get that fact based logical thinking out of here, hyperbole and other assorted fallacies onlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Orophin
As an amateur league bowler, I have to say that was a pretty terrible analogy comparing bowling to gaming.
Bowling's structure (like most sports) is determined at the professional level. Casual and amateur bowlers bowl 10 frame games because that's how the game was made. If they determine it's better overall at the professional level to only have five frames per game, that's where changes will be made and it will affect everyone else.
There is no professional level of gaming in MMOs. There is content developed that only a small portion of the playerbase will ever accomplish, but the game as a whole has to be designed to attract more than that small selection of people else the game wouldn't make money, and that's the point of making any kind of product.
All I can take from your post is based on what little bit of information is out about the game, you're afraid it's going to be too easy and ONLY cater to people who only have a couple hours a day to play. If the boss fights designed in 1.0 are any indication, there will be challenging content that only a small percentage of the playerbase will be able to accomplish. But there will also be plenty of content that EVERYONE will get to enjoy.
This is a game designed for a large amount of people to play, (massively multiplayer?) not just a select few. Just like bowling. 128 people compete for 4 spots at the pro level tournaments. Those are your hardcores. Amateur league bowlers and people who just come in to have fun are your midcores and casuals.
also hi oro
The Future of Serious Gamers in ARR
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03-22-2013, 10:15 AMRickyget that fact based logical thinking out of here, hyperbole and other assorted fallacies onlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Orophin
also hi oro -
03-22-2013, 10:56 AMKalleraI'll start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
Among the many demands of the casual player audience, we would like to add free play among them. -
03-22-2013, 08:15 PMindira
get rid of low drop rate, randomness, fight restrictions like you must have 4+ players, then things can work for everyone.
if your whole progress has to stop just to find one guy to fill a spot in your party even if not needed thats pointless
i bet money thats not gonna happen people seem to run through content in all the mmo's pertty fast. i hope that does not mean more randomness, even with all the randomness in V1 people were knocking it out in a week or two.Quote:
I also liked what Yoshi-P said in that quote:
So all the hardcore gamers – those who really want to complete the latest content straight away and get the rewards the quickest – those people are the more dedicated players. If they really want to do that they will probably need quit their job just to play XIV.
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03-22-2013, 08:44 PMSolace
I was not happy with the ways things were going in FFXIV..
Leveling got stupid easy and everyone got into this
"If I can't get in in one week it's to hard" state of mind.
They went to crying and complaining, then bam. Yoshi makes it insanely easy to do like everything..
Leveling was an insult..
It was waaayy to easy..
Especially for those of us who started with the game, that grinded our ways to 50..
Then a bunch of nubs hop in and all get 50 in one week. It really was insultingly easy..
No sense of accomplishment for your hard work, kind of kills an MMO imo..
Making it super easy to level = no sense of accomplishment..
Well it does to me anyway..
If I wanted to play games that weren't a challenge. I'd just play scrabble or something..
So I have high hopes for some hardcore content here.. -
03-22-2013, 10:33 PMauritribeThis isn't Kirbys Epic Yarn, there's going to be a challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by TRALYNN
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03-22-2013, 11:59 PMLugoSthalsmydThen you've completely missed his point. We just want a chance to go beyond the limit average gamers stop at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hessarial
It doesn't have to be the old fashioned grinding like in EQ1, that is just one of the many aspects of a MMO like ARR.
We could make it alot more advanced, for example:
1) A advanced PvP ranking system with awards/rewards (for serious pvpers)
2) A advanced crafts ranking system (for the serious crafters)
3) And so on...
We could combine all these and have many different challenges so that casual gamers have alot of content to spend their little time on and the more advanced challenges should appeal to the more serious gamers, who are willing to spend more time on the game. That being said, there will be plenty to do for casual gamers already, but give us serious gamers a chance as well to shine, a chance to go beyond the limit where average gamers stop at. -
03-23-2013, 12:18 AMArkhamNativeI don't disagree with your post in general (I want challenging content, too), but I'm curious where the 70% comes from. Are you saying something like a majority of people are "rush to endgame" players? If so, I can't really agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hessarial
From everything I've seen, most MMO gamers play less than 30 hours/week, and it seems like the "rush to endgamers" would be more like 20% or less.
I like endgame, but I'm in no rush to get there. I would hope a majority of players want challenging content, but that should start once we get past the starter/tutorial levels, with dungeons and missions or whatever. I would hope an MMO would be more challenging than to allow even a "hardcore" player to get to level cap in less than a month or so. But it doesn't really bother me how fast other people get to endgame, especially if they're spending most of their non-work/non-sleep time to do so. -
03-23-2013, 04:33 AMTRALYNNI'm not saying there won't be challenge. I'm kind of a middle of the road gal my self. I loved XI but I don't really want it that hard. I just don't want it to be mind numbingly easy either. My post really was just to point out that your link was not quite what you thought it was. Not in a snarky way though :)Quote:
Originally Posted by auritribe
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03-23-2013, 04:45 AMHessarialQuote:
Originally Posted by LugoSthalsmyd
I agree with you, thats what i was trying to say in so many words. Ive played a lot of mmo's where all it is a grind. Advanced systems for different roles would be a great addition
things like pvp ladder's, LS achievements ect, and for the PvE side, higher tier harder content with better rewards and such.
Hm.. I dont know about crafting, but an advanced system sounds like a good idea if it is implemented right.
What im trying to say i guess is that, dont make things harder by making them take more of a grind, make them harder for more hardcore players by challenging them.
+1 -
03-23-2013, 04:47 AMHessarialQuote:
Originally Posted by ArkhamNative
The "rush to endgame:" i would say would be people that are the content pushers themselves (realm first, world first, ect). I wasnt saying that that comprises 70% of players, i meant to get across that 70(ish) percent from my experience, dont necessarily rush, but the meat of of the game is at level cap for them and their groups/guilds. -
03-23-2013, 06:00 AMTinks
Honestly, its not that I mind the casual/anti-grind/easy mode (whatever other ridiculous term you want to call them) gamers and their requests at all. My issue is that they're invading a Final Fantasy MMO and changing it from what the history of Final Fantasy MMOs have been. I realize that I'm in the minority. I'm of the opinion that the average player shouldn't hit cap before 6 months because of grind/gated content/quest requirements etc. Hell lets take a look at Final Fantasies in general. (Yes I realize there's a drastic difference between offline and online games so don't bother trying to explain this.) The purpose of a Final Fantasy game isn't to reach the end, its the journey along the way. In FFXI, it took me a year to hit cap. Why? Because there was SO much to do along the way, so many people to meet and help and do stuff with that I didn't care one bit if I was at cap yet.
I get it. I'm part of the minority, but just because we're in the minority doesn't mean we can't respectfully disagree with some of the drastic changes that are being made to a series that was not originally meant for those of you that are demanding these changes. The unfortunate part is that apparently, the series is no longer meant for us now. I really hope you enjoy the game being made for you, because I don't want to see the series fail. -
03-24-2013, 11:14 AMJieddo
best damn read I have had on this forum
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03-24-2013, 08:40 PMReynhart"The history of Final Fantasy MMO" ?! You mean the one and only Final Fantasy MMO that existed before FF XIV. How come a single game defines a "history" ?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinks
Right, let's take a look at Final Fantasies...where none required to hit the level cap except XI, and the journey was exploring the world, revealing the plot and meeting characters. Not mindless grinding like "Starting zone solo till level 10, then valkurm 10-20, qufim 20-24, yuthunga 24-28, etc..." FFXI was a terrible journey. If levelling required 6 months of quests, explorations, plot and reveals, a lot more people would be fine with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinks
No, there wasn't. Capping was long because grinding mobs was long. You didn't take a single level meeting people and doing other stuff than grinding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinks
Once more, the series was never centered around leveling up, but exploring. And FFXIV, moving to a quest based leveling, if far closer to this aspect. Basically, the series was never made for you...only FFXI was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinks
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03-25-2013, 11:20 PMMeatdawg
Good Post.
There is other underling issues here too. People that consider themselves hardcore but aren't. Mix that with a generation that loves social media and give every person a voice and the ambiguity of the internet and you have 10 different opinions on how to go about killing X and doing Y.
WoW pretty much killed hardcore in MMO's. Now it is about how much money you can make vs how hard can this content be. Hard games don't bring in the cash like shovelware does. You have to appeal to the masses and that leads to dumbed down content because your new market is anyone that can play a video game.
This is where we are headed, and sadly it looks like this is where ARR is headed too.
I just started playing Monster Hunter and it is quite refreshing to have challenging combat again. 1.0 animation lock actually trained me pretty well for MH :) -
03-25-2013, 11:52 PMTinksFFXI & FFXIV. Thats two games. And no, FFXIV v1 did not fail because it wasn't catering to the casuals, it failed because it was terribly made. FFXIV v2 is an entirely different game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
FFXI was SE's most profitableQuote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Final Fantasy ever made. Obviously, more people liked it than you're willing to give it credit for.
Right...nothing to do but grind? So the subjob quests, Chocobo passes, Kazham keys, main storyline quests, airship passes, limit breaks, NM hunting, BCNMs, KSNMs, Zilart missions, CoP missions, Artifact armor hunting, Avatar fights and the myriad of other things the game offered BEFORE you hit 75 don't count? There were also a TON of side quests. No, they didn't give you a ton of exp or gil, but they were great for story. Just because you choose not to do content and want to rush to cap doesn't mean the content isn't there. I met people on my way to 75 that I still talk to regularly even though we quit FFXI years ago. When we hit 75 we simply had more content open up. Never once did I want to rush to 75 so I could FINALLY do endgame stuff. I agree with you, the purpose is to explore and meet people. Not going to be doing a whole lot of meeting people in the 3 weeks you take to cap out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
The series was never centered around leveling up? What Final Fantasy game have YOU played. Every game (with the exception of perhaps 13) essentially requires level grinding to a point if you want to comfortably access the content because otherwise the mobs are going to wipe the floor with you. I have not played a single FF game where I didn't hit a point that I needed to grind some levels. That's just how Final Fantasies, and most RPGs in general, are made. If you don't realize that, then you're deluding yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Yes, the series is about exploring. I never once said it was about leveling up, but there IS an element of leveling that Final Fantasies have at their core. I said simply that the rush to level cap in today's MMOs is ridiculous. Why even have levels if the majority of your content is going to be post cap from launch. I understand when the game is years old and you want to develop more content for those at cap, but if you're designing a system so that people can get to cap just to experience it then I find that sad. -
03-26-2013, 03:07 AMReynhart
You can't count FFXIV in your "history" since it's basically the game that doesn't "fit" the history.
FFXI was the most most profitable only because we have to pay a monthly fee...and not because people acclaimed it as much at the other ones.
Ok, you're right, FFXI had other things than dumb leveling...dumb farming. And people tends to level up to the top (Limit breaks along the way) then crush those lvl30 NM to equip their lesser jobs. As for the side quests, it could really be immersive if you didn't have to check a guide step by step to know what to do.
Apparently, we didn't play the same FF. You can do every game without running in circles grinding Xp providing you didn't flee too much random encouters. FF VIII and XIII are the best proofs, since in the former, levels don't mean anything, and in the latter, you gather enough Xp to cap every crystarium chapter without backtracking...except after the end of the game.
Maybe you grinded to kill optionnal bosses, like Omega Weapon in severals games, or the Dark Aeons from X, but that's not required to finish the story. (Ok you had to grind a little in FFIV to survive the Moon part). You're aware that you can finish FF IX and XII with a starting level party, right ?
In offline FFs, monsters are obstacles you had to kill to progress, and the reward was that your characters gained Xp. In FFXI, mobs were THE goal.
People rushed to the cap because in FFXI :
1 - Leveling is ultimately boring, so they try to get rid of it quickly
2 - Mandatory content required the level cap (Missions)
So, the good thing to do, in my opinion, is give Xp as a reward for doing something interesting, and put the level cap far higher than the required level to do all the missions. -
03-26-2013, 03:51 AMOrophinI can't like that quote enough. Yeah, I know there was story content and other diversions, but once those were done, what else was there to do but grind monsters and level up jobs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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03-26-2013, 12:48 PMKalleraIts not like you'll have infinite content in 2.0 either. You'll still be killing mobs en masse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orophin