Idea: Allowing Spectators in Dungeons

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Originally Posted by Orophin

This seems neat in theory, it'd just be a question of whether it can feasibly be done or not. Are there any other MMOs on the market that have this feature outside of special events? This could be considered a "next-gen" feature for a MMO if so, which might make it a selling point for some people. I'm not expecting it to be in at launch or anything, but if it doesn't have a high development cost, sometime down the road would be cool.

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There is rarely anything that can't be done unless it is due to hardware. The only difference spectators will have from normal players would have that they can't fight, possibly transparent and possibly have limited chat. They can even categorize it like a buff.

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Originally Posted by Kirito

I actually like this idea... but instead of being invisible why not have the characters as slightly transparent... I would be kind of creepy if you didn't know who was watching...

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Sounds like demon souls / dark souls XD

Wonder if they could bring in people through the content finder in a similar manor, say someone in your group leaves part way through the dungeon.. :P

Edit: just saw that the OP added a similar idea. lol

This may be obvious but spectator mode should be live. I don't think SE will favor saving spectator events. Unless of course it was only saved to the players computer only. Just in case anyone wanted this mode so that they could save a fun dungeon run...

It reminds me that there was a similar thread in JP forum back to Aug. 2012.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/51126

No dev response though.

Google doing a piss poor job of translating, however I sort of can decode it to be similar. The more the merrier :)

This is a nice idea. Just having LS members be able to run the dungeons/instances with the party albeit only as a spectator would greatly help in bringing members up to speed on LS strategies.

This is a cool idea I'd like to see extended to the "PVP Coliseum".

How neat would it be to be in the stands, cheering on your friends?

I could probably do that all day.

On the swap in for leech issue you can't really stop that if a player can join in at anytime regardless if they can see the run or not since a party lead could send the invite to intentionally get them in. But the forced delay say 5 minutes would give enough distance where the outside world can't interfere with a groups run.

I shall give this thread my like of approval.

I think this is a great idea. I ran events with my ls in 1.0 and we often had a situation of people having to sit out. It wasn't so bad with primal battles, but dungeon raids took much longer, especially when we was learning the dungeon and used up the full time limit. It wasn't always fair on the people who had to sit out and people would get bored and do something else, and rightly so. This idea keeps them involved, genius :)

i know this is going to help the over all game and increment the "immersion" to a decent level.

but there are mistakes on the passed games of SE they for sure dont want to make it again like RDM NIN Dynamics Sky

this why i like the Game structure oriented to make full pt sets totaly need to workout the performance of boss like Garuda ifrit mogle, where full pt on Right Set-up is need and no leech is allowed

i mentioned RDM and NIN as a mistake cos: SE passed 10years trying to rebalance this jobs and they still un-finish lol

this why a Icon job as rdm dont come on the launch they need time to see how spells workout and run many simulations
as i see on the Alpha Dugenons are more interactive and they dificulty is fun but at the same time, still keep they "magic"

also i have a idea for SE about balance Instances,

make some Roaming mobs like Sentinels and add variable timers to then to walk run or stan on diference positions this make people workout Tactics undergoing because have same sets of mobs on same place every-time is bored
just add some variables to make it interesting
also add Hard-mode to the instances, and a quest inside on Extreme mode

ty

Roaming mobs might possibly lead to problems though, when fallen party members have to return to the entrance and run back to the party.

That being said, the spectator idea is wonderful! Many good ideas in this thread.

Considering that more time is often spent trying to form groups for instanced dungeons than playing thru them, I don't see the appeal. It sounds neat. But it's an MMO with tons to keep people busy. So people are more likely to craft or exp then watch another group play thru a dungeon that you are unable to participate in.

Spectators wouldn't be able to see party chat either. Without a way to communicate with the group or know what they are saying to each other, it seems kind of silly. You'd watch and have no idea what the plan of attack is.

Oh and another part to add to this idea. Spectators cannot walk through walls or barriers. If the actual team hasn't released a barrier, spectators have to wait till they do to cross it. If all the party members have died and all went to the entrance then all spectators should be prompt to see if they also want to go to the entrance or stay where they are. (since mobs eventually do respawn so it may eventually be a good fight). And finally once the dungeon is finished the spectators have about 10 seconds to leave on there own, run around or chat before they are forced out of the dungeon. (This also prevents spectators from looking at areas before the group went there and give them a heads up.)

I'll add first part as is. 2nd part I'll modify like this because I don't think any free exploration should be allowed to figure out dungeon secrets: Once all party members leave dungeon the remaining spectators will be locked in place, notified they will be removed from instance after X seconds and can leave on their own during this time.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

I'll add first part as is. 2nd part I'll modify like this because I don't think any free exploration should be allowed to figure out dungeon secrets: Once all party members leave dungeon the remaining spectators will be locked in place, notified they will be removed from instance after X seconds and can leave on their own during this time.

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Ok sounds good.

I actually really like the idea of this. I remember many times running dungeons or even primal fights with linkshell mates and having to sit out for long periods of time while members cycle in and out. Yes it's true that we often sat and crafted or did other things, but this would add an interesting alternative. I think it would be great to give the party leader control on who can/cannot spectate, just as if he were inviting into the party itself. Perhaps limit the number of viewers available so it doesn't become too excessive, and maybe make it so that once the instance has already started no more spectators can be added. This would eliminate any annoyance on the party leader during the actual instance. As far as how it would be viewable... I personally picture it like many FPS games do after you die and you're waiting to spawn. See the game the same way the people running it. Allow the spectators to view one of the available party members. So say I'm a CNJ/WHM, I could view from the party healer's standpoint and get that perspective. No free floating camera or ability to move, so no real way to cheat or anything. Give the player the ability to toggle through available party members so if they want to they can change views and get different perspectives. As far as battle log and other UI aspects being visible to spectators... I think some are a given. The Map obviously would help so the spectators can also see the layout while running through dungeons. Battle Log I could argue either way as on or off... Perhaps add options in an individuals menu. What to allow/disallow while being spectated? Map on/off, Battle Log on/off, Action Bar(s) on/off etc?

Anyway... looking forward to seeing how this thread progresses and all the interesting ideas that are being thrown out :D

Now that I think about it, its rare that almost everyone here wants this mode... Hopefully the reps mention this to the devs or that the devs themselves look at this...

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Originally Posted by OdynKorsai

mananana
I personally picture it like many FPS games do after you die and you're waiting to spawn. See the game the same way the people running it. Allow the spectators to view one of the available party members. So say I'm a CNJ/WHM, I could view from the party healer's standpoint and get that perspective. No free floating camera or ability to move, so no real way to cheat or anything. Give the player the ability to toggle through available party members so if they want to they can change views and get different perspectives.

yadayada

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I agree, this method is simple, straightforward, and hard to abuse.

I wanted to have limited free floating camera as well. That's why I proposed that the spectator cannot be more than a certain distance from any party members to prevent cheating. If that's too hard to implement I don't mind this.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

I wanted to have limited free floating camera as well. That's why I proposed that the spectator cannot be more than a certain distance from any party members to prevent cheating. If that's too hard to implement I don't mind this.

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kind of liked the ghost idea too but whatever is easier to implement...

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Originally Posted by OdynKorsai

As far as battle log and other UI aspects being visible to spectators... I think some are a given. The Map obviously would help so the spectators can also see the layout while running through dungeons. Battle Log I could argue either way as on or off... Perhaps add options in an individuals menu. What to allow/disallow while being spectated? Map on/off, Battle Log on/off, Action Bar(s) on/off etc?

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I don't see map as being prevented from viewing it. However, if the map is being filled in as the party explores the spectator should be limited to exactly what the party can view.

Viewing battle log and action bar first needs to be granted permission by the party leader. I'm not sure of the benefit of having fine controls for the individual party members if I'm understanding that correctly. I might need clarification.

If individual party member toggles battle log off while party leader grants it on then will the spectator see monster actions against this person? Will actions of this party member against the monster be hidden? Will this lead to confusion of the spectators for seeing partial logs? Is this to prevent the use of spectators using log parser on individuals that don't want their dps exposed?

I may understand why an individual will want to hide their action bars. It gives away their configuration and how they play the game. E.g. They may be an awesome clicker, however still receive flak from the purists. I would think this should be off by default. Am I understanding this one correctly? I know I can add this.

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Originally Posted by OdynKorsai

I think it would be great to give the party leader control on who can/cannot spectate, just as if he were inviting into the party itself. Perhaps limit the number of viewers available so it doesn't become too excessive, and maybe make it so that once the instance has already started no more spectators can be added.

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I'll add the setting to further limit the viewers, however I think this should only be used when auto accept is turned on. By default party leader can manage each spectator requests individually. If party leader doesn't want more spectator requests the party leader can turn on auto decline or leave it to manage them individually just ignoring the requests.

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Originally Posted by Kirito

kind of liked the ghost idea too but whatever is easier to implement...

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I added this warning under spectator restrictions: If free floating camera is to hard to implement because of possible cheating then alternative is to only allow lock on to party members, engaged monsters, or view from their POV

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

I don't see map as being prevented from viewing it. However, if the map is being filled in as the party explores the spectator should be limited to exactly what the party can view.

Viewing battle log and action bar first needs to be granted permission by the party leader. I'm not sure of the benefit of having fine controls for the individual party members if I'm understanding that correctly. I might need clarification.

If individual party member toggles battle log off while party leader grants it on then will the spectator see monster actions against this person? Will actions of this party member against the monster be hidden? Will this lead to confusion of the spectators for seeing partial logs? Is this to prevent the use of spectators using log parser on individuals that don't want their dps exposed?


I may understand why an individual will want to hide their action bars. It gives away their configuration and how they play the game. E.g. They may be an awesome clicker, however still receive flak from the purists. I would think this should be off by default. Am I understanding this one correctly? I know I can add this.

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Personally... With respect to the chat I think there should be two possible options. One is a toggle for all messages in party chat to be blocked from getting viewed by spectators for privacy in certain situations. The reason why I just say party chat and not all chat is because so far our spectator system is based on the ones viewing the run getting permission by party leader. So if the party wanted all chat blocked then they might as well as not let them come for spectator mode.

The second option is a toggle between allowing party/normal/private chat by the spectators or not. This mainly to prevent to any sort of distraction by the spectators during a big battle. For example, there was this one dungeon in coerthas where where my party's cleric also had a lookout position for when the ghosts of the dungeon were going to come to the center or stay on the side. If a spectator makes a long comment just as the cleric says to go up then it could lead many members of the party to become pretty annoyed.
More precisely the second option prevents the party from seeing the messages by the spectators.

The first option is purely for the spectators viewing the parties conversation and the second is purely for party viewing the spectators conversation...

I think I have the first one already:

"All battle information, player stats and party chat is not sent to spectators by default. Party leader can configure settings to make this information sent to spectators"

I'll add the second one.

Any bets on how much more I can add before someone calls it wall of text?

It would kinda be like watching a b-rated horror film where you want to yell at the people to turn around or not to do the dumb thing that will get them killed

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Originally Posted by Forgo

It would kinda be like watching a b-rated horror film where you want to yell at the people to turn around or not to do the dumb thing that will get them killed

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Thats why I just thought about a toggle to view spectators messages...

Oh oh, you didnt add in the choice to put Password to spectate!

I must admit that the OP's idea is nice, quite original too, but I'd prefer Square-Enix would use its time to work on more exciting things. I wouldn't log in just to watch other people playing.

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Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce

Oh oh, you didnt add in the choice to put Password to spectate!

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Right, it would make sense to allow a password for auto accept. I'll add it.

I hope that now that the announcement has been made Yoshida or the other devs will look at this...

Hehe, ty for bumping it. I didn't want to shamelessly bump my own thread. :D

as if there's so few things to do beside running an instance with LS ^^
if you dont get in now, you will some other time, until then there's plenty of stuff to do.
i suppose it would be fun if you're bored anyways, otherwise just waste of time since you cant participate, or get anything.
But could be nice with a spectator *guide* that knows the instance, and can guide people along, without taking up a slot.
And as a spectator you could pick what char you want to look at. so camera is centered around that player. you pick who you wanna look at with party bar. Or there could be a moogle cameraman, that flies around/above party leader.

I really really like this idea and I hope SE considers it.

As a solution to the idea for spectators swapping in for a d/c'd party member, just make it so that spectators get no loot in that scenario. You'd be helping the team finish the raid, thats it. This would be win for everyone really; as the party you get to finish the dungeon in full, and as the spectator you get something to do when you'd otherwise have had to just sit. If you don't like the idea of no reward for your work, then just continue spectating.

C'mon SE, the NA community never goes 8 pages without throwing poo at each other. This idea is obviously well loved all around. Chop chop to the drawing boards with it after ARR launch!

This is also a nice teaching medium... I'm not sure about you but I had to get taught how to do hamlet by a friend before my linkshell let me be the lead tank... It can also help teach classes how they should play (for a while my tank was really just a dps instead of hate gatherer in parties)

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Originally Posted by Tinks

As a solution to the idea for spectators swapping in for a d/c'd party member, just make it so that spectators get no loot in that scenario. You'd be helping the team finish the raid, thats it.

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Added: alternative is to not allow spectator to get loot if spectator is used as a replacement

My person opinion is SE will allow replacements during the dungeons in 2.0 because having to get 24 people through crystal tower without disconnecting or leaving will be hard. And I'm pretty sure it will be a long dungeon as well, which makes matters worse.

Spectator mode would definitely be nice in teaching others the basic gist of things. This + Third Party Chat program, would be the ultimate learning experience within LS's :3.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

Or there could be a moogle cameraman, that flies around/above party leader.

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This would be cute to see. Moogle camera man might be distracting, or some might think it breaks immersion.

Or the party leader can just have the little ball that moogles have on their heads. As a "seeing orb" or some sort. :p

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

Hehe, ty for bumping it. I didn't want to shamelessly bump my own thread. :D

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This thread should be bumped until it gets a response!! Truly a great idea, and adds a whole nother type of 'content'. There's alot of TV shows that I won't have to stare at when bored at home not actively playing! Queue up spectator mode on the big screen, add popcorn, and ENJOY!!!