I think FFXIV should be more political actually

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

You must be truly a big fan of it when you keep recommending it.

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Of course I am, who in their right mind would hate Tetris.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

The political element of Dawntrail is constantly in your face so I do not know how you missed it. The political tension of Dawntrail is a character named Wuk Lamat.

And please do not confuse this as commentary on the voice actress. Its not.

My point being, FFXIV does not need to be more political. It just needs to be good. We do not need to be patronized like we did not understand class disparity in Heavenward. Players are not stupid and this constant reminder the game is political is unnecessary.

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The right of succession? The way she says "I cant put my nose into the business of other nations, it would cause problems" but does so anyway without any consequences or anyone caring? Aside from that one small scene with the fake Sphene 2.0 and even then nobody was watching or probably wouldve cared if she took as a shot at a hologram.
Politics are apart of worldbuilding, its how every nation in Hydaelyn functions.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Tural is political. Its about who can smile more. Its about who can be the most peaceful. Did you even play it?

I see politics all over DT. It's just bad.

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I recommend some Tetris to you as well.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

So you suggest Tetris when people do not think the story needs politics at all and also when people feel it has politics? Perplexing. It appears what you want is for people to agree to some kind of specific agenda you have. Not interested. DT is very political, just like all other expansions and the other IP mentioned. Any other claim is excuse making.

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No, it's just a good game, I think you would benefit from playing it. I think everyone should play Tetris and return their game minds to factory settings.

The politics of Dawntrail failed because there was so little tension and the writing never attempted to show sides and motivations for the three children in the Right. All three were "I want to do what's best for my people" but it was status quo (Wuk Lamat), innovation (Koana), or expansion (Zoraal Ja). All three were actually picking up where their dad left off in some way.

I still just sit and look at DT wondering if we had the option to pick one ourselves, even if the winners were always Koana and Wuk Lamat in the end, with Zoraal Ja still taking over Alexandria as he did.

Zoraal Ja being so underbaked is such a shame. Ugh. Understanding the goals of each leader... Maybe Wuk being so naive would have been a more interesting take if we actually felt encouraged to pick her pure desire for peace next to an industrial revolution or risk of war.


Bleh.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

The right of succession? The way she says "I cant put my nose into the business of other nations, it would cause problems" but does so anyway without any consequences or anyone caring? Aside from that one small scene with the fake Sphene 2.0 and even then nobody was watching or probably wouldve cared if she took as a shot at a hologram.
Politics are apart of worldbuilding, its how every nation in Hydaelyn functions.

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I think the lack of consequences is one of the biggest parts of why Dawntrail came up short. Now, I'm not one of those people who are clamoring to have characters die (when that happens in a lot of stories, it's just a lazy shorthand for emotional investment) but I do think that characters having to deal with the fallout of their bad choices would make the story much more believable. Remember Alphinaud and the Crystal Braves?

The other problem is that we seem to never learn from said bad choices and their consequences. I hate that the game makes my WoL an idiot. Why in the world would I trust Sphene? She couldn't be more obvious if she held a giant neon "I'm the villain" sign. Why did we just stand by and watch the duel go down the way it did when Zoraal Ja was obviously cheating? Like...you know it's bad when Alisae of all people is the voice of reason.

Whether or not we need more 'politics' in our MSQ, I do hope the writer will learn to not disrespect the established world of FFXIV in ARR-ShB/EW. Grounding us to a reality to some degree makes the world of FFXIV a believable story. I.e. can you actually believe that telling the moblin to stop kidnapping because 'happy workers do better job' literally works? Why would they? lol. But according to writer... that's how it's supposed to go... so there they go. NGL that sounded pretty insensitive (try that IRL? lmao), and it's just one from many issues. Remember when lofty ambitions taught Alphi the Crystal Braves? Remember when Aymeric was stabbed despite his noble goals and good intentions? Remember how the damage that Yotsuyu and Fordola has caused does not necessarily 'forgotten' or healed from a simple apology, punishment, and or amnesia?

While I personally enjoyed 7.2 - 7.3 more, both of these patches still suffers from narrative issues inherited from post-EW to 7.0.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I think the lack of consequences is one of the biggest parts of why Dawntrail came up short. Now, I'm not one of those people who are clamoring to have characters die (when that happens in a lot of stories, it's just a lazy shorthand for emotional investment) but I do think that characters having to deal with the fallout of their bad choices would make the story much more believable. Remember Alphinaud and the Crystal Braves?

The other problem is that we seem to never learn from said bad choices and their consequences. I hate that the game makes my WoL an idiot. Why in the world would I trust Sphene? She couldn't be more obvious if she held a giant neon "I'm the villain" sign. Why did we just stand by and watch the duel go down the way it did when Zoraal Ja was obviously cheating? Like...you know it's bad when Alisae of all people is the voice of reason.

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Everyone with half a braincell should be offended on how much like a child the story of Dawntrail treats its readers. If the whole game was childish and the same level of writing, sure? But after some of the last expansions, Dawntrail felt like a completely different universe.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Bird people were just birdbrains who FORGOT their culture

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Truth. I was incredibly offended with how my people and our beautiful culture was portrayed in-game. Squeenix needs to do better.

There appears to be agreement that there are politics in DawnTrail but a lack of tension or a lack of consequences which is different from saying it's not political at all. DawnTrail is certainly a product of its time and there is such a thing as political idealism among many other political things that are more subtle including the main character.

I'm not going to write up an essay about it although I easily could but I'm just pointing out that the name of the topic is wrong, Dawntrail arguably has more politics in it than Shadowbringers which is one of the most popular expansions and really only has political conflict in one city. If developers are actually reading feedback they should read it in specificity and not go by the headline. We absolutely do not need more politics in the game.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

While I personally enjoyed 7.2 - 7.3 more, both of these patches still suffers from narrative issues inherited from post-EW to 7.0.

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Disagree with this. The patches failed to live up to the potential created by 7.0. Despite its fallings the core DT expansion dealt with political concepts in a more mature way than the patches so far. 7.3 was particularly guilty of flattening societal experiences and devolving the game world into a simpler, more convenient political landscape.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Why in the world would I trust Sphene? She couldn't be more obvious if she held a giant neon "I'm the villain" sign.

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when alexandria attacked tuliyollal sphene was right there. we saw her and yet we didnt say anything to anyone. not even when we met her.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Disagree with this. The patches failed to live up to the potential created by 7.0. Despite its fallings the core DT expansion dealt with political concepts in a more mature way than the patches so far. 7.3 was particularly guilty of flattening societal experiences and devolving the game world into a simpler, more convenient political landscape.

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huh DT is literally political wanna know why?



YOU CHOOSE THE NEW PRESIDENT! like legit we put our nose not only in politics but literally into a election -_- and when one didn't get pick he want into a other place conquer it then declare war with the queen on the other because he couldn't be the president -_-


Like it's the full DT expension then you are in patch 7.1 to 7.3 try to bring back the original queen into power to help people and everyone find out >~>

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

huh DT is literally political wanna know why?



YOU CHOOSE THE NEW PRESIDENT! like legit we put our nose not only in politics but literally into a election -_- and when one didn't get pick he want into a other place conquer it then declare war with the queen on the other because he couldn't be the president -_-


Like it's the full DT expension then you are in patch 7.1 to 7.3 try to bring back the original queen into power to help people and everyone find out >~>

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I never said DT isn't political. Did you quote the wrong person?

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I never said DT isn't political. Did you quote the wrong person?

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probably yes I was paying half attention xx)

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Disagree with this. The patches failed to live up to the potential created by 7.0. Despite its fallings the core DT expansion dealt with political concepts in a more mature way than the patches so far. 7.3 was particularly guilty of flattening societal experiences and devolving the game world into a simpler, more convenient political landscape.

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I'm not even gonna disagree. But DT flipping the script from the super weak political tension, weird regulator lore, and hyper fixation on a flat character the writer is determined to make us love, to introducing Calyx and and real Sphene and going all in for the JRPG bombast and vastly reducing the former ideas was such a refreshing change of pace. Absolutely guilty pleasure for me, but it's starting to feel like covering up a bad taste with pure sugar.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I'm not even gonna disagree. But DT flipping the script from the super weak political tension, weird regulator lore, and hyper fixation on a flat character the writer is determined to make us love, to introducing Calyx and and real Sphene and going all in for the JRPG bombast and vastly reducing the former ideas was such a refreshing change of pace. Absolutely guilty pleasure for me, but it's starting to feel like covering up a bad taste with pure sugar.

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don't forget the scion feeling like exposition dump to and nothing else really none of them felt... well themself

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

huh DT is literally political wanna know why?



YOU CHOOSE THE NEW PRESIDENT! like legit we put our nose not only in politics but literally into a election -_- and when one didn't get pick he want into a other place conquer it then declare war with the queen on the other because he couldn't be the president -_-


Like it's the full DT expension then you are in patch 7.1 to 7.3 try to bring back the original queen into power to help people and everyone find out >~>

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What people are asking for is political INTRIGUE and STAKES.

I actually want important story characters to die epically. I hate if they get resurrected. Can Raubahn not split some more Lalas in half? Good times.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Bakool Ja Ja's unearned sudden 180 is just another one of those really "miss the mark" moments of Dawntrail writing, where they are literally asking you to act dumb and shut out all information you've been given so far and just trust them that he is good now, because the music and plot says so. It's really really reaaaaally bad writing. Like compare that to Fordola and how they handled her.

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I think the main difference between them was that Fordola went to jail, and when she was given a chance to redeem herself, she was still under tight watch and faced judgement. It's like everyone forgot Bakool Ja Ja was involved in literal terrorism by freeing Valigarmanda..? And then he got a job in Tuliyollal's guard, which made zero sense to me. He can do a 180 when he finally realizes we're not trying to demonize him and want to give him a chance, but he still has to answer for his crimes and redeem himself in the eyes of the people affected by his actions, not unlike Fordola.



Percibel worded it better than me:

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I think the lack of consequences is one of the biggest parts of why Dawntrail came up short. Now, I'm not one of those people who are clamoring to have characters die (when that happens in a lot of stories, it's just a lazy shorthand for emotional investment) but I do think that characters having to deal with the fallout of their bad choices would make the story much more believable. Remember Alphinaud and the Crystal Braves?

The other problem is that we seem to never learn from said bad choices and their consequences. I hate that the game makes my WoL an idiot. Why in the world would I trust Sphene? She couldn't be more obvious if she held a giant neon "I'm the villain" sign. Why did we just stand by and watch the duel go down the way it did when Zoraal Ja was obviously cheating? Like...you know it's bad when Alisae of all people is the voice of reason.

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lol, poor Alisaie catching strays!

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

I actually want important story characters to die epically. I hate if they get resurrected. Can Raubahn not split some more Lalas in half? Good times.

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Good times indeed, my friend, good times... maybe it is time to pay an old friend's memorial a visit again.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

No, it's just a good game, I think you would benefit from playing it. I think everyone should play Tetris and return their game minds to factory settings.

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You're a big Tetris fan, but what are your thoughts on the Puyo Puyo x Tetris x Hatsune Miku crossover? I think it's delightfully cute and frustrating in equal measure.
It exists. Look it up.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

I think the main difference between them was that Fordola went to jail, and when she was given a chance to redeem herself, she was still under tight watch and faced judgement. It's like everyone forgot Bakool Ja Ja was involved in literal terrorism by freeing Valigarmanda..? And then he got a job in Tuliyollal's guard, which made zero sense to me. He can do a 180 when he finally realizes we're not trying to demonize him and want to give him a chance, but he still has to answer for his crimes and redeem himself in the eyes of the people affected by his actions, not unlike Fordola.

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Maybe I'm just overjustifying something that shouldn't be justified (I do agree it feels like he got off too lightly) but I think there may a difference that Bakool is just young enough that the situation is treated as "teenager made stupid decisions and needs a chance to do better" while Fordola is being treated as an adult?

I'll be very interested when we get the fourth lorebook (if not sooner) to find out how old Bakool is supposed to be. The game is vague about it but I suspect he's younger than he seems, particularly as there are a few characters throughout the game who are young-teenage and treated as quite mature.

It does feel in character for Wuk Lamat to hear how legitimately messed up Bakool Ja Ja's backstory is and just let him off the hook.

He is the only candidate I found interesting and I still find it curious that he was even in the contest when he's technically just a rando and constantly cheated the rights, so I can't help but conclude that Galool Ja Ja put high value on blessed twins despite himself and being fully aware of the eugenics and sheer quantity of dead babies involved to make one set. (And the fact the other three candidates were his children he raised.)

But Wuk Lamat and Koana both come off like a teenagers 99% of the time they are on screen.

One of my favorite cutscenes from Stormblood was the Eorzean leaders meeting with Varis Zos Galvus, they haven't replicated another political encounter like that in the following expansions.

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Originally Posted by kinslayer-

One of my favorite cutscenes from Stormblood was the Eorzean leaders meeting with Varis Zos Galvus, they haven't replicated another political encounter like that in the following expansions.

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That was such an epic moment. I loved how everyone was so defensive about their position.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I've said before, I feel like that one scene of him releasing Valigarmanda is the "odd one out" that might have gotten written as something else, but then for some reason it was rewritten to make him look more villainous without reviewing what it did to the surrounding story.

Other scenes suggest that Sareel Ja plans to manipulate Bakool Ja Ja into being useful to his goals, which implies that Bakool didn't get the idea to release Valigarmanda on his own but was talked into it. Given that context - along with what we later learn about his actual situation - it would make more sense if he'd been talked into releasing it in the belief he could defeat it and prove himself the worthy ruler despite failing in the competition, especially since he's rather desperate by that point. So if he did that and failed miserably at the defeating part, we'd still end up in the same position of having to track it down and fight it but wouldn't have Bakool being evil for no good reason.

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one thing that REALLY would have helped it show that it was not his idea and it would have given a seed to him having a redemption arc would have been him taking responsibility and fighting the thing along side us.

back to Gaius when Lahabrea used Ultima Gaius was mortified at the destruction the weapon was capable of he was fully against the bad guys after that and it also showed that he was not just interested in destroying the people he was against despite how scummy the empire is Gaius was not a complete scumbag even less funded writing did the villains better than DT.'

we'll ignore that alphino was also one of the villains (I still hate that kid in the BG)

when it comes to bakool ja ja the thing that bothered me the most would be the scene when he just leaves one of his own people to die.
'you're hurt? well we wont slow down, good luck surviving against the wild beasts.'
the writers just wanted to make him appear more villainous while it was too soon to show his soft heartedness.

i get that he would be pressured to do something like that even though he would feel its wrong, but come on someone like that would hesitant and feel sry. its not even a stranger

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Originally Posted by Asari5

[...]the writers just wanted to make him appear more villainous while it was too soon to show his soft heartedness[...]

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It really seems like the writer did not bother to include the nuance needed to make said character development believable. This also presents in other characters such as Koana in the same patch. There were too few moments dedicated to let players know how he went from "I know I can rule my country and protect it through technological deterrence" to how he came to a conclusion that he lacks his sister's compassion (and to an extension, Urianger and Thancred too who would've very likely question the absurdity of this decision, but decides not to?). One could think his kindness isn't quite well known, but if that's true, then it strikes wonder to me how there were those two Tuliyollan came to his face jubilantly & was excited to see him potentially claiming the throne pretty early in 7.0., which implies that he's not that unkind and thus undermines the narrative.

The characters had decent starting point, but all too quickly being rushed to love the main character in order to satisfy the predetermined outcome of the story. That's not going to come out well.

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Originally Posted by Kirutsuki

It's not just "politics" imo. what 14 currently doesn't have is a villain that can actually cause harm to the general populace with an army or by rule of law.
We got rid of the empire, so now were left off with villains that have to find some "magic object" to cause havok with.

And Zoraal Ja was supposed to be this new threat since he was mocking the weakness of the Empire, but he didn't even have an army and Wuk Llamat made it sound like he was
this tyrannical leader, which he wasn't really a leader of anything yet.

So when you introduce these new villains to the story they always fall flat because we know they don't actually have alot of influence on people themselves, they rely on magical gadgets to rule people with.
But true villains are people who show up and have a massive army behind them and actually start to take take over areas in the world and turning them into some wastelands.

And through that, you can have political situation happen in the story because the opposition is literally in your direct opposition and actively tries to ruin the peace.
But if it's just a dude with magic crystal yelling "I hate people", it's never going to go anywhere deeper cause all we need to do is get that crystal away from them and they're just a baby without anyone supporting them after.

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Honestly, it kinda feels like the Solution 9 stuff should have been its own expansion. It would have really built up better if that stuff were post patch content or something. Zoraal Ja building his forces and harrying the borders of Tural with his invading forces. Both the Tural section and the Alexandrian section feel like they did not have enough room to breathe and really show off their strengths and were just speedruns.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

He is the only candidate I found interesting and I still find it curious that he was even in the contest when he's technically just a rando and constantly cheated the rights, so I can't help but conclude that Galool Ja Ja put high value on blessed twins despite himself and being fully aware of the eugenics and sheer quantity of dead babies involved to make one set. (And the fact the other three candidates were his children he raised.)

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I believe he was in due to winning some contest in Mamook for a sort of wildcard entry?

Rather than placing high value on him, I wouldn't be surprised if Gulool Ja Ja is expecting him to fail, or at least unfussed about him failing, and showing that blessed siblings aren't inherently better than other people.

bakool ja ja won some kind of official tournament. soraal ja was busy so he couldnt participate. they said that specifically which i do find weird. why would someone who already has the right to fight for the throne be allowed to also take the only ticket someone unrelated could get?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Maybe I'm just overjustifying something that shouldn't be justified (I do agree it feels like he got off too lightly) but I think there may a difference that Bakool is just young enough that the situation is treated as "teenager made stupid decisions and needs a chance to do better" while Fordola is being treated as an adult?

I'll be very interested when we get the fourth lorebook (if not sooner) to find out how old Bakool is supposed to be. The game is vague about it but I suspect he's younger than he seems, particularly as there are a few characters throughout the game who are young-teenage and treated as quite mature.

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I'm pretty sure he's way younger than he seems, but terrorism is terrorism I'm afraid. Valigarmanda's fire has been burning for 80 years straight and killed thousands in the past. I'm not saying he needs to rot in jail, not at all, but putting him in the city's guard seems really tone-deaf to me... it's not hard to imagine how the families of victims would have felt seeing the beast that killed their loved ones free once again. His only saving grace would be if no one except those involved in the rite knew it was his doing, but if I was a Yok Huy I wouldn't trust this guy to protect anyone as a guard. I guess it could have made some interesting tensions between the Yok Huy and Tuliyollal.


I like the idea of his character, he had a lot of potential, but the writers did him (and most other characters) really dirty imho. It's really a shame.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

I'm fine with a political intrigue in the story. But there's a line where it's used to write a compelling story and when it's used to further an agenda. Yoshi loves his political intrigue, it's why most of ARR ---> SHB has it. But the line is clearly in the sand too. No agenda pushing. Just a story.

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100% this ^. Political storytelling should be done. People confuse "get the politics out of my games" with what people actually want, which is nuanced political discussion and intrigue. Not blatant personal agenda pushing and propaganda. I'm currently in the patch content of Heavensward and for the most part have really enjoyed the base expansion story and the little I've gotten to of the post-campaign, patch storyline.

Power levels are too high, characters are too boring, story isn't political enough

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Originally Posted by Darkshade

Power levels are too high, characters are too boring, story isn't political enough

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Personally, I find it funny that Zoraal Ja is a higher level than Zodiark and Hydelan, lol.

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Originally Posted by Empyr

By far one of the biggest weakness of Dawntrail is Tural's lack of political turmoil. Despite Alexandria popping up next to them and staging an attack resulting in multiple casualties including the Dawnservant, who reportedly is a very beloved figure, there's next to no tensions running in Tural, and that's not including it's utopian backstory solved by The Dawnservant suprisingly easy from what we end up hearing. Obviously things have settled because of our actions at the end of 7.0, but there is very little to suggest there is trauma from this event outside of exploring how Turalians caught up in the dome acclimate back to Tural.

I feel like in the olden days, the msq would definitely try and explore this. Such as having a faction grift on Zoraal Ja's idealogy despite him leading the attack. Maybe they wouldn't know, or perhaps they would and do so anyway because they want power and don't care about people. Wuk Lamat as a character always expresses how she wants her people to live in peace and happiness, but seeing her people fall to hate and calling for war could have lead to some interesting avenues to explore. Like how empty promises and platitudes without action is a disservice to those we've lost and disrespects their legacy and in turn, could have enhanced Solution Nine's theme of remembering the dead in parallel, through bringing together people to remember those who have long passed.

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You really hit the nail on the head with this. I'd like to add that I suspect a big reason why the Dawntrail MSQ didn't try to explore these kinds of themes is because the writers tried to fit way too much into the time they were given. Only the first half of 7.0 and some of 7.1 has Tural as the main focus while the rest is focused on Alexandria, and it feels like this has resulted in the writing of both sections suffering.

You can tell Tural was written as a one-time destination because the only political conflicts are either quickly dealt with or might as well be irrelevant. Right now the Scions and everyone else seem fine with letting Alexandria keep Tuliyollan territory they took by force. They just had us beat a few bad guys who are responsible for all the bad things so we could move on to somewhere they actually care about.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

"THOSE ANIMALS CONSENTED TO THE ROBOTIZATION AND HAPPY TO WORK IN EGGMAN LAND! THEY TOLD ME THEMSELVES!"

-Dr. Robotnik

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Where was the Warrior of Light when Dr. Eggman marched on Eorzea?

...I'd play that game.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

It does feel in character for Wuk Lamat to hear how legitimately messed up Bakool Ja Ja's backstory is and just let him off the hook.

He is the only candidate I found interesting and I still find it curious that he was even in the contest when he's technically just a rando and constantly cheated the rights, so I can't help but conclude that Galool Ja Ja put high value on blessed twins despite himself and being fully aware of the eugenics and sheer quantity of dead babies involved to make one set. (And the fact the other three candidates were his children he raised.)

But Wuk Lamat and Koana both come off like a teenagers 99% of the time they are on screen.

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I feel like you're forgetting the important scene where Galool Ja Ja confides in us that this contest isn't really a contest. He openly admits that he doesn't think any of the candidates, even his children, are ready. All if this was just to gauge if any of them at least had potential.

Even if Bakool Ja Ja won through cheating, he still wouldn't have become king. Same with his children. He wanted to see them grow through this competition.

I'm great with political intrigue in my fantasy games/stories. What I don't like is when said political intrigue is issues ripped right out of RL. Like someone copy/pasted a debate they read on social media between a liberal and a conservative. A fantasy world, in my view should have wholly FANTASY issues or issues that make sense in the setting. Modern Earth social debates as an example, feel really out of place for me in games with wholly fantasy dynamics.

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Originally Posted by Aonns

Where was the Warrior of Light when Dr. Eggman marched on Eorzea?

...I'd play that game.

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Better question, where was Sonic when the Garlieans were forced up north by the great nations?

I'm just sayin', an Eorzia Fronters game mitebcool.