Question: Do we have enough content for high-end and casual equally?

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Originally Posted by Bryson

I disagree with the insinuation that playing casually is at odds with "dedicating time, studying, playing their job right, learning." I'd argue that's patronizing to suggest someone "busy" is effectively incapable of doing those things. What makes you so confident that merely playing casually necessarily means, you are allergic to rotations and studying? I have friends in college who have cleared literally all content... hell they have thousands of hours played more than me...

Your obsession with putting people in boxes isn't reflected in reality.

What you really mean is: You're busy with college and don't wanna do content that requires time, studying, playing your job correctly etc etc.. This is completely valid opinion.. I just don't know what that has to do with playing casually or not. I know people who live on XIV (literally 12+ hours of playtime a day) and they feel the same way as you. Inversely, I know people busy af IRL and think the opposite (they only log on to do what you'd call hardcore). Your binary framework doesn't account for people all along the spectrum. It's not boxes, it's more of a venn diagram.

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I can dedicate a lot of time to casual content, yes, and I do. But hardcore isn't just something I can pick up and play whenever. You cannot pick up and play hardcore because it requires study and mastery. Hardcore content lacking that pick up and play nature is what fundamentally separates it.
And frankly, when it comes to learning my job... It is something I have to go out of my way to do. I am not good at studying, and the game lacks meaningful tools to help me learn to play my jobs. A lot of the time it feels more trouble then its worth.

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

I want casual content that has meaningful long-term playability. That is something that Endwalker and Dawntrail have lacked, Occult Crescent was supposed to be that but falters.
Occult Crescent itself is plagued by Forked Tower only appealing to raiders.
Hardcore content by its nature is great at being long-term content. Casual content not so much, we need content specifically tailored to it.

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again wit the zero sum framing. There's nothing casual or hardcore about it. Someone could be in OC for 16 hours a day. On what planet would that player be described as a "casual."

inversly, someone could only play a couple hours a week... but only do savage and ultimates. How are they more hardcore if they're playing significantly less than the person who lives in OC?

your framing has it exactly backwards. It has nothing to do with these arbitrary definitions, and everything to do with preferences.

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

Hardcore content by its nature is great at being long-term content. Casual content not so much

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This right here is what people keep missing. The reason some of us keep saying the higher-difficulty crowd has been catered too all expansion is because they have consistently been getting pieces of content that will last them more than a couple of hours(some of which was initially pitched to be less-difficult content), while those who are uninterested in higher-difficulty content for whatever reason just get the usual stuff that is one-and-done. Rather than continuously trying and failing to entice the uninterested into doing higher-difficulty content, they should be fleshing out the less-difficult content to, at the very least, have as much longevity as the higher-difficulty content. They also need to stop "accidentally" overtuning content pitched to be on the less-difficult side.

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

I can dedicate a lot of time to casual content, yes, and I do. But hardcore isn't just something I can pick up and play whenever. You cannot pick up and play hardcore because it requires study and mastery. Hardcore content lacking that pick up and play nature is what fundamentally separates it.
And frankly, when it comes to learning my job... It is something I have to go out of my way to do. I am not good at studying, and the game lacks meaningful tools to help me learn to play my jobs. A lot of the time it feels more trouble then its worth.

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I disagree with the premise that content is "casual" or "hardcore."

By your logic, the people clearing savage and ultimates in pf shouldn't exist.. They pick up and play it whenever they can... Why is reading a strat or a guide antitheticial with joining a pf (what's called a pug in wow).

It's kinda ironic that you're a college student yet you despise studying conceptually?

Also you keep conflating "doesn't interest me" with "everyone who plays casually also doesn't engage with it" which simply isn't the case.

Your disinterest in learning/studying isn't the normative standard for every casual players interest to be measured against. It's not a monolith group.. it's way more nuanced than that.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

This right here is what people keep missing. The reason some of us keep saying the hardcore crowd has been catered too all expansion is because they have consistently been getting pieces of content that will last them more than a couple of hours(which to be fair the longevity really isn't all that much greater), while those who are uninterested in harder content for whatever reason just get the usual stuff that is one-and-done. Rather than continuously trying and failing to entice the uninterested into doing all this harder content, they should be fleshing out the easier content to, at the very least, have as much longevity as the harder content.

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being uninterested in harder content has nothing to do with whether you play casually or not though? Someone could be uninterested in savage or ultimates, but be rp'ing for pvp'ing or 16 hours a day? Inversely, someone could be only interested in that harder content but only have 9 hours a week to spare.

It's not zero sum.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

being uninterested in harder content has nothing to do with whether you play casually or not though? Someone could be uninterested in savage or ultimates, but be rp'ing for pvp'ing or 16 hours a day? Inversely, someone could be only interested in that harder content but only have 9 hours a week to spare.

It's not zero sum.

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Maybe actually read what I said instead of reducing everything to a "hardcore vs casual" semantics argument. I even went back and edited out all instances of those two buzzwords just to help you out.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

Maybe actually read what I said instead of reducing everything to a "hardcore vs casual" semantics argument?

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i'm saying your premise is flawed. Content's longevity is relative to the time put into it. Has nothing to do with what arbitrary bucket someone happens to think it goes in. Have you ever heard of a raid logger? Their existence undermines what you suggested (harder = more longevity). Anecdotally, I know people who have thousands of hours more in playtime than me, and they don't do that harder content at all. Your framing doesn't account for people who use their time differently.. again, irrespective of the difficulty of the content. You're actually falling for the very thing I believe you also regard as semantics

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Originally Posted by Bryson

i'm saying your premise is flawed. Content's longevity is relative to the time put into it. Has nothing to do with what arbitrary bucket someone happens to think it goes in. Have you ever heard of a raid logger? Their existence undermines what you suggested (harder = more longevity). Anecdotally, I know people who have thousands of hours more in playtime than me, and they don't do that harder content at all. Your framing doesn't account for people who use their time differently.. again, irrespective of the difficulty of the content. You're actually falling for the very thing I believe you also regard as semantics

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Like I said, go back and actually read the contents of my post because nowhere am I suggesting "harder = more longevity". I even removed the buzzwords that you hyperfocus on to help you understand.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

again wit the zero sum framing. There's nothing casual or hardcore about it. Someone could be in OC for 16 hours a day. On what planet would that player be described as a "casual."

inversly, someone could only play a couple hours a week... but only do savage and ultimates. How are they more hardcore if they're playing significantly less than the person who lives in OC?

your framing has it exactly backwards. It has nothing to do with these arbitrary definitions, and everything to do with preferences.

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It makes no sense whatsoever to use casual and hardcore to refer to time played. Who cares how long someone plays? It doesn't tell you anything about anything. If "casual" can mean someone who just does one story mission a week and then logs out and also mean someone who clears ultimate weekly then it's completely worthless as a way to describe anyone.

It only makes sense to use casual and hardcore to mean the level of content difficulty someone engages with. Easy content is casual, difficult or overly tedious content is hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It makes no sense whatsoever to use casual and hardcore to refer to time played. Who cares how long someone plays? It doesn't tell you anything about anything. If "casual" can mean someone who just does one story mission a week and then logs out and also mean someone who clears ultimate weekly then it's completely worthless as a way to describe anyone.

It only makes sense to use casual and hardcore to mean the level of content difficulty someone engages with. Easy content is casual, difficult or overly tedious content is hardcore.

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They seem to be latching onto any use of the terms "hardcore" and "casual" as some sort of gotcha, which is why I went and edited them out of my previous post to better convey the actual point, which is the lack of general longevity for lower-difficulty content vs higher-difficulty content.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

I disagree with the premise that content is "casual" or "hardcore."

By your logic, the people clearing savage and ultimates in pf shouldn't exist.. They pick up and play it whenever they can... Why is reading a strat or a guide antitheticial with joining a pf (what's called a pug in wow).

It's kinda ironic that you're a college student yet you despise studying conceptually?

Also you keep conflating "doesn't interest me" with "everyone who plays casually also doesn't engage with it" which simply isn't the case.

Your disinterest in learning/studying isn't the normative standard for every casual players interest to be measured against. It's not a monolith group.. it's way more nuanced than that.

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"Casual" and "Hardcore" are just buzz words at this point. And like... No, I do not like studying, yet I still do it... Do you think it is fun? Who thinks studying is fun???
And I *do* learn things. I have cleared multiple pieces of high-difficulty content. I have my Ozma mount, I have my Cerberus mount, and I have done other pieces of high-difficulty content too. My issue is that this game does not really provide good teaching tools, hence why I do not do high difficulty content a lot. Really the only way to clear high difficulty content is to study... I don't like that. The game needs to provide more tools for hands-on learners like myself.
And I never said that all casuals don't engage with hardcore content. My exact words on my second post in this thread were that "not all casual players have the time to do harder content, or even like doing so". I never spoke for every casual, just for some. Yet you said that "all content can be cleared by all players." I think you are the one speaking for everyone here, not me. People have different preferences. Some will like higher difficulty content, some will not. Some will have an easier time clearing, some will not. Saying that high-difficulty content is for everyone is just blatantly false.

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

"Casual" and "Hardcore" are just buzz words at this point. And like... No, I do not like studying, yet I still do it... Do you think it is fun? Who thinks studying is fun???
And I *do* learn things. I have cleared multiple pieces of high-difficulty content. I have my Ozma mount, I have my Cerberus mount, and I have done other pieces of high-difficulty content too. My issue is that this game does not really provide good teaching tools, hence why I do not do high difficulty content a lot. Really the only way to clear high difficulty content is to study... I don't like that. The game needs to provide more tools for hands-on learners like myself.
And I never said that all casuals don't engage with hardcore content. My exact words on my second post in this thread were that "not all casual players have the time to do harder content, or even like doing so". I never spoke for every casual, just for some. Yet you said that "all content can be cleared by all players." I think you are the one speaking for everyone here, not me. People have different preferences. Some will like higher difficulty content, some will not. Some will have an easier time clearing, some will not. Saying that high-difficulty content is for everyone is just blatantly false.

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If you acknowledge they're buzzwords, why do you keep using them? putting people into boxes arbitrarily, as opposed to letting the individual determine what is for them relative to the time and effort they've decided to allot to the content is how we end up in these discussions that lack nuance. 10 people who play the game casually could all play for very different reasons. 10 people who play the game 12+ hours a day could also play for very different reasons. It's not binary.

I played casually arr - shb. I cleared content that you describe as "high difficulty." I still did it though.. as do many others who play casually. This notion that playing casually inherently means you have a lowering ceiling is false.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

If you acknowledge they're buzzwords, why do you keep using them? putting people into boxes arbitrarily, as opposed to letting the individual determine what is for them relative to the time and effort they've decided to allot to the content is how we end up in these discussions that lack nuance. 10 people who play the game casually could all play for very different reasons. 10 people who play the game 12+ hours a day could also play for very different reasons. It's not binary.

I played casually arr - shb. I cleared content that you describe as "high difficulty." I still did it though.. as do many others who play casually. This notion that playing casually inherently means you have a lowering ceiling is false.

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???
You're just putting words into my mouth at this point

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

???
You're just putting words into my mouth at this point

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It's because they don't have any real argument when it comes to the actual points being discussed.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I'm just one guy but it doesn't matter what sort of reward you put in there. If I have to enter a discord call to listen to someone do callouts, I'll pass.

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This is a good way of putting it. Personally I want something that I can queue into at any time and not autopilot or do from memory.

The previous raid tier felt like it was in the right spot for casual difficulty and with less scripted mechanics I think it could serve as a model for midcore content.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Of course, people are bound to be frustrated that DPS Checks are entering casual content; but let's be honest: when has any challenge been put forth when it comes to the base content?

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Uh, that was one of the few things some people were praising Dawntrail for, that it's "normal" content became harder this time around. And naturally, that lead to some other people leaving because they couldn't keep up with the pace, which coupled with the absolute deluge of other hardcore content this expansion, is why the game is in this current pickle of "doesn't appeal to casuals anymore" (though its debatable if it ever did).

I've said elsewhere that Square-Enix is delusional if they think there's a "casual to hardcore pipeline" when what's actually happening is an ever growing wall. It's only made worse when a sizable portion of the community is more than happy to kick down anyone trying to climb it too.

It goes beyond just a lack of skill level for me to do most content (and no amount of rewards are going to magically make me better than I am), it's also the fact that I don't want to get caught in the crosshairs of those players who flip out and start screaming and kicking over every single failed mechanic or death. I've played a lot of MMOs and FF14 has been the most anti-social one I've ever experienced, where contrary to the memes, it's not as friendly as it claims and does in fact instill a fear of failure.

There's a certain irony in how the game becomes more viable the more I rely on unsyncing and NPCs and avoid the content that forces one to play with others. I'm honestly better off freezing my MSQ progress waiting for them to add Trusts to all EW/DT Trials then I would be trying to queue into them because I REFUSE to go through what I did for Seat of Sacrifice again.

How we ended up with an MMO where people endlessly hate on each other and demand they quit I have no idea, but I'm perfectly find "staying in my lane" and not touching hardcore content or even normal content I struggle with, I just wish I didn't have to deal with hostility trying to progress the MSQ because of some damn Trial again.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Uh, that was one of the few things some people were praising Dawntrail for, that it's "normal" content became harder this time around. And naturally, that lead to some other people leaving because they couldn't keep up with the pace, which coupled with the absolute deluge of other hardcore content this expansion, is why the game is in this current pickle of "doesn't appeal to casuals anymore" (though its debatable if it ever did).

I've said elsewhere that Square-Enix is delusional if they think there's a "casual to hardcore pipeline" when what's actually happening is an ever growing wall. It's only made worse when a sizable portion of the community is more than happy to kick down anyone trying to climb it too.

It goes beyond just a lack of skill level for me to do most content (and no amount of rewards are going to magically make me better than I am), it's also the fact that I don't want to get caught in the crosshairs of those players who flip out and start screaming and kicking over every single failed mechanic or death. I've played a lot of MMOs and FF14 has been the most anti-social one I've ever experienced, where contrary to the memes, it's not as friendly as it claims and does in fact instill a fear of failure.

There's a certain irony in how the game becomes more viable the more I rely on unsyncing and NPCs and avoid the content that forces one to play with others. I'm honestly better off freezing my MSQ progress waiting for them to add Trusts to all EW/DT Trials then I would be trying to queue into them because I REFUSE to go through what I did for Seat of Sacrifice again.

How we ended up with an MMO where people endlessly hate on each other and demand they quit I have no idea, but I'm perfectly find "staying in my lane" and not touching hardcore content or even normal content I struggle with, I just wish I didn't have to deal with hostility trying to progress the MSQ because of some damn Trial again.

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There's a few different issues with that that are both community-driven and also driven by content. Endwalker in particular had a problem with its post-patch dungeons being relatively easy for what was supposed to be Expert, mainly because of the fact that enemy HP Pools were lackluster for what a dungeon should entail. Mechanically, everything was par for the course. It's not even overgearing either. Some of it is heavily caused by Tanks becoming unkillable Gods(staring at you WAR) in dungeons and others it's how people understand their jobs and whether they Level Skipped, which is common in new expansions mind.

Still, I feel like while Duty Support is good for people, it also attributes to the anti-social problem of XIV because we're not interacting with people in dungeons. You just have NPCs that can do the whole dungeon for you as long as you don't die - even when you don't press buttons. There's no 'one fix' to fix this anti-social issue either. A lot of it is connections to begin with, and seeking out those connections through PF tends to be the best way I've found.

Regardless of that the game needs fail states if the player isn't interacting with the game, or just not pressing damage buttons. Without fail states you're just playing a platformer with no pitfalls.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

It's because they don't have any real argument when it comes to the actual points being discussed.

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"i don't like studying or learning my rotation (their words not mine) so because I don't like those things, "casual players" have no content to do... isn't a sound argument" it's reductivze and patronizes players who play casually.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I'm just one guy but it doesn't matter what sort of reward you put in there. If I have to enter a discord call to listen to someone do callouts, I'll pass.

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no content exists where this is required so.. you're in luck.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

"i don't like studying or learning my rotation (their words not mine) so because I don't like those things, "casual players" have no content to do... isn't a sound argument" it's reductivze and patronizes players who play casually.

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What does it even mean to be a "casual player" at this point???
My point was that there is little to no on-expansion content to do for people who don't like high-difficulty content. It feels like you are trying to twist definitions to aid in your nonexistent argument.

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

What does it even mean to be a "casual player" at this point???
My point was that there is little to no on-expansion content to do for people who don't like high-difficulty content. It feels like you are trying to twist definitions to aid in your nonexistent argument.

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well casual has a defintion already
adjective
1.
relaxed and unconcerned.

noun
1.
a person who does something irregularly.

so a player who does thinks irregularly (not in a static).. like the thousands of casual players who join pf, prog when they want, and log off when they're done for the day.

content merely exists... and people irrespective of how much hours they play in a given week, are free to engage in it if they so choose.

Casual content must always take priority as that is the content any and all players can and will do.

I don't think Dawntrail's done a good job on that front, as most "new" content, both at the lowest level of MSQ and most side content like Pilgrim's Traverse or Occult Crescent, have consistently been pushing difficulty in a failing attempt to train casual players into becoming hardcore players.

Instead it's just lead to a lot of players quitting out of blind frustration.

Quantum is the best example of a failed gimmick. Barely anyone wanted to experiment with the boss's power, instead going straight for maxing it out or not bothering after beating it in the Deep Dungeon itself.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

well casual has a defintion already
adjective
1.
relaxed and unconcerned.

noun
1.
a person who does something irregularly.

so a player who does thinks irregularly (not in a static).. like the thousands of casual players who join pf, prog when they want, and log off when they're done for the day.

content merely exists... and people irrespective of how much hours they play in a given week, are free to engage in it if they so choose.

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I can think of zero other people who define casual ffxiv players based on the dictionary definition of the word "casual". What Fawkes said about the definition of casual players is what I was using and what makes the most sense.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It makes no sense whatsoever to use casual and hardcore to refer to time played. Who cares how long someone plays? It doesn't tell you anything about anything. If "casual" can mean someone who just does one story mission a week and then logs out and also mean someone who clears ultimate weekly then it's completely worthless as a way to describe anyone.

It only makes sense to use casual and hardcore to mean the level of content difficulty someone engages with. Easy content is casual, difficult or overly tedious content is hardcore.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

Casual content must always take priority as that is the content any and all players can and will do.

I don't think Dawntrail's done a good job on that front, as most "new" content, both at the lowest level of MSQ and most side content like Pilgrim's Traverse or Occult Crescent, have consistently been pushing difficulty in a failing attempt to train casual players into becoming hardcore players.

Instead it's just lead to a lot of players quitting out of blind frustration.

Quantum is the best example of a failed gimmick. Barely anyone wanted to experiment with the boss's power, instead going straight for maxing it out or not bothering after beating it in the Deep Dungeon itself.

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I am fine with the skill ceiling being raised, but the skill floor SHOULD NOT be raised.

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

I can think of zero other people who define casual ffxiv players based on the dictionary definition of the word "casual". What Fawkes said about the definition of casual players is what I was using and what makes the most sense.

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Why would an subjective interpretation relative to an individuals arbitrary line in the sand be preferable to that of the actual definition? casual,hc, easy, hard, these are all subjective.. and reinforced na's obsession with putting people in boxes they made up to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It makes no sense whatsoever to use casual and hardcore to refer to time played. Who cares how long someone plays? It doesn't tell you anything about anything. If "casual" can mean someone who just does one story mission a week and then logs out and also mean someone who clears ultimate weekly then it's completely worthless as a way to describe anyone.

It only makes sense to use casual and hardcore to mean the level of content difficulty someone engages with. Easy content is casual, difficult or overly tedious content is hardcore.

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easy, difficult, and tedious are subjective... as is casual and hardcore. Why would your arbitrary line in the sand be the standard for which everyoen else ought be measured against?

why can't the individual determine what's for them on their own terms? as opposed to being prescribed what "ought be for them" based on arbitrary definitions based on nothing but vibes.

just speaking for myself here but the replayability in normal content was largely in the jobs for me.

The novelty of content wears out pretty quickly once it's been cleared, so content designed to be easily clearable won't last no matter how interesting they make them.

The wider variety in job gameplay and more depth in their kits did far more to keep me engaged with long grinds and farming than "more content" ever has.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Still, I feel like while Duty Support is good for people, it also attributes to the anti-social problem of XIV because we're not interacting with people in dungeons. You just have NPCs that can do the whole dungeon for you as long as you don't die - even when you don't press buttons. There's no 'one fix' to fix this anti-social issue either. A lot of it is connections to begin with, and seeking out those connections through PF tends to be the best way I've found.

Regardless of that the game needs fail states if the player isn't interacting with the game, or just not pressing damage buttons. Without fail states you're just playing a platformer with no pitfalls.

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I dealt with plenty of failure trying to do Seat of Sacrifice, thanks, so much so that other people felt they were better off giving me the boot and finding someone else. Keep in mind this was me doing it for the first time (so absolutely blind on mechanics) and that I NEEDED other people to clear the fight, no exception, while they didn't need me at all. There's a reason it took weeks for me to stop seeing Starshowers all over the First, and it was because Square-Enix made a poorly designed "Normal" Trial and didn't give me an NPC backup option.

It's also why I'm not too broken up about the player count plummeting, because if it gets bad enough to where the game becomes unsustainable as an actual MMO, Square-Enix is likely to give the game the same treatment they did FF11 by making 90% of the game doable with Trusts. (Who from what I can gather, can not "play the game for you" due to the way battle mechanics work in FF11 and you'll die/time out if you insist on not pushing buttons.)

I'd sooner try to prog hardcore content with NPCs (or solo) where every time I die its an instant wipe then deal with Discord cliques and the hardcore players that lurk in them because I don't have a problem with pitfalls, I have a problem with the people who would gladly push me into them and then laugh as I fall all the way down.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

"i don't like studying or learning my rotation (their words not mine) so because I don't like those things, "c****l players" have no content to do... isn't a sound argument" it's reductivze and patronizes players who play c****lly.

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Again, you're latching onto buzzwords and using them to shift the topic. This is not a discussion of c****l players having less content compared to h******e players; the issue is the lack of a general longevity for standard content vs challenge content. It's always been somewhat of a problem, but DT has been very noticeably worse on that front due to the increased amount of challenge content compared to standard content.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

Casual content must always take priority as that is the content any and all players can and will do.

I don't think Dawntrail's done a good job on that front, as most "new" content, both at the lowest level of MSQ and most side content like Pilgrim's Traverse or Occult Crescent, have consistently been pushing difficulty in a failing attempt to train casual players into becoming hardcore players.

Instead it's just lead to a lot of players quitting out of blind frustration.

Quantum is the best example of a failed gimmick. Barely anyone wanted to experiment with the boss's power, instead going straight for maxing it out or not bothering after beating it in the Deep Dungeon itself.

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The main problem is that they start designing content at the Savage level and then tone it down for the Normal mode. When they run out of budget (like Forked Tower), what remains is the harder version that most of the FF14 population will not touch, so it looks worse on their metrics too. We know that most of our sub money doesn't go back into the game, so it becomes almost a spiral of missed expectations as they have an inverted pyramid of priorities.

This trickle-down also affects PvE at the casual level; jobs being changed because the difficult fights would be too hard, with certain lack of movement being an example.

Doesn't help of course that it seems like they've isolated themselves from feedback, something that apparently was so important to them in 2.0 (if we judge by that one presentation slide).

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Originally Posted by SyferU

You are talking about this like every Extreme fight needs the same prog as an Ultimate.
But one thing that is true is Casual players see any type of Inconvenience as a Life shattering event.
Take for example how upset many casuals get when they die in a Dungeon.
It confronts casual players with the reality that sometimes you actually have to try and learn.

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Wow, thanks for clearing up what is going on in every casual's head. You really are a smart one.

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Originally Posted by SyferU

I feel like this is the wrong question. I think the right question would be how to get casual players to engage more with difficult content.

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I doubt rewards are worth the stress. You can’t do hard content without spoiling yourself by watching mechanics on YouTube 47485843744 times first. People in PF are toxic and impatient. Will leave after 1-2 wipes. I’ve also heard people are getting black listed as well because they are a “Dead weight” for the rest of the party. Maybe casuals would join to do harder content if they can prog blind, if people had patience of actually teaching someone instead of kicking them out or leaving etc.

Casual content also sucks because of the reward system. You barely get anything from it. Maybe a minion, orchestration roll or noob gear.

Casual content in this game basically lives of the "just jump in" mentality.
When that isn't given then people will not do the content, even if some people think "it's not so hard".

The question isn't how to get people into harder content but how to make their own content more interesting and live longer because if someone isn't interested in hard content they won't do it, no matter the carrot and let's not pretend like PF is welcoming to newcomers given the whole passport mentality lately.
One idea would be to make the gear there actually useful instead of being redundant the very same day it comes out or to allow dye channels to be unlocked somehow instead of having undyeable gear.

Variant Advanced imo was a good example of giving the more casual players something while the hardcore crowd got it's criterion (instead of two criterions) while FT was the worst example of their priorities in development (or IS in the opposite direction).
The job design as well is an example of Savage upwards first and everything below it be damned as long as the balance is ok. Tanks invalidating casual content for example.

In short, quantity isn't the problem, nor how to get people into harder content.
It's simply important to not treat one side like the unwanted child, no matter if it's the casual crowd with their rewards in normal raids or the hardcore crowd in criterion rewards.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

"i don't like studying or learning my rotation (their words not mine) so because I don't like those things, "casual players" have no content to do... isn't a sound argument" it's reductivze and patronizes players who play casually.

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I'm going to be honest, I play this game to have fun. If they add tools to make the process of learning your rotation actually fun, maybe I'd do it more.

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Originally Posted by SyferU

You mean the metric in favor of casual content since by nature casual content has less longevity, especially with the casual community being against grinding content.

Just wait until Beastmaster comes out, people are gonna lose interest after 1 day and than start posting about how 10 more levels of Blue Mage would have fixed the game instead.

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If your point is that the game doesn't necessarily need more casual friendly pve content pieces—especially seeing how CBU3 struggles to even churn out what we have currently—but casual content pieces that do perform a lot better on shelf life, and I don't necessarily mean by brainless grind potential alone, then agreed.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

100000000%

I've thought this since SHB.. the naming conventions of content basically gaslight people into thinking it's "out of reach" to them... the amount of times I've helped people clear savage and ults and their response is something like "that wasn't too bad" never ceases to amaze me.

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It is really possible. Before I undertook savage for the first time I had already played the game casually for one full expansion. I couldn't tell you if it was the naming scheme on its own though. Could also have been that it was considered "raiding" and the requirements were just intimidating by nature. Knowing people would expect a lot more, being afraid of just sucking at it and looking bad for it, that I think played a lot more to gaslight me into being reluctant than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Variant Advanced imo was a good example of giving the more casual players something while the hardcore crowd got it's criterion (instead of two criterions) while FT was the worst example of their priorities in development (or IS in the opposite direction).

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I completely agree with the rest of your post, but Advanced V&C in my opinion is the perfect example of CBU3 taking a good initiative and completely fucking it up because they have the wrong idea about everything.

If anything the format they picked (boss gauntlet) shows they want people to be funneled into the savage model. Advanced is literally not a dungeon with variant pathing anymore, it's budget criterion, plain and simple. Now, this isn't to say it's not enjoyable for a broader amount of players mind you and I have frankly no clue how well that piece of content has lasted, and what were people's opinions on it beyond "it's nice to have something harder and difficulty seems well tuned".

But to me it's a gigantic disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I completely agree with the rest of your post, but Advanced V&C in my opinion is the perfect example of CBU3 taking a good initiative and completely fucking it up because they have the wrong idea about everything.

If anything the format they picked (boss gauntlet) shows they want people to be funneled into the savage model. Advanced is literally not a dungeon with variant pathing anymore, it's budget criterion, plain and simple. Now, this isn't to say it's not enjoyable for a broader amount of players mind you and I have frankly no clue how well that piece of content has lasted, and what were people's opinions on it beyond "it's nice to have something harder and difficulty seems well tuned".

But to me it's a gigantic disappointment.

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Which is a fair opinion to have.
I don't disagree that it could have been more than just bosses. My point was more in regards to difficulty / jumping in design (which given you only need one other player was great) and reward structure.

For me it checked more boxes than it missed, especially because it showed that fights can be challenging enough without losing fun through frustrating mechanics, especially given that there are no enrages and the body checks are forgiving enough but there.
Simply content you jump in and have fun.
It was basically FT done right in that regard imo.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If your point is that the game doesn't necessarily need more casual friendly pve content pieces—especially seeing how CBU3 struggles to even churn out what we have currently—but casual content pieces that do perform a lot better on shelf life, and I don't necessarily mean by brainless grind potential alone, then agreed.



It is really possible. Before I undertook savage for the first time I had already played the game casually for one full expansion. I couldn't tell you if it was the naming scheme on its own though. Could also have been that it was considered "raiding" and the requirements were just intimidating by nature. Knowing people would expect a lot more, being afraid of just sucking at it and looking bad for it, that I think played a lot more to gaslight me into being reluctant than anything else.



I completely agree with the rest of your post, but Advanced V&C in my opinion is the perfect example of CBU3 taking a good initiative and completely fucking it up because they have the wrong idea about everything.

If anything the format they picked (boss gauntlet) shows they want people to be funneled into the savage model. Advanced is literally not a dungeon with variant pathing anymore, it's budget criterion, plain and simple. Now, this isn't to say it's not enjoyable for a broader amount of players mind you and I have frankly no clue how well that piece of content has lasted, and what were people's opinions on it beyond "it's nice to have something harder and difficulty seems well tuned".

But to me it's a gigantic disappointment.

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I dislike how their new strategy seems to be trying to funnel people into harder content. Harder content isn't for everyone and I frankly disagree anyone can do it.
Jumping from normal difficulty content to high difficulty content is not easy, and that is made even worse by the game's failure to provide ways to make the learning process fun. Almost all ways to learn involve study of outside sources, which is incredibly boring. People who like normal mode content are not guaranteed to even enjoy the rigor that comes with harder content.
Some people might want to do harder content, but frankly Square Enix should allow people to stay in their lane doing lower-difficulty content instead of giving us less and less low-difficulty content just to try and funnel everyone into harder content to save on resources.

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Originally Posted by SyferU

I have done savage and some ultimates in party finder and have never used discord so you should be fine.

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Still sounds like it's not my kinda fun, sorry. Like if I gotta deal with raidplans and cardinal rules or whatever then count me out. Like could I do it? Probably. Do I care to try? Not particularly. I'd rather go spend 1,200 hours in Occult Crescent grinding for a necklace of blood.

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Originally Posted by Gwenkatsu

Wow, thanks for clearing up what is going on in every casual's head. You really are a smart one.

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They're a perfect example of the kind of hardcore player I really don't want to do content with.

They'd be better off forming a static and/or waiting for hardcore-capable players to show up in their PFs then thinking there's some way to force casual players to engage in hardcore content, because it wouldn't matter if I became super-skilled tomorrow, I don't want to be part of this game's raiding culture after seeing the way it behaves.
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Originally Posted by Voidmage

The question isn't how to get people into harder content but how to make their own content more interesting and live longer because if someone isn't interested in hard content they won't do it, no matter the carrot and let's not pretend like PF is welcoming to newcomers given the whole passport mentality lately.

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I never really understood it myself, that in order to do the hardcore content you have to have certain numbers on a third-party website, but to get those numbers you have to... do the content you're being gatekept out of in the first place, so not really sure where they expect those numbers to come from. Prog parties? No, that can't be it, because you still get hat-checked to make sure you're not a "prog liar" or whatever or people still bail the moment any failure occurs because they were stealth-hoping for a clear and not an actual prog.

It reminds me of the days of WoW where people would insist on "linking achievements" to prove you cleared the content already despite the party leader claiming it was a "first-time clear" party for them or their buddies. (IE: You were required to have beaten the content, but not them.)

It's enough to make me wonder how many of the people putting up the passport booth have the numbers themselves and aren't just trying to be carried by people with better numbers than them, especially when most of them are quick to look up others but never seem inclined to volunteer their own data.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

They're a perfect example of the kind of hardcore player I really don't want to do content with.

They'd be better off forming a static and/or waiting for hardcore-capable players to show up in their PFs then thinking there's some way to force casual players to engage in hardcore content, because it wouldn't matter if I became super-skilled tomorrow, I don't want to be part of this game's raiding culture after seeing the way it behaves.
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I never really understood it myself, that in order to do the hardcore content you have to have certain numbers on a third-party website, but to get those numbers you have to... do the content you're being gatekept out of in the first place, so not really sure where they expect those numbers to come from. Prog parties? No, that can't be it, because you still get hat-checked to make sure you're not a "prog liar" or whatever or people still bail the moment any failure occurs because they were stealth-hoping for a clear and not an actual prog.

It reminds me of the days of WoW where people would insist on "linking achievements" to prove you cleared the content already despite the party leader claiming it was a "first-time clear" party for them or their buddies. (IE: You were required to have beaten the content, but not them.)

It's enough to make me wonder how many of the people putting up the passport booth have the numbers themselves and aren't just trying to be carried by people with better numbers than them, especially when most of them are quick to look up others but never seem inclined to volunteer their own data.

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Parsing is literally cheating. It requires third party tools and the modification of your game. Someone brought this up on another thread and frankly I agreed with that take.