Summoner would not work with FFXIV current state.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Crazy idea...

Rather than the traditional FFXI style sommoning,, what if the Summoning magic had incremental effects?

For instance:

SMN begins to summon Shiva. Total casting time = 30 sec

• 0:00: Casting begins and a large spherical field (see: Limsa's opening story) appears. snow begins to fall inside field and ice elemental attacks are enhanced.
• 0:05: A friendly Ice Elemental appears and begins to attack the mob.
• 0:10: Enemies within the field suffer the Frost effect and Paralyze.
• 0:15: A second friendly Ice Elemental appears and begins to attack the mob.
• 0:20: Party members within the field gain Ice Spikes and enBlizzard
• 0:25: A third friendly Ice Elemental appears and begins to attack the mob.
• 0:30: All Party and Mobs within the field are transported to Shiva's realm where Shiva appears and unleashes Diamond Dust. When the sequence is complete, the field and all it's effects end and the game returns to normal.

*Note: The final sequence would only be visible to party members within the field, all others would see the 'bubble' frost over and become opaque

I would make this magic rather fragile so that if the summoner gets hit or moves, the field and its effects immediately end and the spell must be restarted. This would also force tanks to work very hard to keep mobs within the field and yet away from the summoner. Also the summoner's emnity could increase gradually as the spell is being cast, thus making it more difficult to maintain the spell.

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That is a great idea! I'd love to see that!

I actually can see a summoner class quest where you have to visit the beast tribes to gain their knowledge of summoning, and learn from their Paragons.

I just wonder which primal belongs to the Goblins might we see the return of yojimbo :D .

Anyways I think Primals can be added easily, maybe involving a experiment of a organization that has recently found a way to obtain a portion of the primals power by fighting them similar to FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I'm strongly against you ever posting again.

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I am in favor of constructive responses to threads

I am strongly against idiotic responses targeting specific individuals

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am strongly against idiotic responses targeting specific individuals

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So not only are you against all pet jobs but you're against yourself? :3

Interesting.

If Summoner is even added, I'd hope there would be no perpetual cost. By taking away the cost, other things could be done to make it harder on summoners without being too harsh.

With no perpetual cost:
Cons-
1. Make summon 50% of the player's mana pool.
2. Once summoned, the cooldown should be 3 minutes.
3. Additional 3 minutes, making a total of 6 minutes, if avatar dies immediately after.

I know wishful thinking. I would like to keep a summon out all the time.

traditional summons >>>>>>>> new summons

I don't care about the storyline, if Ifrit is in the storyline then just make him unlockable after you finished that quest

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Crazy idea...

Rather than the traditional FFXI style sommoning,, what if the Summoning magic had incremental effects?

For instance:

SMN begins to summon Shiva. Total casting time = 30 sec

• 0:00: Casting begins and a large spherical field (see: Limsa's opening story) appears. snow begins to fall inside field and ice elemental attacks are enhanced.
• 0:05: A friendly Ice Elemental appears and begins to attack the mob.
• 0:10: Enemies within the field suffer the Frost effect and Paralyze.
• 0:15: A second friendly Ice Elemental appears and begins to attack the mob.
• 0:20: Party members within the field gain Ice Spikes and enBlizzard
• 0:25: A third friendly Ice Elemental appears and begins to attack the mob.
• 0:30: All Party and Mobs within the field are transported to Shiva's realm where Shiva appears and unleashes Diamond Dust. When the sequence is complete, the field and all it's effects end and the game returns to normal.

*Note: The final sequence would only be visible to party members within the field, all others would see the 'bubble' frost over and become opaque

I would make this magic rather fragile so that if the summoner gets hit or moves, the field and its effects immediately end and the spell must be restarted. This would also force tanks to work very hard to keep mobs within the field and yet away from the summoner. Also the summoner's emnity could increase gradually as the spell is being cast, thus making it more difficult to maintain the spell.

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This is an amazing idea, and I would definitely level whatever it took to get it. only problem I see is tbhat people are going to want their summon follow them around.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

So not only are you against all pet jobs but you're against yourself? :3

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I am strongly against stupid people who don't properly read posts in which no specific individual was established in context, despite being merely suggested.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am strongly against stupid people who don't properly read posts in which no specific individual was established in context, despite being merely suggested.

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So again you're against yourself?

Lets look at your post.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am in favor of constructive responses to threads

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OK, so am I. But theres something fishy about this... lets look back deeper into your post on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am strongly against pet classes

I am strongly against dumb ideas like the summoner class

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So this tripe is constructive in its response? So you came onto the summoner thread and said you hate pet classes AND summoner is a "dumb" idea but you're adding to the conversation in a productive manner, right?

Purely idiotic, run along now.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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How are posts where you merely state that you are in favor or against something constructive? I have nothing about posting opinions, but if you are in favor of comments that are constructive, try to elaborate a bit in your posts and give reasons why you are in favor or against something. Also when you are against something, if you can, try to give a suggestion as to what could change the thing to make it better, that's call constructive criticisms.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

If Summoner is even added, I'd hope there would be no perpetual cost. By taking away the cost, other things could be done to make it harder on summoners without being too harsh.

With no perpetual cost:
Cons-
1. Make summon 50% of the player's mana pool.
2. Once summoned, the cooldown should be 3 minutes.
3. Additional 3 minutes, making a total of 6 minutes, if avatar dies immediately after.

I know wishful thinking. I would like to keep a summon out all the time.

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Summons have to be out permanently, and summoner has to be the most powerful damage dealing class in the game. It was stupid in FFXI how you would pull out this awesome avatar, to have it hit for like 7 DMG.

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Originally Posted by Aramil

How are posts where you merely state that you are in favor or against something constructive? I have nothing about posting opinions, but if you are in favor of comments that are constructive, try to elaborate a bit in your posts and give reasons why you are in favor or against something. Also when you are against something, if you can, try to give a suggestion as to what could change the thing to make it better, that's call constructive criticisms.

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I am in favor of keeping statements like these simple, readable, and relevant.

I am strongly against outright and unnecessary insults from others.

But since you asked, I have never liked pet classes in any game. They end up filling only one role: Damage Dealer. What makes it worse than other damage dealing classes is they can (usually) solo all the way to endgame, thus having very little party experience. There have been many attempts to make a pet class fit into other roles, but they end up either sucking in that role or eventually "rebalanced" into a damage dealer.

Example:
Can't make the pet as good of a tank as a tank class, otherwise pet class will be better since there's less risk.
Can't make the pet as good of a healer/buffer as a healer/buffer class, otherwise pet class will be better since there's less risk from hate.
Both of these mean the pet dies, but can always just be re-summoned again.

So what do they do instead? They make pets weaker than their masters, reasoning that the abilities split between them make them add up to 1 person, which results in weaker heals, weaker buffs, and weaker defense. Nuff said.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

The mob doesn't "Dissapear", rather its just obscured from view outside the field and it only happens is when the spell hits the 0:30 mark.

It doesn't even need to work that way, rather the sequence could just be something that is visible on the client-side only, but I like the idea of making a solid frosted-over sphere to sell the concept better.

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Im down with the total idea I just want it to fit into however the combat system evolves. So even if Shiva is summoned and has its own battle actions, as long as it fits and doesn't throw off how fights are going its all good. even if the combat area itself freezes over to allow shiva to exist and turn into a mini dynamic area would work in you're design idea. That's my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am in favor of keeping statements like these simple, readable, and relevant.

I am strongly against outright and unnecessary insults from others.

But since you asked, I have never liked pet classes in any game. They end up filling only one role: Damage Dealer. What makes it worse than other damage dealing classes is they can (usually) solo all the way to endgame, thus having very little party experience. There have been many attempts to make a pet class fit into other roles, but they end up either sucking in that role or eventually "rebalanced" into a damage dealer.

Example:
Can't make the pet as good of a tank as a tank class, otherwise pet class will be better since there's less risk.
Can't make the pet as good of a healer/buffer as a healer/buffer class, otherwise pet class will be better since there's less risk from hate.
Both of these mean the pet dies, but can always just be re-summoned again.

So what do they do instead? They make pets weaker than their masters, reasoning that the abilities split between them make them add up to 1 person, which results in weaker heals, weaker buffs, and weaker defense. Nuff said.

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OK I gotta be honest here I hated your posts with zero explanation it was annoying, but that response made it all make sense. You articulate your ideas well!!! please do it more often!!!!

It could work, but summons such as Ifirit, Shiva and Titan would only be obtainable end game, a pact would be made similar to FF11 and the cool down would be pretty big.

Spirits would be the main summoning creatures.

@Galamantyl your way of starting a post with your likes and dislikes was kind of ammusing to begin with now its just annoying.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am in favor of keeping statements like these simple, readable, and relevant.

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Oh, OK, lol. So your brilliant opinion of you're against pet jobs and summoner is relevant and constructive to the topic at hand.

The irony of your posts are so sweet my teeth hurt. :)

ff games have more then those classic summons. They can even use ff10 summons anima, or even vanguard plus you got yojimbo, siran, carbuncle, fat chocobo/chocobo king. the ones from 12 tactics advance. there is a huge list of summonings SE can use. as for lore they could go the ff11 route and make it a once banned magic practice. Or go the ff9 route and make it a ancient practice. Or go the ff8 route and it be part of speciel military training. there are many ways it can fit with the theme.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Summons have to be out permanently, and summoner has to be the most powerful damage dealing class in the game. It was stupid in FFXI how you would pull out this awesome avatar, to have it hit for like 7 DMG.

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I agree, you went through hell to get these avatars. either doing it as a solo lvl 20 smn with just carby. Or doing prime which at first required 6 ppl. plus doing them all again for feni then, killing diablos twice.
Kinda sad all of these ended up weak the mp cost to cast plus the mp to keep them out was stupid. You had to build the avatars tp to really deal good dmg with their abilities.

If they use Bahamut, Anima, Magus Sisters, Yojimbo, Valefor, Siren, Carbuncle, Quetzacolt, Brothers, Odin... I'm OK

but.. I don't know why I don't like any of summons from FF12... they are boring and uniqueness

oh gala my puppetmaster tank puppet tanked in a qufim party cuz our pld was lazy. I put good tank attackments on it and pld barely could take hate from it. And I barely used oils. so a pet class pet can tank. My puppet tanks all the time when I played ffxi.

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Originally Posted by Ranka

Now do not get my wrong, I would love to have a summoner class in this game, but with the current lore behind the game a summoner class would really not fit with the storyline. To add a summoner class, it would kind of have to be a new type, ignoring the main stream FF summons such as Ifrit, Shiva, etc... Maybe a spirit type summoning, where they are not the defined elemental spirits like shiva=ice ifrit=fire, but maybe somewhere lower up the ladder, but still powerful, something new.

As far as battle tactics with summoner as well as pets, I could see a similar system as FFXIII and FFXI dragoon where maybe the pet/summon(if applied to game) would do attacks that coordinate with your own. However, with the stamina system, being able to individual control a spirit as well as your character would prove difficult.

Does anyone else feel like summoner would not fit with the game in its current state? I do think pet classes in general would work just fine, but not so much a summoner class. Feels like they would need to alter the storyline for the summons to be implemented.

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Correct me if Im wrong but I could swear I remember reading something about summons would not being a class ability but would be added to the game somehow, kind of like the majority of FF games.

Wouldn't it be cool to add summons to battle regiments and different regiment chains would summon powerful deities such as ifirit, titan, shiva, etc..

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I was trying to leave a nebulous (lazy) comment ><

Honestly, its a story and stories can change through twist and turns that don't kill cannon. If you wanted to summon a summon that was a visual imagine of the creatures we have grown to know all so well through the years I don't think it would be that hard. It could be something similar in the vein of 11.

It would take a lot of writing, but you could do quest(s) that lead you to the point of being able to summon a piece of whatever summoned you've earned (through aforementioned quest). Like 11 (using 11 for brevity rather than wanting a clone of that system) you could summon an actual shiva, but in storyline wise its just a fraction of her power she has bestowed upon you. They (the summons) give the smallest of their ethereal essence to people deserving of their power to wield as they see fit.

If they're Gods then it makes sense for them (through the idea of summoner in the first place through general FF lore) to have Avatars or disciples of their power running around. A little writing can add a whole bunch of things.

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You never elaborated... you never explained why you said it would work with our current battle system...

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Originally Posted by Speeral

Im down with the total idea I just want it to fit into however the combat system evolves. So even if Shiva is summoned and has its own battle actions, as long as it fits and doesn't throw off how fights are going its all good. even if the combat area itself freezes over to allow shiva to exist and turn into a mini dynamic area would work in you're design idea. That's my two cents.

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Think of it more as an uber-spell rather than a pet job. The last attack part functions like an old-school (pre FFX) summon. Shiva would appear pull off a single, ultra-powerful ice attack (more powerful than any version of Blizzaga or Freeze at the same rank/level) and then vanish. This would not interrupt the battle, but merely the perspective of the players within the sphere of influence.

In short, the idea is to revive traditional FF one-shot summoning, but this time make it much more dramatic with multiple battlefield changing effects as it is being cast.

The avatar-as-a-pet idea is something that works OK in single player FF games, but in an MMO environment, they fall flat. I'd ave the pet concept for a Beastmaster or Puppetmaster like class.

Nothing would work in ffxiv's current state.

Really? how so? You do understand that most of us make a pack with the avatar that the beastman can Summon. SE said that we could later summon them by doing a chain of quest. Then you allow to use there powers in battle. If you ever did the high rank mission one of them talk to you and say you have gods but can't summon them? You most make a pack with me and don't talk to the other avatar or something like.

It's clear that the storyline could allow you to use them if you learn them for the beastman also SE said we later could learn from the beastman spell,craft items, and much more.

Is beastman the same thing as summoner?

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Is beastman the same thing as summoner?

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No, Currently in xiv the beast tribes are the only ones who have access to the primals they are there gods. and Members of the beast tribes are currently the only ones who can cause them to manifest them self physically.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

Is beastman the same thing as summoner?

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No Beastman can summoner the avatar, Ifirt e.g that there gods. The 5 race have 12 gods and the beastman each have there own gods. Each of the beastman can summoner there own god to help them they also take the form of them. They worship there avatar to the point that there body look like them. Now SE said that all beastman are not evil most of them think that talking it over would bring peace to the world the others think that war would. In the storyline we talk to the beastman and tell them we both may not get along but we both well get kill by the empire. The empire wants to get all the avatar and use them for something if you ever saw the opening movie the big dragon blow up the ship and all the avatar was release from it they trying to get them back again,.



@Griss yep he 100% right about it only the beast tribes for now. btw griss don't you think it mess up that we know noting about our gods but more about the beastmans? i wish we could learn more about our own gods.

So at the end yes we could use them later but for now no :) we can learn from the beastman like spell and other stuff. Maybe this also could mean they could be a blue mage job in the works and summoners could be a class that pick up the avatars from the beastmans.

however, beastman is a horrible name....

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Originally Posted by Evangela

however, beastman is a horrible name....

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o.o what would you call them then? i enjoy the name sense FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am in favor of constructive responses to threads

I am strongly against idiotic responses targeting specific individuals

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Hypocritical much?

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Originally Posted by Galamantyl

I am strongly against sad pathetic people who still use the controller

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Originally Posted by Evangela

however, beastman is a horrible name....

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What's wrong with beastman? It's like saying "human" or "animal". It's just an aggregate.

If it makes you feel better, just call them Amaal'ja, Goblins, Sahagin, Sylphs, Ixal, Kobolds, or Qiqirin.

It always kind of annoyed me that ancient and powerful beings were at the beck and call of everyday Joe Vanadiel, typically in the single player games somebody would have to do something to earn that kind of service.

I want them to add Summoners again for sure but I still think we got a long way to go before this might actually happen. I really hope they bring Geomancers around this time or maybe Time Mages. Illusionist and Necromancer would be pretty cool too.

When I first saw 'Conjuror', I was hoping it would've been more along the lines of summoner, but more of an 'elementalist' if you get my drift... they would summon various elementals and use their power, or employ them as a sort of pet, etc. Something a little more divided from what it is now (which is basically a classic Black Mage with support spells thrown in).

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Originally Posted by Verecund

When I first saw 'Conjuror', I was hoping it would've been more along the lines of summoner, but more of an 'elementalist' if you get my drift... they would summon various elementals and use their power, or employ them as a sort of pet, etc. Something a little more divided from what it is now (which is basically a classic Black Mage with support spells thrown in).

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Check out the French translation for conjurer... :p

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Originally Posted by Nephera

It always kind of annoyed me that ancient and powerful beings were at the beck and call of everyday Joe Vanadiel, typically in the single player games somebody would have to do something to earn that kind of service.

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Which is why I say again it should be quested, their favor and their power. It can totally be done in this game. hell, it NEEDS to be done. Can you call it a FF game without a smn class? Its something only a heretic would do, I say!

Hey here's an idea ha ha ha and its just for fun I am some what serious but also just throwing out something ridiculous and I am aware. Since we don't have 2 hour abilities and our birthdays are based on the gods of eorozea then why not have the primals attuned to them and our 2 hour ability be one insanely devastating attack or buff that can change the tide of hard fights.

I know its not a pet class but imagine you have your primal attuned to your diety? I would love Rhalgar the Destroyer come down and bring the pain

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

oh gala my puppetmaster tank puppet tanked in a qufim party cuz our pld was lazy. I put good tank attackments on it and pld barely could take hate from it. And I barely used oils. so a pet class pet can tank. My puppet tanks all the time when I played ffxi.

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Yah, I've heard this story before, and it always turns out to be bs. Note the lack of mention of what level you are, how much exp/hr you were getting - and it's qufim! Why do you have a pld around that level range for tanking in the first place? I used to tank things at that level with my bard.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

It always kind of annoyed me that ancient and powerful beings were at the beck and call of everyday Joe Vanadiel, typically in the single player games somebody would have to do something to earn that kind of service.

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If you really think so, then I don't think you paid enough attention to the SMN storyline in FFXI (and some of CoP) :( which is a shame. Personally I found XI had one of the best reasons in the series to give avatars to the players.

A lot of FFs are simply about the party defeating the avatar, and him/her being impressed and joining them. FFXI not only went a little deeper than that, but it also explained why it was good for a lot of random adventurers to be able to summon avatars.