Quest based leveling: Future problem?

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Idk why you would want me to quit?

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If you want me to be real really honest, it's so that we dont have to see sensationalist threads and the backlash that comes with it. If you want me to be funny, because everyone hates you! yayaya get on the hate train!

Personally I'd like to see them change the character progression into a skill based progression, mixing it with FFXI's skill-up system with Bethesda's Elder Scrolls skill-based type of progression. I felt that's what the Armoury System should have been in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

They did not say only quests but also content driven, which means repeatable quest, which doesn't always means kill xxxx for xx times, could be for clearing dungeons so you get exp for killing stuff inside and clearing the dungeons etc.

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Exactly. In the current game, you can level all your jobs to 50 without participating in any story or doing any quests. I don't think they want this to be the same in ARR. They want people to see and understand the world they're playing in.

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Originally Posted by bobbygunz

Actually, Yoshi said that mob-grinding would not be viable, and that there would be quest-based progression (which would be the ideal way to level). And this thread is just a concern that quest-based progression doesn't make sense unless there's repeatable or self-directed content.

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He said "contend-based progression"

And don't overlook this:

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Y: There are lots of contents to choose from so we have it set where the obtainable EXP isn’t good just by doing one. For those who want to gain EXP efficiently I think it’s best to do different stuff equally.

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So, doing only quests is not the best way.

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Originally Posted by Forerunner

Why shoot yourselves in the feet and revert to quests = best exp, like pre 1.18 changes?
And before another person says to me "But the quests will be uber FF story and in depth, all of them" Get real.
It's not logistically feasible for that many quests to contain that much content. It'll be "Bring me X bearbutts today pl0x xXxSephirothxXx"

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Kinda early and i'm leaving for work so I don't remember which interview exactly, but I think it was the one Reinheart recently translated.
But Yoshida mentioned that 'Leves will be there for people that don't like to read text', paraphrased. Wild guess, the quests you oh so fear will be levequests, and sidequests will have more content and story, and actually compleiting the Main/New GC/Beastman questlines will have sufficient XP reward to incentivize playing them at proper level for faster levelling.

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Originally Posted by bobbygunz

Actually, Yoshi said that mob-grinding would not be viable, and that there would be quest-based progression (which would be the ideal way to level). And this thread is just a concern that quest-based progression doesn't make sense unless there's repeatable or self-directed content.

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No, he said that it would not be the most optimal way. It will still be viable, it just may not be the most efficient. People who cannot stand quest leveling will still have the option to do other things if they so choose.

I think Square Enix will need to update regularly. This game needs more than one lv1-50 content - it needs 8. The max level isn't 50, it's 400. And this isn't even counting the crafting and gathering.

What I would like are 8 sets of lv1-50 story-lines. Perhaps doing one could unlock another? Or it's given at random for each lv1-50 until all 8 have been depleted. Perhaps there could be class-only storylines added in. Perhaps Square Enix could pull a RuneScape/The Secret World and add monthly questlines that cater to medium-level players and high-level players, each installment adding a new area or expanding on another.

What I would like is for Square Enix to add another large-scale event like the 7th Umbral Era event. Make it a long-term 5-6 month main story that gives limited-edition rewards to the players who dedicated themselves to complete it. I like being one of the heroes of old who have defeated Nael van Darnus and saved everyone from Meteor. We need more things like that so that players can explain to newbies the events that happened before they came.

Make events big so that players don't have to quest to have fun. Make a fair - decorate an entire city and have a parade like Nautilus from XIII. When the Golden Saucer comes out let them open with a bang! Grand opening party, discounts, GMs disguised as npc welcomers, receptionists, and tour guides, etc!

Most likely a lot of quests will be repeatable and will give you dungeon objectives also that reward EXP. I wouldn't worry about this. I am sure they are way ahead of you on that issue.

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Originally Posted by yoshikwalla

I think Square Enix will need to update regularly. This game needs more than one lv1-50 content - it needs 8. The max level isn't 50, it's 400. And this isn't even counting the crafting and gathering.

What I would like are 8 sets of lv1-50 story-lines. Perhaps doing one could unlock another? Or it's given at random for each lv1-50 until all 8 have been depleted. Perhaps there could be class-only storylines added in. Perhaps Square Enix could pull a RuneScape/The Secret World and add monthly questlines that cater to medium-level players and high-level players, each installment adding a new area or expanding on another.

What I would like is for Square Enix to add another large-scale event like the 7th Umbral Era event. Make it a long-term 5-6 month main story that gives limited-edition rewards to the players who dedicated themselves to complete it. I like being one of the heroes of old who have defeated Nael van Darnus and saved everyone from Meteor. We need more things like that so that players can explain to newbies the events that happened before they came.

Make events big so that players don't have to quest to have fun. Make a fair - decorate an entire city and have a parade like Nautilus from XIII. When the Golden Saucer comes out let them open with a bang! Grand opening party, discounts, GMs disguised as npc welcomers, receptionists, and tour guides, etc!

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Wont happen. That is the concern. They have not had enough time to build all those customized fun quests. Will be a bunch of go-fetch quests you repeat.

man people really hate rokien. He's got an opinion just like everyone else. he's just a bit more...batshit crazy about them.

anyway.

It's been stated that there will be 3 main story arcs. and i have no doubts that eventually there will be more. you can easily balance between leves/trash quests, story arcs, and grinding to get 3 50s.

all in all, i don't think getting every single class to 50 is for everyone. I personally like versatility, so i'd like to have one class in every role, and also level classes i enjoy at a more leisurely pace. at some point i'll have to pick a main class to gear/pimp out.

right now I have WHM (support) BLM (ranged DD) MNK (Melee DD) and am working on WAR (Tank) so i can fulfill any role needed. I have yet to decide which class to focus on first, but i will primarily be gearing with GC equips, because they will be useful on multiple classes.

It's really about how you want to play. They've made thread about rare rewards for solo content. they've said there will be 3 main story arcs. and they've said they will add in trash quests. open world grinding is also implied to be viable, just not the most effecient. if this is delivered, the game will be very versatile. there will be rewarding solo content. you can level at your own pace (grinds, trash quests, story quests) and the classes are being revamped, I assume to help further differentiate them and make them even more fun to play. there's nothing stopping us from exploring on our own. there will probably be XP rewards for this as well, if they are truly following the mmo standard. not to mention they are also revamping gathering/crafting to be more interactive and less boring. so really there should be something for everyone.

so we can speculate all we want, but it's really up to the delivery at this point.

I'm hoping for a job quest line. Like we have now except more quests and more exp. Each job can deal with completely different storylines and there would be enough exp for each job.

It's a valid concern, maybe the intensity is off, though. Not everyone is going to enjoy the same things. Frankly, I DID enjoy grinding mobs FFXI style. Not all the time, true, but most of the time. And most of the quest driven MMOs I have played haven't managed to hold my attention for longer than a few months. So when I see Yoshi talking about how killing mobs is not going to be the most ideal way to exp and that there will be a bigger focus on completing quests it does make me worry a bit.

The truth is having to repeat anything for effective gain ALWAYS has a deteriorative effect on the enjoyment of an activity. Whether it's killing the same mobs over and over, doing the same quests over and over, running the same instance over and over. The more you do it, the less you invest mentally to the task.

For quite awhile I absolutely hated guildleves. Could not stand them, to the point that I'd rather not play the game if the only way to gain progress was through leves. Even now I could really care less if they all suddenly disappeared. And sometimes I like to go out and grind a specific mob for a material I might need. All the better if I can also make appreciable gains on one of my lower classes at the same time.

The biggest problem with the information we get, is that it is filtered through various sources. The interviewer interprets the information from yoshida (hopefully as accurately as possible) then it needs to be translated from Japanese into English I'm sure we lose a lot of nuance and context by the time the information is represented in a form we can understand.

It doesn't make the fear completely unjustified though. and Frankly, the laissez faire attitude many people have is not going to make anything better. Because by the time it is in a form that you can experience and judge for yourself it is far beyond the point of no return for certain things.

If you have faith in the current dev team that's great. But personally when I read something that gives me doubt or causes me to worry, I'd rather speak up about it and at the very least get some clarification on the matter, than sit on my laurels and hope that it won't be as bad as it potentially could be.

Also, I had to laugh at whoever said repeating quests promoted exploration more than mob grinding. It might promote movement more than mob grinding, but it doesn't promote going off on your own and seeing what is in every nook and cranny of a map. Weak argument is weak.

I know I cringe when I see another Rokien tabloid style sensationalist thread... but that has more to do with how he portrays himself and his ideas... because often times his fears are my own, he just shares them in a way that makes you kinda want to punch him.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

thats better than open world grinding on same mobs for few levels.

At least dungeons is challenging, offers drops, and various mobs.

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Im sorry I disagree, dungeons are boring its all instanced no thankyou. Why should I have to run the same damn dungeons for exp, I would prefer exp camps like there have always been. At least with the exp camps I can explore, instanced dungeons are just plain boring. So all in all the open world will become useless for a linear path to level cap, where everything is on easy mode and no competition. If you need your hand held from level 1- cap than a MMO isnt for you cause thats exactly what is going to happen. So now Final Fantasy becomes just another standard lobby game OH WOW those are so much fun (NOT), as well as boring.

I guess I'm failing to see the difference.

Currently, you repeat leves until you run out of your leve allowance, then you grind specific mobs in specific areas.. You essentially repeat this process for each class. OK, so you have three sets of leves to choose from, one from each of the city states.

How does that differ from repeating a quest chain that actually has a persisting story as far as repetition goes? Heck, at least with a quest chain you only do each quest once per class, I can't even begin to recall how many time's I've done "The Wight's Stuff"..

At least with a story tied into the quest chain you have something to help with your immersion rather than these random mob kills originating from aetherites.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Exactly. In the current game, you can level all your jobs to 50 without participating in any story or doing any quests. I don't think they want this to be the same in ARR. They want people to see and understand the world they're playing in.

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That is not their choice to make that is up to the player to make that choice. I pay to play and I want to play my way not the way some DEV thinks I should. Now if a player dosent want to do the story that is their choice and the DEV's have no right to tell them you have to do the story. Each player has the right to play the way they wish to play as long as it is not a violation of the user agreement.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

I am terrified of "quest-based leveling." To me, its the scariest and most worrisome phrase of all 2.0. I cannot stand quest-grinding. I much, much, rather monster grind in a party. In fact, I am worried in general of the idea of quests being primary means of exp over killing monsters.

Be crushed if 2.0 comes out with nice new servers, etc, and is just a FF version of every other WoW clone out there. Please god no.

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I completely agree with you. Thankyou, I myself can not stand to level on quests, I dont want to level in an instanced dungeon either, I prefer open world grinding at a place I choose and when.

Rokien definitely strikes me as one of those idiots that think that allowing gay marriage would turn the future generation gay.

The debate in this game has always seemed political to me and it's pretty amusing.

On one side we have the bat-shit crazy people who don't want anything to change and want to backpedal on things that have made us better. While on the other side we have the people that say "we know we're not the best anymore but we will strive to become better".

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Originally Posted by Masamune1004

They said they were adding lots and lots of quests, and since the speed of leveling will stay fast, I'd assume there will be enough quests for all DoW/M classes at least.

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That's really silly. Skyrim doesn't even have that many quests.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

That's really silly. Skyrim doesn't even have that many quests.

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What does an offline game have to do with an MMO?

I am at work so cannot write the 14-page manifesto of why I believe quest-driven leveling (aka, quest-grinding) is the root of all evil. But at its core, quest-grinding almost implies solo play. Now, before you go and say "But you can quest together!" How many people do guildleves together? How many people quested in WoW together? Rarely does it happen. To contrast, for monster-grinding, you pretty much have to party with others to gain exp at a reasonable rate. This is because to kill monsters that yield exp you need to fight things way higher than you (i.e., impossible to kill consistently by yourself).

There is the key. One incentivizes solo play while the other incentivizes party play. I prefer to play with others.

I think having quests is good, but I think they should serve a small role to advance the story or lore, not be a means of progression because you then spend most of your time running around, talking to npcs, and killing things solo. Why not just play a solo RPG?

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Originally Posted by Masamune1004

What does an offline game have to do with an MMO?

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They are comparable in this case. Skyrim had hundreds if not thousands of quests. All hand crafted by devs. It would take more than that number of quests to level 7+ combat classes and 12+ crafting/gathering classes to 50, even if the exp gain was 1 level per quest. And in order for those quests to not be boring they would also need to be hand crafted by devs, else we just may as well keep leves.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

I am at work so cannot write the 14-page manifesto of why I believe quest-driven leveling (aka, quest-grinding) is the root of all evil. But at its core, quest-grinding almost implies solo play. Now, before you go and say "But you can quest together!" How many people do guildleves together? How many people quested in WoW together? Rarely does it happen. To contrast, for monster-grinding, you pretty much have to party with others to gain exp at a reasonable rate. This is because to kill monsters that yield exp you need to fight things way higher than you (i.e., impossible to kill consistently by yourself).

There is the key. One incentivizes solo play while the other incentivizes party play. I prefer to play with others.

I think having quests is good, but I think they should serve a small role to advance the story or lore, not be a means of progression because you then spend most of your time running around, talking to npcs, and killing things solo. Why not just play a solo RPG?

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So basically what you're saying is, you like to do things one way, so everyone else should be forced to do things the same way? Because you'll still be able to grind mobs in exp parties if you want, nobody will force you to do these quests. And why does it have to be one way or the other? Maybe some people like both solo and party content. Also playing solo in an MMO =/= solo RPG. There are many things in an MMO that you can't get from an offline RPG, like the social aspect (linkshells/free companies) and the economy. By your logic everyone who crafts and gathers exclusively should play offline crafting games.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

They are comparable in this case. Skyrim had hundreds if not thousands of quests. All hand crafted by devs. It would take more than that number of quests to level 7+ combat classes and 12+ crafting/gathering classes to 50, even if the exp gain was 1 level per quest. And in order for those quests to not be boring they would also need to be hand crafted by devs, else we just may as well keep leves.

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These quests might be leves for all we know, and even if they aren't, I honestly don't think we need trash quests for DoH/L, leves are fine for those. And I hope they aren't hand crafted so we can get more of them, considering that the quests in Skyrim were still pretty boring to me after a while.

Quest leveling is what MMO is like now, no more from grinding.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

Rokien definitely strikes me as one of those idiots that think that allowing gay marriage would turn the future generation gay.

The debate in this game has always seemed political to me and it's pretty amusing.

On one side we have the bat-shit crazy people who don't want anything to change and want to backpedal on things that have made us better. While on the other side we have the people that say "we know we're not the best anymore but we will strive to become better".

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Total agreement with that. To both this game forums and the political commentary.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

I am at work so cannot write the 14-page manifesto of why I believe quest-driven leveling (aka, quest-grinding) is the root of all evil. But at its core, quest-grinding almost implies solo play. Now, before you go and say "But you can quest together!" How many people do guildleves together? How many people quested in WoW together? Rarely does it happen. To contrast, for monster-grinding, you pretty much have to party with others to gain exp at a reasonable rate. This is because to kill monsters that yield exp you need to fight things way higher than you (i.e., impossible to kill consistently by yourself).

There is the key. One incentivizes solo play while the other incentivizes party play. I prefer to play with others.

I think having quests is good, but I think they should serve a small role to advance the story or lore, not be a means of progression because you then spend most of your time running around, talking to npcs, and killing things solo. Why not just play a solo RPG?

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What
Exactly
Prevent the quests from being geared towards being done with a group?

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Originally Posted by Skies

What
Exactly
Prevent the quests from being geared towards being done with a group?

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Blasphemy! If the people don't believe it, it can't be possible! /end sarcasm

People don't want to be forced to solo on quests, but refuse to party in dungeons. Hypocrites I say.

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Originally Posted by AlaulaTheGreat

Okay, as a person who has played a couple of different MMOs, quest based leveling worked for them mainly because it was one storyline for the one class that you chose to level. However, we have an armory system, where you level multiple classes on one character and experience all the the story on the one character.

Anyone see the problem yet?

Lets say I'm a noob, just finished leveling my warrior 1-50 or where ever our new cap may end up being through quest. What if I decided to level Dragoon, would the quest restart on their own, or will I have used all my quest up for my second job.

I like questing to gain experience, but I'd just like some comments if this will be the case.

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I believe they are keeping the leve system more or less, might be a little different but im guessing most of your xp will still come from leves. so maybe the quest hubs ill just have some main story quests and repeated quest you purchase with leves, so when you go through again you can still just pick up these quests again with leves.

You guys have brought up some great points in this thread and I went ahead and asked Yoshida on what he thinks.

Here is his reply:

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Don't worry, of course there will be content besides just quests, but please wait for future details in an upcoming announcement. By the way, just to be clear, it won't just be leves! :p

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Now to wait for that announcement! ;)

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

You guys have brought up some great points in this thread and I went ahead and asked Yoshida on what he thinks.

Here is his reply:



Now to wait for that announcement! ;)

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Still a little concerned. I just want to play with others and often questing results in a completely solo track to endgame. Hope that is not the case.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

You guys have brought up some great points in this thread and I went ahead and asked Yoshida on what he thinks.

Here is his reply:

Now to wait for that announcement! ;)

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Thanks Rukkirii! Send him best regards, and I'm sure that we will really enjoy whatever he has planned!! :)

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

You guys have brought up some great points in this thread and I went ahead and asked Yoshida on what he thinks.

Here is his reply:



Now to wait for that announcement! ;)

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actuly this info worrys more than quest based leveling....

In regards to quest based leveling is it limited to class or can we pick the class the exp goes to? (which is something current players will need, 2.0 players probably wont till far later on)
Im aware certain things like job quests more than likely need to be limited to that job/class.
Also will rested bonus be still be there? & can we pick the class it goes to?

Welp. first dev response ever for me.
I've done what I come here to do. Force Yoshi to tell us that there was an announcement coming soon.

Let the flood begin!

"Soon" guys! Now read 4 pointless paragraphs of lore and shut up!

Woot, am very interested to see what this other unknown leveling content is.

Wonder if it is a campaign-like, semi-dynamic, open-world-ish, type event that people can join in together to do. Probably will cover the level ranges so you can do it in certain areas, like a level 10-20 area, 20-30 area, etc.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

Still a little concerned. I just want to play with others and often questing results in a completely solo track to endgame. Hope that is not the case.

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While I actually enjoy leveling in groups, I actually worry about the reverse. I find it frustrating when I hit a level where I'm eligible for a new skill and then have to find a group to help me go out and kill an NM because it's unsoloable for my level, yet they receive really no benefit for helping me other than a pat on the back and a "thanks for helping out".

While WoW had a lot of quests, these type of group quests you would pick up would still be an issue. In most instances they are completely unsoloable for the level they are acquired and when you're usually off doing questing on your own, it's rare that someone else is looking for that same specific quest you are (especially given the wide level range in WoW). I worry more about that here, because it seems that the questing system is going to be very story driven where you'll probably need to follow them in sequence. Usually in WoW I would just skip those group quests and do the other ones that were offered. But if I'm in a questing sequence, now my progression is blocked unless I can find someone else (or a group) on that specific quest, which is very unlikely, or I need to beg/ask someone to take time out of their schedule to come help me with it so I can progress.

I just hope the development team is thinking about this as they create this new questing system. I do love partying and would love to have some quest lines designed for groups around a specific level range. Where you complete a series of 3-5 quests over some period of time (chains of varying lenghts, 1-3 hours). I would like a system like that since all final fantasy's are about the journey of a group. But if the quest chains are mixing solo quests with group quests, I just know I'm going to find myself frustrated having to look for help every time I want to continue the story I started.

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Originally Posted by Vindrax

While I actually enjoy leveling in groups, I actually worry about the reverse. I find it frustrating when I hit a level where I'm eligible for a new skill and then have to find a group to help me go out and kill an NM because it's unsoloable for my level, yet they receive really no benefit for helping me other than a pat on the back and a "thanks for helping out".

While WoW had a lot of quests, these type of group quests you would pick up would still be an issue. In most instances they are completely unsoloable for the level they are acquired and when you're usually off doing questing on your own, it's rare that someone else is looking for that same specific quest you are (especially given the wide level range in WoW). I worry more about that here, because it seems that the questing system is going to be very story driven where you'll probably need to follow them in sequence. Usually in WoW I would just skip those group quests and do the other ones that were offered. But if I'm in a questing sequence, now my progression is blocked unless I can find someone else (or a group) on that specific quest, which is very unlikely, or I need to beg/ask someone to take time out of their schedule to come help me with it so I can progress.

I just hope the development team is thinking about this as they create this new questing system. I do love partying and would love to have some quest lines designed for groups around a specific level range. Where you complete a series of 3-5 quests over some period of time (chains of varying lenghts, 1-3 hours). I would like a system like that since all final fantasy's are about the journey of a group. But if the quest chains are mixing solo quests with group quests, I just know I'm going to find myself frustrated having to look for help every time I want to continue the story I started.

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Sounds like guild leves will be soloable. So I hope quest lines do require parties since there will already be a solo route.

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Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur

Sounds like guild leves will be soloable. So I hope quest lines do require parties since there will already be a solo route.

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I wouldn't have an issue if all the main quest lines were meant for groups, I just don't want them to switch between "do this quest solo, then find a group, then do this one solo". If they're meant only for groups, then it's likely you'll stick with your group to finish the chain.

However, class quests that really only reward the player whose class quest it is, should be soloable, or should offer significant rewards for the players who are volunteering their time to help you complete it.

I'm pretty sure Yoshida san said in one interview that killing random mobs will still be a way to gain EXP but it will just no longer be the BEST way to gain EXP.

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Originally Posted by Mrfox0707

I'm pretty sure Yoshida san said in one interview that killing random mobs will still be a way to gain EXP but it will just no longer be the BEST way to gain EXP.

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Well who in there right mind would group up then? Its harder to play with others. You should be rewarded for making the effort. I think the best exp should be from groups. The best obtainable items and hardest achievements should be obtained from groups. The most fun should occur in groups. They need to incentivise group play or why will people do it? That to me is a successful MMO RPG, key part being the MMO part.

To add, I think solo content is fine. After long day of work I want to jump in, knock out a few leves, low effort, low reward, but some reward. However, when I get time (weekends) I want to do some fun stuff, some hard stuff, preferably in groups.

Probably beating a dead horse, on a sinking ship, in a van, down by the river, a river no one cares about... FML