How Many Would Have Rather Seen RDM than SMN

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Originally Posted by Zahak

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Can't tell if fake or leak <_< good job lol

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Thanks. I figured everyone would know the answer to that one, since I'm sure they can tell from the pixels and having seen a few 'shops in their time. Kinda like this one. >.>;

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Originally Posted by Levian

I think RDM was done right, at least in regards to accurate portrayal according to lore. B grade swordsmanship, access to all but the highest tiers of black and white magic. Problem is it didn't seem to take into account that it was placed in an MMO setting.

Problem was the playerbase pushed em to the back line alongside White and black mages. It was rare to see it used as anything other than a healing haste/refresh monkey. God help you if you drew your weapon to smack something in a party setting, you'd never hear the end of it.

The inherent problem with a jack of all trades job in an MMO environment is that adequate will never be seen as good enough. If you're an ok meelee/magic damage dealing job and anything better is available, guess what will be fulfilling the DD role? Not you. I'm sure I don't need to point this out, but the group that's always overpopulated in the MMO Holy trinity is damage dealing classes. And if you're an ok healer...well you're still a healer and in every MMO i've played healers are the scarcest role, so guess where you'll be pressed into service. Just look at XI's Summoners, stuck healing from about level 10 until the late 60s/early 70s just because they had the mana pool to scrape by in the healing role with whm subbed.

I'll go ahead and say it, if Redmage were to do anything other than buff/heal it would need to be a Spellsword capable of respectable damage. Not bottom rung, not "mediocre," I mean right there alongside the other damage dealing classes.

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Well said. Glad to see someone else is aware of this issue.

No thanks on RDM. We already can make "Jack of All Trade" classes, don't need a redundant Job for that.

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Originally Posted by Yukagama

RDM would not be a RDM with out the blck and white magic, outside of FFXI, RDM has both white and black magic along with Dot and debuff spells.

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Thing is you can't really give RDM everything to be versatile without seriously handicapping it with the limitations on ability slots. They'll likely have to focus RDM's role into one or two aspects and probably combine some of their abilities to make it work. Like incorporating something like a Burning Blade > Red Lotus Blade > Flare Blade combo that consumes TP and MP, maybe give them a cure spell like Sacrifice which will consume hp and mp to keep RDM from becoming backlined if it's as strong as Cura.

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Originally Posted by Loony_BoB

So long as RDM is what RDM should be - average at melee, average at healing, average at magic DD with no high end spells. It should be the Jack of all trades - not the King, not even the Queen.

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i agree with what he says.. RDM is supposed to be an average job. with average skills, and average moves

i think the RDM will be one of the last jobs because it IS a jack of ALL trades. so let us balance out our specialized jobs before asking for something thats going to encompass everything, RDM wont be anything new.. we actually had it before jobs came out. think about the classes that could do EVERYTHING before.. we had FFXIV: Red mage edition. everyone bitched about it. lol

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Thanks. I figured everyone would know the answer to that one, since I'm sure they can tell from the pixels and having seen a few 'shops in their time. Kinda like this one. >.>;

Well said. Glad to see someone else is aware of this issue.

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Well the back story actually sounds like something SE would really do, very creative of you :)

SMN>>>RDM in my book so im very happy with the outcome, cant please everyone

I really really want RDM. Its my alltime favorite class. Its been a FF staple since FF1 (along with thief, another favorite of mine), so I think its a shame that they seem to be holding out on us. Here's hoping we wont wait TOO long before they introduce a fencer class and give us RDM.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

This guy right here.

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SMN all the way something new and i want to see how SMN gameplay it's gonna be like, hear it's noting like FFXI, so we will see.

/BLU

/endthread

Not this guy. Summoning has always been one of my favorite aspects of the series and Summoner was my main in XI. The only reason I went more melee oriented in XIV so far is just because there is no Summoner. The moment I can play Arcanist though, I'm going to be all over it. With that said, I'd still like to see RDMs around town because they have awesome AF. Even though I'd probably not go for RDM, it would certainly add to the FF vibe to see others walking around as them.

Well I'm all SMN *pose* my main job. I have a feeling that SE has a couple more aces up their sleeve. When I was watching the video the dev said that they're going to add more "classes" as in plural....nix summoner because devs said SMN was arriving "after" launch. So, that's just one class. I have a feeling that RDM will see 2.0 release and among other other caster classes.

We definitely need another healer class. Not saying SMN or RDM should fill that void, but it's needed.

There should be multiple options for DPS, Tanking, AND healing. My personal hope is that musketeer turns into chemist as a job, with HoTS as the main focus in addition to "Throw Potion" and enhanced potion effects when used by a chemist. It'll also fill the coffers of a few alchemists.

I'd only want RDM if it excelled at casting WHILE meleeing, not the way FFXI did it.

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Originally Posted by Deakka

We definitely need another healer class. Not saying SMN or RDM should fill that void, but it's needed.

There should be multiple options for DPS, Tanking, AND healing. My personal hope is that musketeer turns into chemist as a job, with HoTS as the main focus in addition to "Throw Potion" and enhanced potion effects when used by a chemist. It'll also fill the coffers of a few alchemists.

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That would actually be pretty damn cool. You thinking Tatics Chemist?

perfect time for summoner, i hope they they reveal shiva in the long run and leviathien if water spell come bk.

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Originally Posted by Deakka

We definitely need another healer class. Not saying SMN or RDM should fill that void, but it's needed.

There should be multiple options for DPS, Tanking, AND healing. My personal hope is that musketeer turns into chemist as a job, with HoTS as the main focus in addition to "Throw Potion" and enhanced potion effects when used by a chemist. It'll also fill the coffers of a few alchemists.

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While I would love to see a tactics style chemist in the game (actually thought alchemist would be like that originally) I think I would cry if that turned out to be Musketeer's job. I'd rather see musketeer turn into something like engineer/machinist or corsair/gambler.

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Originally Posted by Paddle

That would actually be pretty damn cool. You thinking Tatics Chemist?

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Yep. There's definitely room for another style of healer (Heals over Time style could definitely be useful), and I loooooved my tactics chemists, at least after getting a few decent guns.

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Originally Posted by Paddle

That would actually be pretty damn cool. You thinking Tatics Chemist?

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Or Riku from ffx/alchemist of ffx-2 the latter weilding a gun =P mixing items together for new effects was pretty awesome in both of those games.

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Originally Posted by Firon

The fact you think XI nailed the rdm role is laughable, XI rdm was done wrong.

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you sure didnt know how to play RDM then, i think it was perfect in everyway. solo slow kills but win. I love it.

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Originally Posted by Yukagama

you sure didnt know how to play RDM then, i think it was perfect in everyway. solo slow kills but win. I love it.

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If you would have read what i quoted RDM was no near a jack of all trades it more of a mage than anything.

Wish those pics were real, sounds like a badass kind of Red Mage.

Red Mage is my all time Favorite Final Fantasy class.

I've always preferred the Games where every Character could have summons and you learn special skills depending on which one you used. I think they could have done it somehow in an MMO.

If they wanted a Pet Class, we should have gotten Beastmaster.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Wish those pics were real, sounds like a badass kind of Red Mage.

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I can personally picture three different lore uses for Red Mages. One being rogue mage/witch hunters, going along with an idea from the RDM Design thread on the FFXI forums, where someone mentioned that it'd be neat if an enemy wizard or mage's worst nightmare on the battlefield would be the Red Mage.

Another one would be field agents for a higher power, playing off how Red Mages were hinted to being used in FFXI. Of course, the writers never divulged much on that end, as the AF questline was basically "This is Rainemard. He knew too much. He was chopped to pieces and stuffed in a box. The end".

The third is a variation of the second, as peace keepers. Playing off the type of vibe people in western films get with the town sherrif, who is easily recognized (in the case of RDM, a guy in a red tabard, a rapier and pimp hat is hard to miss). For what purpose, I wouldn't be able to say.

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Originally Posted by Yukagama

you sure didnt know how to play RDM then, i think it was perfect in everyway. solo slow kills but win. I love it.

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Refreshbot and Hastebot with staying power that made it beneficial to have as a healer in the group and lolenfeebles does not a Red Mage make.

They not only got the job wrong, but did a disservice to many people who played it.

To people saying RDM will just end up being not good enough if it's a Jack of all Trades, perhaps that is more down to the enemies being faced. If they job-lock you in certain dungeons then this problem would go away. What happens if there are fights in that dungeon where you need more healers than in others which would require more attackers? In order to win in such a case, you would need a versatile job - hello, RDM. There should be certain endgame content designed to cater for the various different jobs available to us. Also, if Bard can do damage from range while buffing and curing when needed, why not RDM? Give them perhaps WAR level melee damage, obviously less defence/HP to sort out the tanking issue, and magic. Simples. If there's a problem where RDM constantly gets turned into healer-only or magic-only, then the obvious solution is to lower the MP available.

If a RDM is a jack of all trades, then it won't have a solid place in any group.

it NEEDS to excel in some area.

So then you have to have a rdm, or you're locked out of the content. Or on the other hand, you could have someone along with gear for 2 jobs, one dedicated healing and one for damage dealing and just have them switch out depending on the boss. And if you lower the MP pool to the point where it can't function adequately as either healer or caster then you've effectively turned it into a pure meelee DPS with mediocre sword skill.

You see where Red Mage is a pain in the ass to balance yet? The problem isn't even so much the jack of all trades part, it's the master of none part. In an MMO setting you need one of 3 things mastered, Healing, Tanking, or DD in some form. I suppose since this is FF we can add a 4th role, buffing. But at the same time we're not talking about something that should be competing with Bard. I would say debuffing, but anything important is likely to be immune to debuffs so there's that.

So if you don't accel at one of those 3 roles, you'll be sitting out. A lot. Unless you're doing sexual favors for your LS leader. Or your job is ok at healing, then you'l get an invite because healers are perpetually scarce. I mean seriously, how do you make something that's B grade meelee, nuking, and healing worth that party slot in an MMO without making it stupid over powered? It literally can't be done, at least not in the traditional RDM sense.

My thoughts are give it B grade healing spells, just enough to keep a party going reliably. Give them an A grade mastery of rapiers, but tune them to do fairly weak damage in and of themselves, and use black magic to supplement that. En-spells to add an elemental property to the sword and increase it's damage, some DOT/debuffs maybe, possibly even a short or instant cast but slightly weakened nuke here or there to pump up the dps a little. But I don't think this would be the thread to hash it out in.

Enspells... so then Mystic Knight instead of RDM?

Something I pulled from RDM in FFXI actually. Wasn't aware it was used elsewhere in the series, though thinking back Steiner and Vivi had a combo attack that worked similar to an enspell.

enspells were enveloped much into Pugilist and Monk so far so it would be kind of hard to give redmage but they did say that Monk was going to go through some drastic changes in 2.0 didn't they... who knows~ as for RDM should stay class C in all areas and not have all these top tier spells but have some Top Tiers of their own yes okay ill revert to say from FFXI spells like Haste and such just something to make them viable and give them at least some melee dmg... I don't know I'm glad were getting Summoner -sticks tongue out-

Well to the people would say Rdm excels at nothing, they COULD take the 11 path again and make them the BEST enfeeblers. Enfeebles that will actually effect bosses. That would give them some use. And give them AoE EN spells so they fighting Mire the whole party can get enfire. That would make them very useful.

edit: the en spells wouldnt overwrite the monks fist ability it would overwrite the En spell. and shouldnt have the same effect. Like Enwind will not make weapons faster.

I really don't think the idea behind RDM as a jack of all trades fits with what the devs are trying to do with the job system, which is all about specialization in one role. Like I said earlier, RDM as we currently know it according to anything pre-FFXI is essentially a Gladiator with magic. From what it looks like, Arcanist will be taking the role of DoT and enfeebles, so that probably throws that idea for RDM out the window. What's left? Elemental enhancements and different buffs than a bard? Possibly, but then they'd might as well release Mystic Knight/Sorcerer, which would add a a breath of fresh air as opposed to the usual addition of RDM.

Did anyone else notice in the PAX presentation that the demo presenter mentioned "new classes they'll be adding towards release" as in plural? It could have just been him mixing up class(arcanist) and job(summoner), or just a thing he said though.

But hmmm...

The only strange thing is the link between Arcanist and its job Summoner. A debuff class is needed, so Arcanist (without pet) has to be implemented, and its job could have been Red Mage.
Maybe the class for Summoner should be Evocker, or something like that... But I don't mind, I too excited for ARR!!!

I imagine they went off that player poll they had a while back and more people voted for smn. I can't remember if RDM was on there or not though.

Actually I would prefer both because then all are happy .... but ....
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...arbuncle_4.gif http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...arbuncle_4.gif http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...arbuncle_4.gif http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...arbuncle_4.gif http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...arbuncle_4.gif http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...arbuncle_4.gif

Well seeing as there are only 2 magic classes in the game i'd be all for an implementation of a couple of DoM classes in ARR launch or early updates rather. being as that yoshi says it's suppposed to be a fan service title i would say you have to implement RDM at some point, as they are staple to the series. I personally think it would be awesome to switch it up and have rdm's use guns this time and be based on the musketeer class!

Shooting magic enfeeble bullets ftw and have super potent enfeeble and en spells/bullets, fast cast, haste etc. of course you don't want to shoot a haste bullet in your allies face to give them a buff lol so that may have to be an actual spell.

red mage was on the player poll. Rdm got the second lowest vote after Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

red mage was on the player poll. Rdm got the second lowest vote after Dark Knight.

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I think alot of that stemmed from the bitter taste Tanaka left in our mouths from FFXI's RDM, which has suffered greatly from neglect and any serious work on the job for almost 10 years. Seriously they barely touched it in 8 years, they didn't bother fixing anything when everyone thought it was OP and they haven't bothered fixing anything now that everyone thinks it's broken and useless.

But seriously there are lots of ways they could implement RDM in a traditional sense and have it's place as a WAR/BRD level DD, WHM level nuker, and a PLD level healer. They can be entirely creative and come up with a new aspect, or throw in something like the original Thaumatarge and have RDM focus purely on the light and dark aspects which wouldn't be entirely out of the original lore, or go for the FF9 route with Steiner and use WS nukes.

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Originally Posted by Enma

The only strange thing is the link between Arcanist and its job Summoner. A debuff class is needed, so Arcanist (without pet) has to be implemented, and its job could have been Red Mage.

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Arcanists have the ability to summon Carbuncle.

Red Mages are not a Debuffing class, they are DD who can assist with heals and buffs. Like ARC/BRD.

In every Final Fantasy, that had them, except XI, Red Mage was a Strong Melee with the Ability to Nuke and Heal.

While it did place second to last in the player's poll, Red Mage did still receive a solid 15% of votes across all regions, and in a poll with 5 choices 15% is fairly high. Furthermore, Red Mage and Dark Knight were the only choices with only a single job exampled, the pet class choice also put forward Puppetmaster as an example, the assassin choice pointed to Ninja and Theif, and the original class displayed the completely different examples of Musketeer and Arithmatician, this certainly would have had an impact on the results. Maybe less so for Summoner since Puppetmaster fans are probably fewer in number then those of Ninja or Thief, and the original class choice was pretty much a catch all for anyone else. If one were to assume that the double job combinations were evenly split then Red Mage would have actually won the poll, albeit by a slim margin over summoner (though as i mentioned a even split there probably isn't the case, but might be likely between ninja and thief), but with a 5% or greater lead over any other single job.

I am still of the opinion that they will add at least two new jobs for 2.0, and that this second class would be more melee oriented. This would be a smart move to satisfy the many current players who have all DoW, both DoM, or all of the above leveled to 50, since it would allow both players who favor melee and those who favor mage jobs to experience the new content in 2.0 with a fresh start. If not as their favorite job, then at least as a discipline that they generally enjoy.

Red Mage could well fill the role of a melee-oriented job, as well as possibly fill the currently vacant role of debuff support (though it could be argued that this role is not even needed at all).

Regardless, while I do believe that there will be two new jobs for 2.0, I don't have much hope that Red Mage actually will be that second job. As the poll results show, it's more likely to simply be Thief or Ninja (or both depending on how the class/job thing works out).

i cant wait really.. i dont mind leveling a new class.. ill take arc for smn anyday... summoning..(i like the new looks for the primals so far.) thats what i have been waiting for.. though in 11 smns were rather OP .. not only was i one but have seen several endgame summoners as smn/whm healing groups just as good as any whm... they might have only leviathan and gaurda for their main aoe heals but they had the smaller ones as well plus most cures... enhance spells almost as good as an RDM.. etc.. OP in my opinion and dont forget the level 30 missions 3 summoners could easily defeat the final boss with their 2 hour ability with everyone else as healer/tank keeping them alive and safe. I dont mind smns with healing, enhancing, enfeebles and such but i hope their main focus is damage and nothing more

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Not really, although Jobs were never originally planned in FFXIV's design (Tanaka even said he wanted to keep away from the traditional FF jobs in FFXIV) there was a musketeer class designed for the Alpha of 1.0. Musketeer even has an unused guild in Limsa and looking at the types of weapons GLA uses there are no rapier, epee, or other fencing type weapons in GLA's arsenal or in the game at the moment.

Besides that, functionally GLA to RDM does not work in the slightest. ...

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Good observation and I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Yukagama

First of all Musketeer would not be Rdm as a job, why is that because of gun's. I think Musketeer would be corsair XD!

Fencer would be RDM for sure or mystic mage.

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This is so true, even though Rdm was my bloodport job in FFxi, i would unlock/ level it in xIv if it was different. I mean, come on! Gun-Blades! Bring it! Guns & cannons, bring it! I want to blow stuff up with artillery again!

The fencing weapon would have a piercing/ slashing behavior in battle.