You might as well add an official DPS log to the game...

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Originally Posted by TeresaFortell

And how would you explain if someone has the passport but still can't pass he previouts mechanics? Most of the time, these programs simply do the opposite; they gatekeep players. As such, they do not foster a healthy gameplay environment.

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I was referring to the poster as an example, the poster said that they had not gotten to P4, only P2 yet joined a P4 requesting party, tools literally exist to try and combat this kind of action.
Is it a stretch to say "People are prog lying let us try make a system that makes it harder to prog lie" ? That's what these are after all.

I don't like them existing because you cannot absolutely perfectly say that a person reached a prog point with skill, for all you know they may have been corpse dragged to that point or be doing no damage and unless something can 100% for sure say that someone deserves what you are giving then it will end up gate keeping people who are competent yet have been let down by the groups they join.

I just don't like that such a community project, where players contribute their own data voluntarily, is being made into a paid service. On top of ads and sharing data with other companies.
I also don't like that it is by design a standard opt-in. Players who want to be seen should be required to opt-in and make their parses public. But the reality is that this would damage their revenue model and edick comparision between players would get more difficult, so there would be less hype and controversy.
I also don't like that after you opt-outed, they sometimes roll-back the setting after they made an "upgrade", requiring you to opt-out again to keep the setting...

SE should offer their own parses for people who agree to get parsed ingame. But they don't have the balls for it I think.

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Originally Posted by NaoSen

I was referring to the poster as an example, the poster said that they had not gotten to P4, only P2 yet joined a P4 requesting party, tools literally exist to try and combat this kind of action.
Is it a stretch to say "People are prog lying let us try make a system that makes it harder to prog lie" ? That's what these are after all.

I don't like them existing because you cannot absolutely perfectly say that a person reached a prog point with skill, for all you know they may have been corpse dragged to that point or be doing no damage and unless something can 100% for sure say that someone deserves what you are giving then it will end up gate keeping people who are competent yet have been let down by the groups they join.

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My biggest problem with that tool is that by filtering out prog liars (which I can understand), you are also punishing those who have simply privated their data.
In the past you could simply join and do your thing. Now, you are thrown into the same group as prog liars, simply because you don't want your data to drift around on the internet.
I know that the excuse from some will be that "if you have nothing to hide" or "no one cares about your online character" but my opinion is that the less websites have even such data of mine the better and I absolutely do not trust such a side. Even now and even on this forum you have people looking at tomestone just to counter the opinion of someone regarding game design.
And even if not, you shouldn't be punished for wanting to be more private.

Imo that entire tool was fine in the past when it was used for self improvement and checking balancing but now it get's abused, just like people predicted a parser would be. The end result will be either a raider version of Mare, more and more people leaving PF raiding or the devs chickening out and designing future raids with such tools in mind (ie, fights designed around body checks again, you can't be zombied through).

What the biggest idiots don't understand is that the line will get moved further and further down.
First it will be Savage, then it will be Ex and next things like Deep Dungeons, so casual content. The end result being that the animosity between raiders and the rest of the community will grow even further and people think even the normal raiders are elitists.

Edit:
And for the topic:
An ingame parse would be useless at this point and too late. Just like the strategy board, people would simply continue their year long build own database which would always be more accurate.
The devs would be simply way too late.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

Even in games with non-scripted fights, damage meters exist... at least in the one I played, meter was extremely common and people were even kicked out due to their damage in common dailies.

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Yes, but progression points are inherently attached to linear scripted fights, and so are prog liars / tomestone.
fflogs and dps meters have been in the game since forever and while I have no love for some of their excesses, they haven't proven to that degree of toxicity as far as I experienced.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

I just don't like that such a community project, where players contribute their own data voluntarily, is being made into a paid service. On top of ads and sharing data with other companies.
I also don't like that it is by design a standard opt-in. Players who want to be seen should be required to opt-in and make their parses public. But the reality is that this would damage their revenue model and edick comparision between players would get more difficult, so there would be less hype and controversy.
I also don't like that after you opt-outed, they sometimes roll-back the setting after they made an "upgrade", requiring you to opt-out again to keep the setting...

SE should offer their own parses for people who agree to get parsed ingame. But they don't have the balls for it I think.

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I completely agree. I feel those websites are inherently predatory in nature and are harming the game not only by getting access to packet sniffed data (which is not TOS compliant), but by also aggregating data without any consent that can be then used by anyone to grief unsuspecting players, as witnessed again and again and again and again...

Quite telling that SE would go all the way to shut down a website/program harming the mogstation, but those two? Oh no, they won't.
And to be frank, even if they did, people would just replicate branches and go underground, as seen with the successors of Mare.

This is why usually the better solution is to take over control of such tools in order to offer official, curated versions.

the raids already have those tools in mind, lots of fights have very obvious damage checks for exampe p8s when it was current in phase 1

It’s hilarious to me that they literally design every role, every job, every encounter with one sole metric in mind (dps output), then offer absolutely no ‘legitimate’ way to actually see that one singular metric the entirety of the game checks. Lol.

And honestly the whole ‘let’s secretly allow these specific third party programs while claiming we don’t, but then we design every job and encounter specifically around the metrics that these third party programs display’ just seems incredibly dumb to me to be frank. Over just releasing their own that they can literally curate or restrict in any shape or form they see fit. But Naa, let’s just keep everyone relying on specific programs that ‘are-allowed-but-totally-aren’t’. What is they call it, an open secret?

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Between roles, maybe. Between jobs within a role? Absolutely not. rDPS and some cDPS seem to fall further and further behind with every patch.



PF runners care. Who affect the play of others by denying them access to groups using metrics that are unavailable to them. It's only fair to have an official metric for these things.

I also care. It's unfair to me to have to suffer through instances with people who somehow made it 100 levels without learning how to play this game, or their class. If we had the ability to point out these issues and bid people to correct them, as a Mentor I gladly would. But I can't, because it's against the rules, and we have no official tools to do so.

So I don't.

So they play obliviously while others suffer as a result.

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Right, so how does an in game parser help with that? Your issue is you want a reason to bully people. Unfortunately this is a story based game, a lot of players are here for the story and aren't actually good at the game. That's just a trade off you have to accept. You're free to create your own premades to avoid them.

Just because there would be an in game parser doesn't mean they would care. It's not their job to care, it's a game and they are going to enjoy it.

Also this patch has extremely good balancing outside of Reaper. I really don't know what you are talking about. The Tanks and Healers are well balanced and DPS are all pretty close too. I certainly hope you are not trying to compare Phys Ranged to Caster or BLM/PCT to SMN/RDM.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

It's unfair to me to have to suffer through instances with people who somehow made it 100 levels without learning how to play this game, or their class. If we had the ability to point out these issues and bid people to correct them, as a Mentor I gladly would. But I can't, because it's against the rules, and we have no official tools to do so.

So I don't.

So they play obliviously while others suffer as a result.

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Being realistic here, if anyone has gotten through 100 levels and cannot play their class fundamentally or the fundamentals of encounter mechanics (e.g., standing in fire all encounter) then I am sorry but in all likelihood those same players probably simply don't care and no amount of you screaming into the void about accountability is going to change that fact.

SE tried solving one of these problems silently already by lowering the skill floor and laziness still persisted. They would still persist even if SE gave you the tools, and gave you the green light to act as ruthless as possible

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

If the devs don't want this sort of "toxic" raiding environment, then they should stop designing fights in a way that encourages it. When every mechanic is a body check and requires perfect execution from all 8 players in order to clear the fight - when seven players can do everything perfectly and still get punished because of one player messing up - gatekeeping becomes a necessity for anyone who values their time and health.

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Originally Posted by zarahleo

I joined a practice party the other day for m9s, I had already been to enrage multi times on that character with friends, I had already cleared m9s on an alt too, we dont use logging mods.

The leader of the party kicked us because tomestone said only 50% progress, he admitted this. I said "you do realise not every run is logged right?" He said "weak excuse, everyone logs".

The whole thing is toxic crap.
People who think like this need banned forever, the game would only get better by doing so.

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Sorry, but the party leader was right to be wary here. They have no way of verifying that you're telling the truth, and have probably had their time wasted by prog liars before. You might just need to start logging.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

If the devs don't want this sort of "toxic" raiding environment, then they should stop designing fights in a way that encourages it. When every mechanic is a body check and requires perfect execution from all 8 players in order to clear the fight - when seven players can do everything perfectly and still get punished because of one player messing up - gatekeeping becomes a necessity for anyone who values their time and health.



Sorry, but the party leader was right to be wary here. They have no way of verifying that you're telling the truth, and have probably had their time wasted by prog liars before. You might just need to start logging.

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best take i have seen so far tbh

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Originally Posted by Connor

It’s hilarious to me that they literally design every role, every job, every encounter with one sole metric in mind (dps output), then offer absolutely no ‘legitimate’ way to actually see that one singular metric the entirety of the game checks. Lol.

And honestly the whole ‘let’s secretly allow these specific third party programs while claiming we don’t, but then we design every job and encounter specifically around the metrics that these third party programs display’ just seems incredibly dumb to me to be frank. Over just releasing their own that they can literally curate or restrict in any shape or form they see fit. But Naa, let’s just keep everyone relying on specific programs that ‘are-allowed-but-totally-aren’t’. What is they call it, an open secret?

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This also results in incredibly stupid discussions in JP where "Oh I sure don't know where you're getting these statistics from but since W1st raiders love AST no matter how much they buff WHM it clearly means WHM needs a raid buff". It's asinine.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Right, so how does an in game parser help with that? Your issue is you want a reason to bully people.

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Bro is ASSUMING in my replies right now.

I was once running Eden raids with guildies and randoms in a PF. One night, we got a Bard who would fire off LB1 every time it was available. After the first wipe, we politely asked him to stop. He was confused and asked why, since it seemed better to him to use LB more often. We told him that it's better value to use LB3 when it's available, especially since a healer could use it in an emergency. He stopped using LB1 every time, and because of that we were able to clear after a clutch healer LB3.

Imagine how many aspects of gameplay there are where a simple adjustment could be the difference between clearing and wiping, but aren't as visible as a LB?

Sorry you're sour, but not every critical interaction is 'bullying' or 'rude'.

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Originally Posted by Asako

You're free to create your own premades to avoid them.

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The above story was one of my premades.

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Originally Posted by Asako

I certainly hope you are not trying to compare Phys Ranged to Caster or BLM/PCT to SMN/RDM.

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Am... am I wrong to compare DPS with DPS? Am I missing something?

Or are you in support of the DPS tax that I thought was universally hated?

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Being realistic here, if anyone has gotten through 100 levels and cannot play their class fundamentally or the fundamentals of encounter mechanics (e.g., standing in fire all encounter) then I am sorry but in all likelihood those same players probably simply don't care and no amount of you screaming into the void about accountability is going to change that fact.

SE tried solving one of these problems silently already by lowering the skill floor and laziness still persisted. They would still persist even if SE gave you the tools, and gave you the green light to act as ruthless as possible

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Personally this is a big problem I have with making so much content solo-able in what is supposed to be an MMO. So many potential filters bypassed, so once it's time to pull up one's bootstraps and lock in, they have no idea what's going on. No wonder there are so many requests to make more content easier and solo-able.

Also, in what world would lowering the skill floor fix laziness anyway? If anything, it would give people the opportunity to be even lazier.

The only way to get people to stop being lazy is incentive, be it a loot incentive or a not-getting-kicked incentive. Another thing in the long list of meta game dev things that WoW learned in the womb but FFXIV still has yet to get a handle on.

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Originally Posted by Doki

Even without the official one, enough people:
1. Use fflogs \ Tomestone plugins
2. Your data is uploaded from THIER add-on without you even knowing
3. You join a PF, and are quickly removed without a word at all after they look you up with those tools.

You CAN remove yourself from both sites tracking via lodestone profile comments, but that shouldn't even be necessary. Also removing them will hide your profile, which again many snobbish people will just consider the same as showing an unfavorable parse.

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Report that PF then. That IS known harassment and against the TOS.

PS: If I ever find out they are doing that, my DPS becomes zero and they know it. I'll be filing the report during the dungeon/trial at that point.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

If the devs don't want this sort of "toxic" raiding environment, then they should stop designing fights in a way that encourages it. When every mechanic is a body check and requires perfect execution from all 8 players in order to clear the fight - when seven players can do everything perfectly and still get punished because of one player messing up - gatekeeping becomes a necessity for anyone who values their time and health.



Sorry, but the party leader was right to be wary here. They have no way of verifying that you're telling the truth, and have probably had their time wasted by prog liars before. You might just need to start logging.

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This is /endthread right here. Don't design content that depends on everyone performing and not give players the tool to help ensure that performance.

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Originally Posted by zarahleo

I joined a practice party the other day for m9s, I had already been to enrage multi times on that character with friends, I had already cleared m9s on an alt too, we dont use logging mods.

The leader of the party kicked us because tomestone said only 50% progress, he admitted this. I said "you do realise not every run is logged right?" He said "weak excuse, everyone logs".

The whole thing is toxic crap.
People who think like this need banned forever, the game would only get better by doing so.

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This is such an interesting response, because a more effective, in-game way to demonstrate your progress would have avoided this situation entirely.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

As long DPS log/meter is being used for toxicity then i always say BIG NO to DPS log/meter and it dosen't matter if the DPS log/meter is being made as private either when there will always be players who demands you to tell them your DPS numbers and if you won't say your DPS numbers then they instantly kick you out from the party.

And these DPS log/meter mods is one of the reasons why i simply refuse to do any endgame content when i simply don't want deal with toxicity.

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DPS meter could be good if it showed only YOUR dps. Maybe also % of how it relates to people who cleared this content.
Keyword: it only shows YOUR stuff. Others stuff should not be visible and should not be extractable by 3rd party tools either.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Personally this is a big problem I have with making so much content solo-able in what is supposed to be an MMO. So many potential filters bypassed, so once it's time to pull up one's bootstraps and lock in, they have no idea what's going on. No wonder there are so many requests to make more content easier and solo-able.

Also, in what world would lowering the skill floor fix laziness anyway? If anything, it would give people the opportunity to be even lazier.

The only way to get people to stop being lazy is incentive, be it a loot incentive or a not-getting-kicked incentive. Another thing in the long list of meta game dev things that WoW learned in the womb but FFXIV still has yet to get a handle on.

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IMO, the problem isn't whether it's solo-able or not, especially in the context of filtering out people, and to be honest, this game these days barely constitutes an MMO from the very fundamental design that the game actually follows... I think adding a solo element can be beneficial. Most people wouldn't even care about this MMO-factor if the game actually did a good job at being one in the first place.

The lower a skill floor, the easier something is to learn.. The easier something is to learn the more likely they are to actually engage... It's the same principle they followed when they completely nuked the crafting system. At least when going by your principle of them reaching level 100 and being so fundamentally bad

Depending on the content... They are either just not going to actually care about it (e.g., ignorance), or they are simply just going to move on and determine that the content is not for them, or conclude that the issue is not them, but either the content, or the other people in that content. If people had only gone through 30 hours, then I would feel differently. But after hundreds of hours..

Like, we are not in a game where resources are barren and rare to find. If someone cares, they are already going to have a modicum of fundamental understanding, if they don't already have that.. Then...

XIV and WoW have cultivated two entirely different mentalities, really. It's not something they will ever get a handle on, I don't think.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Personally this is a big problem I have with making so much content solo-able in what is supposed to be an MMO. So many potential filters bypassed, so once it's time to pull up one's bootstraps and lock in, they have no idea what's going on. No wonder there are so many requests to make more content easier and solo-able.

Also, in what world would lowering the skill floor fix laziness anyway? If anything, it would give people the opportunity to be even lazier.

The only way to get people to stop being lazy is incentive, be it a loot incentive or a not-getting-kicked incentive. Another thing in the long list of meta game dev things that WoW learned in the womb but FFXIV still has yet to get a handle on.

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You're not bullying -- you want people removed. The only "incentive" that gets people off their ass is effectively being "killed" if they don't.

ah the classic fflogs/parsing topic. buddy heres the reality. most players are... awful. 100% straight up some of the worst "gamers" i've ever seen. most would rather sit around and goon with mods instead of trying to improve. you know it. i know it. nobody wants to admit it though. if you've ever tried to pug anything beyond an expert roulette or even an occasional EX trial, you would know firsthand. people lie. people say they're pressing buttons (they aren't). people say they're at a certain prog point (they aren't). so i suppose sure if you wanna really drive another nail into this games coffin, go for it. otherwise leave things as they are cause right now its "dont ask dont tell" and it would only get worse (pugs vs statics) with an official parser.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

You're not bullying -- you want people removed.

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Sure, if that's how you want to put it.

I've said the same thing in the past, and I stand by it: Certain games are made for certain people, and that's okay. The only games that try to be made for everyone are either slop, or dead.

People who don't care to improve probably shouldn't be running content in an MMO game, where their performance directly affects how much other people enjoy the game.

In a normal MMO, player-to-player friction is usually the filter that makes people realize either "that was fun! when's the next one?", or "wait a minute, I hate MMOs!".

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Sure, if that's how you want to put it.

I've said the same thing in the past, and I stand by it: Certain games are made for certain people, and that's okay. The only games that try to be made for everyone are either slop, or dead.

People who don't care to improve probably shouldn't be running content in an MMO game, where their performance directly affects how much other people enjoy the game.

In a normal MMO, player-to-player friction is usually the filter that makes people realize either "that was fun! when's the next one?", or "wait a minute, I hate MMOs!".

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So you want us gone. Just freaking admit it and be done with it. And then report us for Obstruction of your game.

Seeing what FFLogs and Tomestone are doing to the raiding community, I'd rather not have an official DPS parser in the game. Simply put: it starts out in Savage and eventually it'll bleed out into regular content like the bad stench of a dumpster because this community cannot help itself.

Everything YoshiP did not want to happen with an official parser is already happening with the unofficial ones. Almost as if the man had a point with his concerns that everyone thoroughly ignored.

Besides, those websites already have a big database so users wouldn't switch off to the official version regardless.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

If the devs don't want this sort of "toxic" raiding environment, then they should stop designing fights in a way that encourages it. When every mechanic is a body check and requires perfect execution from all 8 players in order to clear the fight - when seven players can do everything perfectly and still get punished because of one player messing up - gatekeeping becomes a necessity for anyone who values their time and health.



Sorry, but the party leader was right to be wary here. They have no way of verifying that you're telling the truth, and have probably had their time wasted by prog liars before. You might just need to start logging.

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I get the point of adding a dmg log, but I don't see how showing people where one's prog point is going to help with anything. A passport simply doesn't prove infallibly that one could do all prior mechanics. Also, the onus should never be on the player to provide that dmg data to the public, as it is still against the terms of service to do so.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

So you want us gone. Just freaking admit it and be done with it. And then report us for Obstruction of your game.

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I don't think you know what 'obstruction of play' actually means.

The examples provided on the SE support website of 'obstruction of play' are:

1. Spamming (Irrelevant)
2. Obstructing transit/progress (As in moving about the open world, so, irrelevant)
3. Obstructing the activities of others (As in using abilities like Rescue to impact others negatively, not just playing badly, so not reportable in this context)
4. Unjustified usage of Vote Dismiss (Irrelevant)
5. Intentional leaving or disconnection (Irrelevant)
6. Ranking manipulation, or manipulating a match outcome (PvP only, so irrelevant)
7. Aiding the enemy, or being uncooperative or lethargic in combat (Explained as 'not performing the gameplay required of the situation'; bad play is still play, so not reportable in this context)
8. Advertising offers to help clear content in PF (Irrelevant)
9. Solicitations in PF outside its intended use (Irrelevant)
10. Purchasing land to resell it (Irrelevant)
11. MPKing (Irrelevant)
12. Fraud (Irrelevant)
13. Impersonation (Irrelevant)

EDIT: And to answer your question, here's a question: if you don't want to play an MMO, then why are you playing an MMO?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I have never experienced this in a dungeon... I think you are exaggerating.

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Maybe not parser related per say, but I HAVE been kicked from normal content for failing/dying too much on fights I was literally doing for the first time ever (Ivalice Raids, Hades, Warrior of Light).

Contrary to popular belief, some people DO get really mad at people for not being perfect at "brain dead" content and they bring their "prog liar" mentality with them outside of hardcore content. They don't care one bit if you've literally never seen the fight before, that you're still a sprout by the game's reckoning, you're still "wasting their time" and they would rather see you gone and replaced with someone else (and they won't have to wait long when you're just a DPS anyway).

This is why I'd rather most normal content (or at least mandatory MSQ stuff) of the game was doable with NPCs, because then I can't ruin other people's experiences and they can't ruin mine, but for some reason people insist we all need to play together despite how much most of us actually don't want to while finding every reason to exclude others including pointing fingers and kicking the moment anything goes wrong regardless of the content.
+++

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Even now and even on this forum you have people looking at tomestone just to counter the opinion of someone regarding game design.

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I do fully expect someone to tell me my opinion doesn't matter because I haven't cleared something like Puppet's Bunker or all of (Normal) Eden.

Or how after some people here put out so much mockery and hostility they'll have the gall to ask "why are you playing an MMO if you don't want to play with other people?" completely oblivious to the fact that it's because of people like them being so damn common that makes me want to keep to myself. I don't WANT to "git gud" if THAT'S who I'm expected to try and appease.

dunno if anyone's mentioned it but it is pretty noteworthy this tier specifically does have much tighter dps checks because they tuned it with the extra time we got to gear up in mind, and that means we also hit the ceiling gearing can carry us sooner, so I'd suspect it's not going to get that much easier through the rest of the expansion.

Also I feel the prog lying issue is more or less a result of EW extremes+ hard walling parties for missing a mechanic, and since Arcadion gives more room to recover from mistakes, that lets parties see later points of fights before they're actually ready for it.
EW's style wasn't good either (especially for healers?) so I'm not sure what the right solution is besides "players adjust", or maybe at least make breaking the Stone, Sky, Sea dummy with the job they're using a requirement to enter.

The biggest problem with these logging websites is not even that they are promoting usage of 3rd party tos-breaking programs, and not that they harvest our data without our agreement, and not that they don't provide a way to completely opt out of data collection, and even not that they are promoting toxicity.
The biggest issue is that they are controller by a third party, non-SE-related entity.

Admins of these logging websites get to essentially dictate how the raid is played. What DPS counts and what doesn't; they can exclude certain parts of the battle from being counted, they can exclude certain buffs from being counted. They can ban someone off their website for any reason or without it and their raiding experience is basically over, and vise versa, they can make someones logs artificially inflated. Third party entity controlling part of the game is the problem.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

So you want us gone. Just freaking admit it and be done with it. And then report us for Obstruction of your game.

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They will not win, brother. The community has really devolved away from having fun and enjoying yourself, and not worrying about something as silly as a "clear" in a video game. Not everyone plays the game "to improve," I just play for fun, not to become an NHL player. Also, if my performance affects someone else, that's their problem, not mine. The moment they add a restriction that prevents me joining party finders based on "prog," then I am going to unsub on one of my accounts, forever.

Given that the general community has shown that they can't even use the tool responsibly, I don't think the dev team should even think about making an official version of it.

Also "passport checking" isn't as great as people seem to think. Imagine someone setting up a late mechanic prog point like Insane Air 2 in M10S, they check and see someone has that prog point, but they don't actually check further and see that that person may have seen Insane Air 2 but they were dead for it and died 5 times before it too.

this thread is gold

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Making DPS log/meter where you can only see your own DPS numbers dosen't matter when there will always be players who demands you to tell your DPS numbers and if you don't then they instantly kick you out from the party.

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Well in this case you can counteract it by just lying to them
In addition this is TOS violation and you can report'em

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Making DPS log/meter where you can only see your own DPS numbers dosen't matter when there will always be players who demands you to tell your DPS numbers and if you don't then they instantly kick you out from the party.

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Tell them if they want to keep it up, it's harassment and the DPS will go to zero while you report them in-duty.

Then they either shut up and accept your DPS or kick you and then you can report them for the kick on top of everything else.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

I don't think you know what 'obstruction of play' actually means.

The examples provided on the SE support website of 'obstruction of play' are:

Obstructing transit/progress (As in moving about the open world, so, irrelevant)

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Obstruction of progress would be one charge. You are basically then claiming that lesser players, especially when they lie about their progression, obstruct your progress in the game and content, so that's one. That's not just open-world physical obstruction.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Obstructing the activities of others (As in using abilities like Rescue to impact others negatively, not just playing badly, so not reportable in this context)

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Will the GM enforce the parenthetical or actually the rule as stated, which could well apply if a "lesser player" is holding you back, hence obstructing your activities to impact you negatively, whether that is their intention or not?

That's two.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

[*] Fraud (Irrelevant)

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And that's a third one. Flagrant misrepresentation of your skill to actually clear the content.

So I gave you three different charges: Obstruction of specifically _progress_, obstruction of the activities of others, and fraud.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

EDIT: And to answer your question, here's a question: if you don't want to play an MMO, then why are you playing an MMO?

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You do not want the answer to that question.

kinda crazy to have started the game less than a month ago and already having almost 100 comments on the forum

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Square Enix really should SUE FFlogs and tomestone, and shut them down, because that is infuriating (I was too removed from a group). The other day I was trying to join a FRU party and they immediately questioned me, because I hadn't hit THEIR prog point. Pfft, like, how hard can going from p2 to p4 really be? I'm a quick learner, just give me a chance. They then proceeded to rudely remove me after going "ermm, no."

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If someone join my PF for Ultimate at P4 prog with only P2 exp - instant kick. Like come on, respect people time. 7 People not gonna waste our time for 1 person who cant join P2 prog

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Originally Posted by Ashpd

If someone join my PF for Ultimate at P4 prog with only P2 exp - instant kick. Like come on, respect people time. 7 People not gonna waste our time for 1 person who cant join P2 prog

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Your party that's on enrage is obligated to teach me phase 1, or I'll go to the forums and make vague posts about toxic people kicking me unfairly.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

Obstruction of progress would be one charge. You are basically then claiming that lesser players, especially when they lie about their progression, obstruct your progress in the game and content, so that's one. That's not just open-world physical obstruction.

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The longer explanation for 'obstruction of progress' is that it 'refers to any kind of behavior which obstructs the gameplay progress of others, such as intentionally standing directly on top of a key NPC for an extended period of time, or forming a blockade at a trafficked passage or entrance.'

The examples given make it pretty clearly intended to be active, purposeful, meta obstruction. Not playing badly.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

Will the GM enforce the parenthetical or actually the rule as stated, which could well apply if a "lesser player" is holding you back, hence obstructing your activities to impact you negatively, whether that is their intention or not?

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Again, this rule targets meta obstructions, such as: 'initiating trades with a player who is casting teleport to interrupt the teleportation', 'joining or recruiting for a party in Party Finder and immediately leaving/disbanding once the party has been formed', 'attempting to impede a player's ability to use their Mog Letter Box by sending numerous unwanted items or letters', and 'repeatedly sending friend requests, Linkshell invites, or party invitations to a player even after being denied'.

You would know this if you bothered to look.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

And that's a third one. Flagrant misrepresentation of your skill to actually clear the content.

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'"Fraud" is an act of deception intended to deprive a player of their full enjoyment of the game or a player's property. Fraud occurs most often as a result of breaching in-game agreements between players regarding trading, loot, or betting.'

If, when joining my group, did you intend to brick the PF and annoy everyone with your lack of skill? Did you think we had no chance of clearing as a result of your presence? No? Then it's not reportable.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

So I gave you three different charges: Obstruction of specifically _progress_, obstruction of the activities of others, and fraud.

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You gave me three pieces of evidence that you're not pursuing this conversation in good faith.

I will, in return, give you a piece of evidence that SE is much more likely to side with any low-skill player in a report: the 'Expressions that compel a playing style' restriction under 'Offensive expression'.

It helps to read this stuff, sometimes.

Being bad at the game is not a reportable offense. Purposefully throwing encounters is.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

You do not want the answer to that question.

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I do, that's why I asked. Funny how the English language works like that.

'dude you don't wanna know... oh the horror...' ahh post

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

The longer explanation for 'obstruction of progress' is that it 'refers to any kind of behavior which obstructs the gameplay progress of others, such as intentionally standing directly on top of a key NPC for an extended period of time, or forming a blockade at a trafficked passage or entrance.'

The examples given make it pretty clearly intended to be active, purposeful, meta obstruction. Not playing badly.



Again, this rule targets meta obstructions, such as: 'initiating trades with a player who is casting teleport to interrupt the teleportation', 'joining or recruiting for a party in Party Finder and immediately leaving/disbanding once the party has been formed', 'attempting to impede a player's ability to use their Mog Letter Box by sending numerous unwanted items or letters', and 'repeatedly sending friend requests, Linkshell invites, or party invitations to a player even after being denied'.

You would know this if you bothered to look.



'"Fraud" is an act of deception intended to deprive a player of their full enjoyment of the game or a player's property. Fraud occurs most often as a result of breaching in-game agreements between players regarding trading, loot, or betting.'

If, when joining my group, did you intend to brick the PF and annoy everyone with your lack of skill? Did you think we had no chance of clearing as a result of your presence? No? Then it's not reportable.



You gave me three pieces of evidence that you're not pursuing this conversation in good faith.

I will, in return, give you a piece of evidence that SE is much more likely to side with any low-skill player in a report: the 'Expressions that compel a playing style' restriction under 'Offensive expression'.

It helps to read this stuff, sometimes.

Being bad at the game is not a reportable offense. Purposefully throwing encounters is.



I do, that's why I asked. Funny how the English language works like that.

'dude you don't wanna know... oh the horror...' ahh post

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this guy you're replying too has to be trolling

They should, unless they remove enrages from savage/extremes, there needs to be a way to check whats causing enrage to be hit.

I'm sorry but there's no way you're clearing when a samurai is doing less damage than the healers.

Learn your rotation then come back to PF

There are already DPS meters in the game. It's called the battle log. All you need to do it add it up.

If someone doesn't meet your expectations in your own party you are free to tell them and then kick them, it's your party, then you can just black list them and move on. Who cares?