting it. My point when I said it was that for being a summoner who is supposed to you know revolve around your summons they just feel lack luster most the time.
Back to the point of swift cast however using it to fix the issue addressed is not really a solution but simply a band-aid to put over something that is clearly wonked, Why does the pet change stances just because I get on the mount and chase around mobs, Why can I not still command the pet while on the mount. Sure attacks and stuff could be locked out but the fact I cannot tell the pet to stop chasing crap is the point I was more so getting at with that. -
09-07-2013, 07:11 AMCrevox
One of the most annoying things is you can't command a pet while casting a spell...
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09-07-2013, 07:37 AMWhitemage82
What I don't understand is why the players think they are the ones dictating the game and what content it has. You don't make the lore, you don't decided on job abilities, you don't make the game. You play it.
They decide what a summoner is; if you don't like it you can give feedback, but they are in charge of the design. If you don't like the job they created you play something else you like better. They are perfectly in their right to change what jobs do.
Just wait. MAR is going to have Dark Knight using an axe and tanking with blood and drain effects and people are going to go bat !@#$ crazy, lol. -
09-07-2013, 07:39 AMCrevoxNo, we don't dictate it, but we still don't like it. Even if you ignore the entire fact that we're complaining about SMN not matching previous concepts in FF and not living up to our expectations, there's still a large amount of other valid complaints. The SMN job in general is a weak "upgrade" due to the fact the only reason it's worth equipping is Fester. Read the main post before commenting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitemage82
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09-07-2013, 09:09 AMabesutppl are not dictating it. But imagine this: what if DC turned Superman into aquaman? That's what SE did to SMNQuote:
Originally Posted by Whitemage82
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09-07-2013, 09:39 AMTasOgie
You will never see the FFXI BST in this game, todays gamers wont tolerate that level of diversity. They will demand that everyone have exact same ability as a BST. Remember your dealing with entitled generation now :(. BST is far to powerful an individual for todays audience to tolerate.
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09-07-2013, 02:37 PMApexPredYou are basically telling us that we can give feedback on a FORUM and everyone here knows SE has the final say. After the first FFXIV release im sure SE has learned a few things about customer feedback. We are perfectly aware of our freedoms, we know we can play another class but being a newly released game and all there is going to be negative feedback toward certain classes/jobs which is very much needed for SE to steer them in the right direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitemage82
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09-07-2013, 03:36 PMKingBerryNo just no summoner are the "DADDY" of Final Fantasy that what most of the FF fans have been waiting for and what do we get? a summoner that get 95% of his attack from DoT and nothing from his summons? Summoner is a pet class all his power should come from it and for god sakes they need to fix the eggi they have no Final Fantasy feel to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitemage82
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09-07-2013, 03:55 PMMalix
My problems with summoner? I hate the way Egi look, the distance of Bane and, how long a cast time tri-disaster has. Thats about it.
I understand why they put more of the damage on the caster than the pet because of what problems it would cause for game balance. Make them too weak than smn as a whole sucks(case and point ffxi). Make them too strong than the class becomes overpowered. The real problem is theres no happy medium because they will not be taken unless they are OP. Let me try to explain with an example
Lets say they switch places and made the egi deal more damage than the player. W/e it dies it will cause the smn to lose a lot of dps while its down and this will cause ppl to believe it is an under-performing Job for endgame(that was the big problem with pup in ffxi). If they decided to fix this problem with making the pet take a significantly less amount of damage than it would becomes OP because the pet will do all the work while the master is essentially playing support. There are not a lot of mmos that have the pet do more damage than the master or even close and every one i seen that it was the case, the class itself was considered weak and niche. -
09-07-2013, 04:14 PMCrevoxThis is kind of true too now that I think about it. Summoner is played up a lot in Final Fantasies, and it's kinda lame for it to be so far from the concept and disappointing in this game.Quote:
No just no summoner are the "DADDY" of Final Fantasy that what most of the FF fans have been waiting for and what do we get? a summoner that get 95% of his attack from DoT and nothing from his summons? Summoner is a pet class all his power should come from it and for god sakes they need to fix the eggi they have no Final Fantasy feel to it.
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09-07-2013, 06:24 PMSamuraikingProbably the only person defending SMN that has made sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malix
There are multiple fixes for this though. From the pet only taking reduced dmg when not the main target of the mob attacking it, as to prevent abuse. You could have the pets do weak auto-attack dmg but LARGE bursts every minute or so. Fast Cast making its death a non-issue. Or have all pets aside from Titan/Topaz only come out to do an animation for our personal spells. We cast some fire spell akin to BLMs Fire III and then Ifrit pops up and actually does the spell.
I assure you SE has had most of these ideas, why they didn't ask us first before releasing the class and testing it, I have no idea. We don't want warlock. SMN really should not have DoT spells. We get why they did it, you make sense, it just shouldn't have been named SMN and given iconic SMN pets. It's insulting. -
09-07-2013, 06:32 PMKingBerryTotally agree why they named it summoner is beyond me and everyday I think about it sickens me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuraiking
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09-07-2013, 06:43 PMRyuko
I like Summoner, the class, and how it functions. I think it's a great addition to the game. DoT classes are great.
...But people are right when they say "Summoner" is not a Summoner.
There is no emphasis on the pets (except for soloing, really, and Garuda's time extension on your DoTs is great), and I've given a lot of thought as to why. It's hard to both allow our pets the potential to do a lot of damage while at the same time making it possible for our pets not to get slaughtered by AoEs. It's hard enough to get out of AoEs yourself -- but commanding a pet, assuming you aren't waiting on the GCD, and you need to wait for the latency of the server to 'communicate' your command? It's going to happen. The reduced damage to our pet is to counteract the fact that we can't really move it like we need to move. So, giving it a lot of damage? It would be a huge exploit. And I think SE wants summoner to be more 'active' than just... "Hey, pet, do something."
In FFXI, there were times when you wouldn't do anything. You would literally sit there and wait. In FFXIV: ARR, SE encourages all classes to be doing something at some point. As a SMN, there is not a single point where I rest. I'm always casting or moving. The same is true of every other class. If they gave us 'burst' damage with our pet, would we be just 'standing' there idle waiting for our pet's burst cooldowns? If the pet did more damage but we still had our DoTs... would it play the same? (Of course, it would be adjusted so that we still output a fair amount of damage; our DoT damage would be reduced in response to the pet damage increase.)
The problem is -- I agree that summoner is not a summoner, but I can't really think of a realistic way to 'fix' the class. We all have some pretty good theories but they'll need to be put to the test before an adjustment is made. I agree that this class should have been tested more before it was released. I'm honestly surprised it wasn't. -
09-07-2013, 07:20 PMMalefiYou are all mistaken.
Firstly I would like to say that I agree with the complaint that the SMN does not play as a Final Fantasy Summoner. However, I would also like to point out that the majority of you agreeing with the complaint are then defining the class role wrong again. Allow me to explain.
Summoners ARE NOT pet classes. Plain and simple, they never have been nor should they be.
Sans a few Final Fantasy games, mainly those after Final Fantasy 10 (not the majority of Final Fantasy games) The previous 7 games (1 and 2 did not have summoner) and even the Final Fantasy Tactic games, the summoner acquired the summon by defeating it and then they were able to use a "Summon Spell" to call them forth to use their unique attack... Ifrit = Hell Fire (or variation), Shiva (Diamond Dust) or variation, etc. However, the summons did not STAY in battle.
I believe a more correct version of the classic summoner would be that they focus on summoning to cast powerful spells based on the summon. PART 2 -
09-07-2013, 07:21 PMMalefiPart 2
Summoner begins battle and they Invoke Ifrit, the summoner gains a buff for a duration that gives them the ability to cast powerful nukes and damage spells building up "Aether" if they fill the appropriate level of aether before the buff runs out, Ifrit is summoned to use his signature spell.
Now of course, the summoner base class would need some of its own spells and abilities to 'hold' its own while they wait on the ability to recast the "Summon Spell" or if they have multiple summons they could move to the next in a great chain of Summoning abilities. I would think that although the concept I've just layed out will never be implemented it is more true to summoner lore, and even story lore for FF XIV as they wouldn't be consuming a constant amount of aether to maintain the egi.
All I ask, is that all of you please reconsider your notion that a Final Fantasy Summoner is simply a "pet class" when it is most definitely at its core not. -
09-07-2013, 11:36 PMabesutI see you never played FFXI or FFX? Those had Summoner classes in them and yes they are pet classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefi
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