Why does everything take so long?

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Originally Posted by Black_Rose

yea.if you compare tera and ffxiv let's be fair tho.
tera borrows an engine that has been around for a longer time.
tera also borrows alot of usual game elemts, like instances similar or alike to aion/wow, aswell as a 1:1 copy of the quest system.
what's new is the battle system, well SE has tried the same with FFXIV, but apperantly their idea of a newer battle system wasn't as succesful as TERA's.

as allways, SE tried something new, just like with every FF, but apperantly they didn't get the feedback they were hoping for.
so while SE has to rework on alot, or probably 80% of the current game, bluehole studies has no problems throwing out updates every 2 weeks.
imagine how bluehole studios would go on if noone would enjoy their content/battle system.
they surely wouldn't give u content updates every 2 weeks.

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Yeah because FFXIV was new and Exciting!!!

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

That's bull. All it's been so far is only the database shell, Keep in mind there's multiple servers, so you're going to have to make one for each server, then on top of that the UI, the player interaction with it, and programming each and every single item into the AH, not to mention dealing with how some items stack with 99 or 999 and so on, then there's organizing the items into each category. Then you have to perform the internal QA and stress testing before you could put it out to public. Anyone, and I mean anyone that has even a smallest experience with software development, let alone IT field would know that you just can't make these things in 5 hours, let alone a day, hell let alone a week. Which brings up one thing:So you say it took you 5 hours to setup one server. Great. There's 18 server. 18 * 5, so that's 90 hours of work just the hardware alone. Say you'll copy and paste the database and all the whole nine yard of software development into each of the 18 'AH servers' for FFXIV. Great, then you have to make sure that it is working perfectly fine and operational, and I do mean perfectly fine. If there's one glitch, you have to go back and fix it, and test it again. it's a vicious cycle.Then bare in mind that this is just ONE project of the whole FFXIV project to work on. There's still Airships, there's still chocobo, there's still content, and more quests, and more classes, the list just goes on, and on, and on.And you have to consider this: You already got the Market ward, which is functioning just as well as an Auction House functions, so you have to ask yourself, and the team this: is it even worth doing the auction house, when you already got something that does the same job already in place, only that it needs to be more optimized? I mean sure, the whole thing sucked at one point, but now it actually works and it is actually functional that people can actually use it efficiently. There's still problem with it. IE: it crashes and resets, and we don't want that obviously so there's work in that, so put that against a WHOLE new, nearly redundant feature, which is going to further delay other, higher priority project. Because it's not even possible, and even if it is, it's completely redundant and a waste of time to focus when anyone can agree that SE have more important and pressing matters to work on.* * *Now keep in mind that this is coming from someone who is studying on Information Technology and Computer Science, including programming.

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This is something coming from a guy designing data storehouses for a pharmaceutical company.

It's been three months of planning with no visible results. It takes less than a week for any professional team to acquire a server and database cluster to set up a storehouse. database schema and queries are done in less than three days, and the rest of the time is spent building the interface, web app in my case, for the database.

The dev team has done absolutely nothing beyond "investigation". With a team of three individuals, I have built an app catalog which in addition to adding and deleting entries, supports editing of entries , real time visualization of code commits per app, commenting, etc.

It took us two months to go from talk and planning to having a functional app available in a production system.

You really want me to believe that building a simple transaction system is going to take this long for a AAA development firm?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Why does everything take so long? What's taking up all the dev's time?

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it's amazing how a simple question can turn a thread into this. this is why forums are so fun!

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

This is something coming from a guy designing data storehouses for a pharmaceutical company.

It's been three months of planning with no visible results. It takes less than a week for any professional team to acquire a server and database cluster to set up a storehouse. database schema and queries are done in less than three days, and the rest of the time is spent building the interface, web app in my case, for the database.

The dev team has done absolutely nothing beyond "investigation". With a team of three individuals, I have built an app catalog which in addition to adding and deleting entries, supports editing of entries , real time visualization of code commits per app, commenting, etc.

It took us two months to go from talk and planning to having a functional app available in a production system.

You really want me to believe that building a simple transaction system is going to take this long for a AAA development firm?

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Just a tip, the people here don't take kindly to your kind of talk, they like to bullshit themselves, they actually think that SE has stopped every single team and their janitors to work on the so called "Re-design" of combat etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Just a tip, the people here don't take kindly to your kind of talk, they like to bullshit themselves, they actually think that SE has stopped every single team and their janitors to work on the so called "Re-design" of combat etc etc.

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People also like to believe nothing takes time.

Well, I'm impressed that a college kid, in his spare time, was able to knock out a shell of an AH in 5 hours... I mean, hey, if he can do it in 5 hours... how long is it going to take a professional to do it? Either way, no excuse not to have an AH in the game.

Reviews will be awful if they 're-release' without an AH... again.

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Originally Posted by Warp

Well, I'm impressed that a college kid, in his spare time, was able to knock out a shell of an AH in 5 hours... I mean, hey, if he can do it in 5 hours... how long is it going to take a professional to do it? Either way, no excuse not to have an AH in the game.

Reviews will be awful if they 're-release' without an AH... again.

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As someone pointed out, his project is actually different from what a game would use, this project is basically making another:

www.ffxivpro.com

or

www.ffxiah.com

Nothing that the actual in-game AH would be programmed like.

I can't even remember what this thread was originally about. And we're only on page 5....

Anyway, point is, it was impressive that he did that in 5 hours. Yes, it's not a fully functioning AH but he did THAT in 5 hours. Like I previously said, not even a full day at the office in Japan. (Or majority of the world).
All I'm saying is... it's taking unexpectedly long. That's all. Not just talking about the AH, but everything in general. I know they aren't gods so things can't just happen. But in my opinion, their focus is sort of... in the wrong direction. I mean all this talk about jumping? If that's what SE is going to focus on.... when so much other more important things need work? really...
I guess we have to take into consideration the natural disasters in Japan though. We can't deny it, but that WILL and HAS effected the development, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

This is something coming from a guy designing data storehouses for a pharmaceutical company.

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Oh my goodness, this reply is SO wrong that if you look up the definition of wrong, you'd find your picture there, I mean REALLY! You don't even know who I am and what I do! that's hilarious!

cliche, I know, but I just can't help but say it!

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It's been three months of planning with no visible results. It takes less than a week for any professional team to acquire a server and database cluster to set up a storehouse. database schema and queries are done in less than three days, and the rest of the time is spent building the interface, web app in my case, for the database.

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Again, setting up the database is one thing. it's only a shell. You've only setup the skeleton of the system, hell the frame work. What about the players to server interactivity? what about reliability? what about optimization, ensuring that this thing rarely crashes if not ever. Hell what about the well done UI that fits into the UI theme of the game? internal testing? external testing? stress testing? stability testing? What about having at least one database server per GAME SERVER, there are 18 of them in all. You have to test all 18 of them. Hell I already got into this.

Now keep in mind, that this is just one of the MANY things they have to work on. I already went into the detail of this, I'm not even going to go into this, again.

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The dev team has done absolutely nothing beyond "investigation". With a team of three individuals, I have built an app catalog which in addition to adding and deleting entries, supports editing of entries , real time visualization of code commits per app, commenting, etc.

It took us two months to go from talk and planning to having a functional app available in a production system.

You really want me to believe that building a simple transaction system is going to take this long for a AAA development firm?

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Okay. At first I was thinking that it would be a little redundant to reply to your first post, but now I feel that I should have to, so I will, in order to reply to the above paragraph, at least to the best of my knowledge and estimation of what goes on.

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It's been 6 months since the game was released, and ~3 months since the new developer lead has come in, and the game's development still moving at a snail's pace.

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The game was rushed out, they spent 5 years or so to work on it, with not even a year worth of alpha testing and beta testing. Hell personally I believed that they should've spent more time on beta testing. I don't know how a new team can just immediately go into the game from day one. There's planning, there's meeting, there's taking information from us, the players, and there's development, and inspection of what went wrong and fix it. I'd rather they take their time to fix the game, rather than rush it out, because rushing the game out is what got the game in this mess in the FIRST place.

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Monster redesigns involved increased size, when most complaints were that they had boring designs.

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Keep in mind that a LOT of these monsters will be the first of MANY, so of COURSE they are boring. It's the same for just about every MMORPG. in Perfect World I had to kill waves, after waves of beetles and fish and squirrels and snakes and tiny monsters for the first 25 levels, in FFXI I had to kill rabbits, and beetles, and sheeps, and basic orcs, and goblins, and crabs, and crawlers, and crabs, dragon flies, and crabs, and crabs that actually aggros and birds, and birds and my god more freaking birds to level my jobs up. I mean really, what are you expecting to fight Behemoths or giant wyrms or giant turtles at level 5? It's called starting small and work your way up, really. Again, I'm willing to bet a year worth of my pay that we WILL see level cap increase, and which, in turn, will lead to more epic monsters, and more epic fights, and so on.

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Combat effect redesigns involved, again, increased size of the effects, when most complaints were that the effects were boring and too similar to one another.

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Eh, I wasn't even expecting something epic because it's only the first 50 level. I mean, really, what is the game always going to stay at level 50? What haven't FFXI history or any other MMORPG history taught you anything? I'd wait for the more awesome stuff until after we get maybe level 70 or 80, and then complain if it's lackluster. Although, I will admit that I was pretty pissed when I saw how silly Freeze, Flare, Quake, etc are small and nothing more than what you get when a mage sneeze, which is an insult to these incredibly strong spell names in FF history.

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The devs are still investigating how to implement jump/AH, and their effects. Really? You can come up with a workable database schema for an AH in less than a day, and the queries and services to add or remove entries in less than an hour. Why is this taking so long?

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Okay. Jumps. Okay. I've argued about jumps for as long as I've heard about this game coming out. Jumps in this game changes a LOT. The game, at this point, is not even optimized for any form of jumping, really. So adding jumps means, having to work on, well, every freaking zones in the game, from cities to well, everywhere! So why are they still investigating it? Because it's a WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF WORK for the game, which may not even be necessary!

Auction House, which I already argued this in every freaking post in this thread, and number of times since the alpha/beta release. I've been on both side. I supported Auction house in the beginning because the market ward sucked, and now I'm against it because the market ward is actually functional that it actually works! why are they still investigating it? Because it would be a completely redundant project when Market Wards does the job just as well.

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There have been NO new levequests introduced, and the side quests that were introduced are extremely basic, light on lore, and few in number. Is anyone even writing lore for this game?

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This, I won't argue. I'd like to see more in-depth quest and hell, more levequests just to keep things unique.

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Devs still investigating map collision for getting hung up on ledges?

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I've seen some improvement on this since the game has started but yeah I'd still like to see more work with this.

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Market Ward search is still elementary and not flexible. Seeking items is still extremely difficult to work with.

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Aaaand when's the last time you played this game? Seeking items worked very well for me. Oh, can't find the item? Don't you know what (0) Zero means? I've had no trouble using the system at all. If there's problem with the item availability, that's the problem with the players, not the development. See, the player needs to make it and sell it for it to be for sale. That is how the Market Ward system works.

For me, when I look for an item, I go to the search and look for say, uh, Blackened Scale Mail, it tells me who has it, what room they are in, and how much they are selling it for me, and even goes as far as marking the players that are selling it with a star, and I get my blackened scale mail (if it's available and I can afford it and the price is good) faster than you can say "omfg I got a blackened scale mail!"

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Why does everything take so long? What's taking up all the dev's time?

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Perhaps they have a LOt of projects to work on? like... Battle system? class abilities? Spells? More quests? Airships? Chocobos? Contents? Jumps? even holiday events?! Auction House? Look at the letter from producers. Some of them have some nifty outlines!

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Originally Posted by Elexia

As someone pointed out, his project is actually different from what a game would use, this project is basically making another:

www.ffxivpro.com

or

www.ffxiah.com

Nothing that the actual in-game AH would be programmed like.

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So you're telling me that an MMO AH would be radically different than either of those websites? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the code involved in those websites are far more complex than an MMO AH.

Look, if it's not difficult for a thousand other MMOs to have an AH... then it shouldn't be difficult for a multi-billion dollar company to get one done in a week.

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Originally Posted by Paksenarrion

I can't even remember what this thread was originally about. And we're only on page 5....

Anyway, point is, it was impressive that he did that in 5 hours. Yes, it's not a fully functioning AH but he did THAT in 5 hours. Like I previously said, not even a full day at the office in Japan. (Or majority of the world).
All I'm saying is... it's taking unexpectedly long. That's all. Not just talking about the AH, but everything in general. I know they aren't gods so things can't just happen. But in my opinion, their focus is sort of... in the wrong direction. I mean all this talk about jumping? If that's what SE is going to focus on.... when so much other more important things need work? really...
I guess we have to take into consideration the natural disasters in Japan though. We can't deny it, but that WILL and HAS effected the development, I'm sure.

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You realize why they haven't released one yet?

First of all, they have other things to work on, any delay what-so-ever is frowned upon, especially by all the babies we have on the forums.

Secondly, We have something similar to an AH called the Market Wards. Yes and we do realize that it is not an AH, but holy crap people! Hold your horses!

Its crap like this that is holding them back because they now have to analyze what they should and shouldn't implement. If we all took a break from complaining about the same thing over and over again, maybe they'd have more time to get something done rather than listen to a bunch of bickering.

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Well, I'm impressed that a college kid, in his spare time, was able to knock out a shell of an AH in 5 hours... I mean, hey, if he can do it in 5 hours... how long is it going to take a professional to do it? Either way, no excuse not to have an AH in the game.

Reviews will be awful if they 're-release' without an AH... again.

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Anyway, point is, it was impressive that he did that in 5 hours. Yes, it's not a fully functioning AH but he did THAT in 5 hours. Like I previously said, not even a full day at the office in Japan. (Or majority of the world).

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That's just it. It's a very small part of the whole system. then there's the fact that it has to be repeated for each and every server (there are at least 18, along with any testing servers they may have!). Auction House isn't something that can be made quickly, let alone even necessary, there are tons of other projects to work on that should have more priority than the AH.

The real kicker is that they already have amot everything in place. Market wards is a few tweaks away from being an ah. They have their databases set up, they have the transaction system set up, they have the ui almost done. The only thing they would have to do is remove the extra layer of indirection of retainers.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

You realize why they haven't released one yet?

First of all, they have other things to work on, any delay what-so-ever is frowned upon, especially by all the babies we have on the forums.

Secondly, We have something similar to an AH called the Market Wards. Yes and we do realize that it is not an AH, but holy crap people! Hold your horses!

Its crap like this that is holding them back because they now have to analyze what they should and shouldn't implement. If we all took a break from complaining about the same thing over and over again, maybe they'd have more time to get something done rather than listen to a bunch of bickering.

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Like I said, wasn't just talking about the AH. In fact, that's of low importance to me. Couldn't really care less. I quite like the market wards, and I probably prefer it over the AH anyway. I haven't said anything that I believe can count as complaining. I simply said that it's taking unexpectedly long but that there are other things that factor into the time line. And the example I gave was the natural disasters in Japan.

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Originally Posted by Warp

So you're telling me that an MMO AH would be radically different than either of those websites? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the code involved in those websites are far more complex than an MMO AH.

Look, if it's not difficult for a thousand other MMOs to have an AH... then it shouldn't be difficult for a multi-billion dollar company to get one done in a week.

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No one said it was difficult, it's just not "a day's work", all MMOs I play their AH's are exactly the same, some with more features (like Search: [ enter item name (ID) here...) ]) or lack some features (specific armor categories only being displayed by "Armor" instead of Armor > Dropdown > Head, Body etc.)

Also it would be different because compared to a website, you're incorporating interactivity with a video game, which said websites basically pull certain information at a small delay (with certain features) because it can't 100% read the game's handling of said information with utmost optimization.

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Originally Posted by Warp

So you're telling me that an MMO AH would be radically different than either of those websites? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the code involved in those websites are far more complex than an MMO AH.

Look, if it's not difficult for a thousand other MMOs to have an AH... then it shouldn't be difficult for a multi-billion dollar company to get one done in a week.

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All the websites do is to list the items, and the price of each items, from each server. All FFXIAH.com does is to simply scan the game's Auction house history, and each items, and list it. There can't be any player interaction with it other than just...listing it, and it is stored on the site. The game does much more than that, and requires much more work than that.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

The real kicker is that they already have amot everything in place. Market wards is a few tweaks away from being an ah. They have their databases set up, they have the transaction system set up, they have the ui almost done. The only thing they would have to do is remove the extra layer of indirection of retainers.

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You could do it that way, and thus lead to more unnecessary work, or just...allow players to buy it directly from the search itself (which I believe is in the works to boot!), and thus we still get to keep our Market Wards, and you get your pseudo Auction House. EVERYONE WINS! Charlie sheen would approve this!

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

Charlie sheen would approve this!

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lol. *thumbs up*

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Originally Posted by Elexia

People also like to believe nothing takes time.

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Indeed, for example the people that like to believe that it has not been 1 year since alpha ..... yet nothing to show for it lol

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana

This is one guy doing this in 5 hours, you mean to tell me if the SE devs divided up the work and really REEEALLY wanted to they couldnt give us a functioning AH in a week? I think they could. Blizzard would be able to do it.

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Originally Posted by Paksenarrion

Even though I'm not a fan of Blizzard, I have to say. I agree. This one dude did this much in 5 hours. That's not even a full day at work in Japan.

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You're assuming they want to add an AH. Note how they've said, "they'll consider adding an AH".

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You're assuming they want to add an AH. Note how they've said, "they'll consider adding an AH".

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I don't really care even if they don't add an AH. I am satisfied with the market wards.
I just think there should be other things they focus on, other than the AH. But the fact that he was able to do this, in 5 hours, just shows dedication. I know it's not something that can compare to the programming needed for an AH in FFXIV, but still. If you look at work hours = results I mean.

Again I'm torn on this issue, things take time, it's half a year since release, and what do we have, a few minor quests and such.

I still beleive there is alot coming soon in the way of PVE content but holding back, but people need to see more stuff I think. It takes time to do stuff, but can anyone seriously say that the stuff released so far takes 4 months to do? *I took off 2 since hasn't been much since febuary/early march then add in reset* we get NM's and they are 6 minor ones no one touches, we get new quests, they are done in a afternoon. I'm just believing and hoping that they havn't wated 6 months and we have a ton of stuff coming, just waiting for combat/core changes to allow for them to go in.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Tera if I recall, uses Unreal Engine whereas FFXIV uses an inhouse engine they had to develop before making the actual game itself which they've mentioned was the largest portion of Rapture/XIV's development time.

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While true, XIV was announced in development by 2005, the Engine most likely started development before than, 03, 04? Plus the engine is not just for XIV so its been development by all staff capable of, not just XIVs team. And still lacks features of more dedicated engines. So while TERA got a headstart with prebuilt engines, XIV started development using that engine a lot earlier by a much larger work force.

I think a lot comes down to bad decisions and bad programmers. Yeh they're in a big company blah blah but they're just so bad, everyone saw this in XI and even see it in XIII. They cripple themselves in so many ways and take the wrong approach to things. You see it even now on the forums when people suggest features and their response is "it will take too long" "it cant be done" etc, when its such simple things that every other game developer seems to do fine with. All SE want to do is make the visual story XD

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Originally Posted by Paksenarrion

I don't really care even if they don't add an AH. I am satisfied with the market wards.
I just think there should be other things they focus on, other than the AH. But the fact that he was able to do this, in 5 hours, just shows dedication. I know it's not something that can compare to the programming needed for an AH in FFXIV, but still. If you look at work hours = results I mean.

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He didn't really do anything significant in 5 hours. He created a shell.

But that's besides the point. Why do you assume they aren't doing anything? So just because they aren't updating the game every time they make a change, you assume they are all twiddling their thumbs and laughing at the players while they whack off or something?

I don't know if you've heard but there was this little wave prancing around japan.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

He didn't really do anything significant in 5 hours. He created a shell.

But that's besides the point. Why do you assume they aren't doing anything? So just because they aren't updating the game every time they make a change, you assume they are all twiddling their thumbs and laughing at the players while they whack off or something?

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Yes , its really not much what I have now. But it'll hopefully duispel some myths that this it's hard work. A team of there skilled individuals could hammer out a test version by the end of a day. From forum posts and producer letters, se has nothing. that s really disappointing. It makes you wonder what theyre doing all day.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Yes , its really not much what I have now. But it'll hopefully duispel some myths that this it's hard work. A team of there skilled individuals could hammer out a test version by the end of a day. From forum posts and producer letters, se has nothing. that s really disappointing. It makes you wonder what theyre doing all day.

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And again, you're assuming they're planning on adding one.

You have no idea what they are working on, so you have no idea how long it should take.

I'm sure they're all playing frisbee in the office, telling fart jokes and making copies of their butt-cheeks. They're not working at all, since you seem to think SE is willing to pay all them for doing nothing. >.>

They have told us they are making drastic changes. Those take time. Just because they aren't updating the game for every little change they plan to make doesn't mean they aren't doing anything.

No one said it was hardwork, it's just not this fabled "one day's work", especially given the implementation compared to a website database.

If people were worried about them distracting dev time to do events (which it doesn't), people would (should) be worried about them distracting dev time to making a redundant market system instead of more important changes, like fixing the foundation, laying the ground work and the like so we can start to get content.

everytime we talking about how slow SE programming task is...

Elexia will hop in

like I said, he's one of SE programmer and that's why everything take so long

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

And again, you're assuming they're planning on adding one.

You have no idea what they are working on, so you have no idea how long it should take.

I'm sure they're all playing frisbee in the office, telling fart jokes and making copies of their butt-cheeks. They're not working at all, since you seem to think SE is willing to pay all them for doing nothing. >.>

They have told us they are making drastic changes. Those take time. Just because they aren't updating the game for every little change they plan to make doesn't mean they aren't doing anything.

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SE paid the first team for 5 years while they were sleeping or something because what they gave us was not 5 years of works worth.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

everytime we talking about how slow SE programming task is...

Elexia will hop in

like I said, he's one of SE programmer and that's why everything take so long

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Such a butthurt little kid <3

LOL... a programmer response to a little kid :p

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Such a butthurt little kid <3

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Do adults use the term butthurt? Just wondering.

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana

Do adults use the term butthurt? Just wondering.

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Well we've seen worse

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana

Do adults use the term butthurt? Just wondering.

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Not sure, do people on the internet use their brain?

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Well we've seen worse

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I agree. Its just kinda funny to see person who uses a term like butthurt call someone a child in the same sentence they used the word butthurt.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Not sure, do people on the internet use their brain?

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Its was a legit question I wasnt trying to ruffle your feathers. It kinda makes me crack a smile thinking about any adults I know through work or personal life saying butthurt or pwned or any other internet phrase. If you are an adult and use the term butthurt then more power to you.

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana

Its was a legit question I wasnt trying to ruffle your feathers. It kinda makes me crack a smile thinking about any adults I know through work or personal life saying butthurt or pwned or any other internet phrase. If you are an adult and use the term butthurt then more power to you.

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Oh I know you weren't :P

I agree that things are slow, but instead of getting stuck on the face value of the situation, we should look a little further. The project is being lead by a man with no previous experience with any of the team members. As stated in the recent gamasutra interview, Yoshi-P is still getting to know his team and once he knows what everyone is capable of, stuff will come faster.

In addition, they have to release all content for 4 different regions/languages at once, by themselves. They don't contract out localizations to other companies like Blizzard does, they do it all in-house, this takes more time. Plus, in an even earlier interview, they also said they are taking it easy right now because they are redoing many of the fundamental game mechanics. If they give us an instance right now, or a bunch of NMs, what's the point when they are revamping the combat system? They will have to redesign the content once again to match the new combat system.

Still, all of this considered it is still moving slow, but even on top of all of that you throw the threat of nuclear disaster from a tsunami that destroyed a huge chunk of Northern Japan which while didn't hit Tokyo as hard as it did elsewhere, I am sure FFXIV team members had family members that were directly effected and may have had to take off work to deal with it, or have increased levels of stress/anxiety due to the disaster.

So are things slower than they should be? Yeah, certainly. But all things considered, do you honestly have the right to get pissy about it? I don't think so, give them a break imo.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Not sure, do people on the internet use their brain?

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Not when they don't have to..

..and most of the time they don't have to.