I don't get why people like the Arcadion's story (Spoilers)

It occurred to me last night that what happened to the Estinien + Nidhogg situation is almost exactly what happens when a human uses a feral soul in the Arcadian. In Estinien's case, the transformation was not voluntary, but it was very much a human soul with a dragon soul stuffed into the soul casing (via the eyes, which is where a dragon's power is stored), causing a major transformation of the outside body's aether.

Estinien isn't even involved in the B plot of the Arcadian, but I think it's interesting that their method of feral soul stuff has a parallel from all the way back in 3.0.

I like fighting games/mma, so the concept behind the Arcadion is something I really enjoy. I like the relations to issues like showmanship and doping.

I think the fight designs have been really fun so far.

I really like the cast - I care more about this group than I did the new characters in DT MSQ itself aside from Sphene.

The "techy young girl" trope who solves problems that none of the adults could seems a bit unrealistic, but since I'm overall really enjoying myself it's not that much of a big deal.

The moment to moment experience of going through the raid storyline is much more enjoyable. In the MSQ story, you have to do a lot of running around talking to 4x NPCs and reading several dialogues from each, and then running to another NPC and getting a cutscene, and then even more running around talking to NPCs... etc. It goes on for a couple hours. The characters are affable and in agreement and on the same side, so there is no drama or tension from characters. It isn't until after 2 or 3 hours that you finally get a slightly more engaging gameplay section.

The raid storyline trims the fat. You walk to the catgirl's house, get a cutscene of their visit to the mad bomber's house which has the funny house cat segment, and get some drama when you break the news about the magick cancer and he doesn't take it well. Then you get a quick introduction to the two funny bosses and then you are off to the fun boss fights. Then you get a cutscene of mad bomber being out to get you which stirs up drama, which means another fun boss fight. Then you get another short cutscene that is pretty fun with Honey Bee lovely staging a public confrontation with the cat guy, and then you are off to another fun boss fight with him. And then the chairman calls in to leave us in a cliffhanger and the story is adjourned. The 2 to 3 hours of boring talking with no tension is cut, making the remaining time much more potent. Characters don't overstay their welcome, they get in, be fun for a few minutes, and then get out while having left a good impression. Once fan favorites like G'raha Tia and Erenville appeared in this patch, but no one cared because they have been overexposed via many countless hours of talking to them as they stand around in quests and cutscenes being affable. Everybody liked the Crystal Exarch when he only had a few scenes and came off as a cool leader in them.

It almost like the same plot as EW 24man, you know "come and have ago if you think you're hard enuff"

I'm not going to praise it as groundbreaking storytelling, but I've enjoyed the raid story more than MSQ (haven't played 7.2 yet, just going form 7.0 and 7.1, which were, frankly, wretched). This is probably a lukewarm defense, but I will try to explain where I'm coming from.

- I like that it explores the darker side of Alexandria/Solution 9's culture in ways that the MSQ seemed allergic to. I wanted a cyberpunk dystopia, and it's set up to be a very good one, and yet the MSQ treats S9 as this futuristic theme park full of very stupid and gullible people who don't know what death is that we are expected to take very seriously and feel sorry for and babysit. Arcadion shows the negative aspects of that culture to us. Naive young fighters, trying to make a name and place for themselves in a cruel society that uses SOULS as currency, slowly killing themselves for the joy and adoration of the crowd and the company president. Now that's the cyberpunk I wanted.

- Re: characters changing their minds quickly, lacking self-preservation, not making smart decisions. This is a flaw of a lot of raid storylines that only have a very limited time to try and tell a story, so I tend to give them a bit of a pass, though I agree it can be jarring and is less than ideal. For a similar reason, I never really liked Gaia much in the Eden raids because her "character growth" moments felt too rushed for me to find her believable or interesting. But I do think it's worth pointing out that these characters are from a culture where death and suffering is mostly hidden far away from them and erased from their minds. This is probably the first time in their lives they have had to think about death and what it really means.
Also, most of them are teenagers. Have you known most teens to be calm, rational people? Yeah.

- Re: The president. I don't know what his deal is yet, so I'm withholding judgement on his character. Maybe it'll be really stupid by the end, I don't know. Maybe he still knows something we don't that will make sense in the end. We'll see.

- Re: Child conveniently solves the plot and is abducted before they can do anything about it. Yeah, this trope annoys me. I'm generally not a fan of child characters because 99% of the time they're not written like actual children at all and come off more as adults pretending to be children, and badly at that. Child characters are often far too smart and connected than they realistically should be and are more or less just adult characters that are allowed to occasionally be cute and do childlike things, or they are awful little annoying monsters that are far more stupid than real children are. It doesn't ruin the story for me, though, it's just kind of an "eh, whatever," thing to me.


I didn't have high expectations going into this raid story, so maybe I'm satisfied that it's been entertaining at all. It's wrestling plot-line levels of storytelling. It's silly and trope-y, while also trying to have a bit of a grittier side. I can totally understand if some folks don't like that. For me, it's good enough for what it needs to accomplish. It's far from my favorite raid storyline so far, but it's not terrible, and it has some fun and unique characters.

Everyone always makes the wrestling comparison and that is valid but I love it because I love old movies like Rollerball and this is hitting pretty much every single one of those tropes. Especially the whole "the villain was beside me all along" since they dropped some hints we already know them. I have a theory on who it is and why they would care more about their scripts and spectacle than stopping us from finding a cure.

I'll take this storyline over any part of the DT MSQ, anyday of the week. At least this was entertaining.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I noticed that too. It was a huge shock that the President didn't care that we wanted to release all the souls or all the other things. In fact, his goals align perfectly with ours, to the point that kidnapping people has no actual purpose.

You would think the President would want to run future tournaments after this one. But no. He only cares about finishing this one, like the WoL does. So our goals align and there's not really an overarching villain after all.

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What reason do we have to believe that the president is not lying to us?

I mostly enjoy it because the characters are fun or endearing really.
I know nothing of american wrestling, had to ask around what a keyfabe or a heel is after hearing people use those terms like everybody should know about them, and even after being it explained to me it puzzled me even more as to why people would get captivated by a scam like this. References, everything in the raid story feels alien to me for that specific reason, but otherwise, the base stakes and world building definitely salvage it for me.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

* A bunch of people, Brute Bomber included, refuse to believe they have a disease that is killing them when they are obviously presented with debilitating symptoms. Howling Blade, when presented with the fact that this thing is killing his friends and lover, decides that he wants to push forward anyway? Explaining that the President gave him purpose in life doesn't handwave away all the other relationships the story has been trying to build. It only makes his motives feel cheap.
* Characters have no real sense of self preservation, and they act for shallow reasons. Hell, they will flip on a dime when the story suits it too. Howling Blade will go from "I don't have any purpose so i'll die in the arena" to "I don't care if you lose, i'll continue fighting anyway" to "suddenly, I care about my reputation" to, after you beat him, smiling and saying "I guess i'll retire" like it never meant anything to him.
* Our big bad, the President, supposedly doesn't care that you're wanting to cure Psychonecrosis, but he tries to undermine you at every step from doing so? He has two opposing motivations at once, and they don't go together. Yes, I get that he's trying to preserve his fighters, but curing the condition would allow him to have his cake and eat it too.
* The solution to the problem is literally pulled out of thin air by a child at the most opportune moment. Then, conveniently, she's spirited away before she can do anything about it.

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Everythng you described is accurate to real wrestlers in real life who frequently die at young ages and their being a raid series that's commentary on the harm they do to their bodies , along with manipulating people with very few prospects and the fulfillment some may find in such careers vs that harm is cool actually

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I noticed that too. It was a huge shock that the President didn't care that we wanted to release all the souls or all the other things. In fact, his goals align perfectly with ours, to the point that kidnapping people has no actual purpose. You would think the President would want to run future tournaments after this one. But no. He only cares about finishing this one, like the WoL does. So our goals align and there's not really an overarching villain after all.

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I think his main directive is to give the people entertainment. I think his whole purpose is tied into the Arcadion somehow, whether by personality or the fact that he's an endless that has been programmed to do it. I think the souls are just the honeypot to lure in the WoL to fight = more entertainment. I think it's all about the melodrama that wrestling has where everything from kidnapping to goofier stuff happens in the storylines too in WWE and other wrestling federations. Vince Mcmahon the chairman of WWE doesn't give a hoot about if his wrestlers use drugs, get mental health issues because of that, or if his wrestlers get hurt as long as the show keeps going.
I think the President think he can eventually beat us, maybe with a heavyweight champion, but I wouldnt be surprised if his only reason was to just keep the show going and making it as entertaining as possible with "storylines" which our "Non-soul using fighter braves the arena and fights soul-users to free all the souls!"

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

... And i'm legitimately curious as to why people *do* like it. Convince me. Share with me the reasons that it resonates with you.

...

Enlighten me.

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I don't even understand why it has to be evil. Why does everything have to be slap stick evil for some reason? Couldn't it just have been an arena with a wholesome tournament and savage fighters where you get a trophy and earn their respect at the end?

Nah.

It has to be full of Children getting pumped up with substances and getting cancer and kidnappings and people throwing their lives away just to look cool.

Yeah. Juvenile would be the word to describe it. Not overthinking it and keeping it straight forward would've been the correct choice here. But for some reason everything solution 9 does has to be absolutely toxic. May as well just burn the entire society down.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

I don't even understand why it has to be evil. Why does everything have to be slap stick evil for some reason? Couldn't it just have been an arena with a wholesome tournament and savage fighters where you get a trophy and earn their respect at the end?

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I'd be down with that too but then you know the forums would be exploding over how stupid it is that there's no reason for the WoL to do it aside from ego/'proving Zenos right'.

I think Arcadion story should've been MSQ Tbh, Way more depth than anything Wookie Lamat ever shown.

Arcadion Music Is SSS Tier, "Bee my Honey" & "Not Afraid" compliment the fights so well.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

Is it because of the spectacle? Is it a "turn your brain off and have fun" storyline that you just don't care if things make sense so long as it's got spectacle, good music, and cool fighters? Or are there other reasons?

Enlighten me.

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I think people like it because it's the antithesis of what launch MSQ was for DT. It was a breath of fresh air. It's a lower stakes adventure where you're not trying to save the world, you're going on an adventure that shifts into a strong moral stance to save a few people and stop what your character finds morally deplorable--the use of souls for entertainment. The plot is basic, but this is kind of the premise DT offered and then failed to do.

And it's important to mention that you are doing it. You're coerced, but it's your choice. You're not being dragged around babysitting a side character with aspirations of upstaging you as the protagonist. That's going to be huge for a lot of players. Remember Shaaloni, the filler, was a favorite part of the MSQ for a lot of people during launch. Same reasons.

But then...compare the fighters to the Scions. All the Scions felt bland, lifeless shadows of themselves. That's--by far--one of the biggest complaints of DT's writing once you get past the bulging dossier on Wuk Lamat. The fighters, by contrast, have vividly different, and charming personalities. You could argue a little tropish, and that might be true--but I think some of them, especially in 7.2, get some more nuance to their personalities, or double down on the ideas to comedic effect--especially Honey B Lovely and Brute Bomber.

Presentation also matters--and the fact we get pretty good music that sets the mood and sometimes even expands on a character's thoughts and narrative (Wicked Thunder, Howling Blade).

Are there wrinkles and flaws I can point out? Do I have questions about the direction? Absolutely. Questions are only a problem if the answers are unsatisfactory, however (such as a President, I'll get into him). And mild, or even moderate flaws are forgivable if enough of the experience delivers.

This is gonna be a multi parter for the rest. Bear with me.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

Explaining that the President gave him purpose in life doesn't handwave away all the other relationships the story has been trying to build. It only makes his motives feel cheap.

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If you've ever played RDR2, it's the same reason people were so loyal to Dutch. The President is bringing in strays. People lost, or at their low points, or desperate. He tells them everything they want to hear. Quitting a job isn't easy, especially if it's one you like. And for most of these fights, quitting means leaving everything they have.

For Honey Bee, on the other hand, the choice was easy. She already has what she wants: legions of adoring fans who will stand by her seemingly no matter what. She doesn't need the Arcadion any more when she can live as a streamer celebrity. The Arcadion essentially outlived its usefulness to her, so leaving wasn't all that hard.

Compare this to say...Sugar Riot. Her wants are similar. Her art was a tool of expression first and foremost, and she deeply enjoyed the attention her work received. However, without the Arcadion, she loses her biggest audience. She can go back to the city where people can see her graffiti, but it doesn't have same notoriety or admiration. But to her that's still better than losing it all in dying. So she's despondent, but willing to retire.

Then you have Dancing Green who's sticking with the job more or less out of routine at this point, even though the passion is gone. For him all it took was a little push to leave, and the revelation was a big shove.

Which leads to Howling Blade and Brute Bomber, who both felt they had nothing before the Arcadion. The danger of their career literally killing them is worldshaking. It's natural to be in denial (Brute Bomber) when facing such bad news so abruptly. The Five Stages of Grief are a thing; he gets through three of them before he dies.

Howling Blade, on the other hand, is not in denial at all--if anything he's in the last stage of grief where he's accepted it, and has decided he would rather enjoy a short , joyful life than be--in his mind--miserable for a long one. Like Eutrope before him, Howling Blade's fight lyrics tell a narrative about his headspace. The most important thing in that context is how he only feels not just purpose, but a sense of who he truly is when he becomes Howling Blade. More on that in a second.

Now you might say Howling Blade has Eutrope and he's being an idiot. Absolutely. But being an idiot in a relationship and worrying about whether you measure up is honestly very realistic. And remember--he thought Eutrope left him. We see that exchange right before we break the news to Brute Bomber.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

Hell, they will flip on a dime when the story suits it too..

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Kind of agree that this could have been handled better, but this is where I think the context of Retsarra's mindset (I'm using his real name here) becomes really important. Retsarra is practically wedded to his face as Howling Blade. His whole sense of identity is attached to this character. Retsarra doesn't want to accept the terms of the WoL's challenge, because he knows it for the trick that it is. However, as soon a the crowd starts heckling him he accepts the challenge under pressure because it's what Howling Blade would do. Howling Blade wouldn't fear such a challenge, so he accepts it regardles of what Retsarra thinks about it. Likewise, he accepts defeat gracefully and agrees to those terms because that's what Howling Blade would do. To turn down the challenge, and especially to continue fighting would be to break Howling Blade's character, and thus break who he sees himself to be.

Now we're asked to accept a lot of this at face value, Howling Blade's self identity matter as well as the fact we're not really told why, but this isn't a problem unique to Arcadion so much as the Normal Raid stories as a whole. Cutscene time is limited, and the first casualty is nuance. I think Arcadion does that better than, say...the imperfect creation magic of Eden (which can be explained but it's a lot of work and speculation--also why did we summon two primals at once in the name of speed? What rush were we in at that point?), or the inner mechanical details of Alexander's time loop, how a soulless creation in Alpha can suddenly develop a soul, or even just why the human spirit matters in a fight (although EW does explain this two xpacs later, Omega arguably setting the groundwork for Dynamis--but we wouldn't have known that then).

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

* Our big bad, the President..

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The President is one of the "questions" that needs a satisfying answer in 7.4 and it could really make or break the plot. I have a pet theory about this President's motives--I think he's against the use of Feral Souls. Not necessarily for moral reasons, but as a purist--remember that the Arcadion never used Feral Souls in the past. That's why he's so interested in recruiting you--the unaugmented fighter. If you win the title, you prove that Feral Souls aren't necessary. And while they might be less visually interesting, you will absolutely have people trying to copy your success, so you releasing all the feral souls creates kind of an "oh well" situation where the President can nudge people back into the old ways.

Now if he's not acting this was as someone with an axe to grind with feral souls, I got nothing. I could somewhat see it as a Rock esque corporate villain because wrestling reference, but that falls a little flat right now because the story is completely out of public awareness.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

* The solution to the problem is literally pulled out of thin air by a child at the most opportune moment.

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THIS on the other hand I absolutely agree with. I can buy that Oblivion has resources and that the military has a solution to combat the use of Feral Souls--after all--we do see that in Vanguard and the man seems unconcerned about the dire consequences of the illness.

HOWEVER, what I don't buy is that Eutrope never found this herself. That she found everything she knew in the Arcadion's hidden databanks and then just...never looked anywhere else? I guess it could be argued that it would have been more difficult with Zoraal Ja at large and Oblivion busy with getting him out of power, but it seems odd that Eutrope's thorough investigation was still so limited.

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Originally Posted by ZJyn

Then, conveniently, she's spirited away before she can do anything about it.

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That's a box standard plot device. I get how it can feel uninspired if you already have objections to the plot, though. Likewise people that enjoy the plot aren't going to care about one of the oldest tricks in the writing book. This is probably the proverbial cilantro of the story.

Sorry for all the posts. I had a lot to say and I wanted to give each point you made proper attention. It's refreshing to have a civil discussion about story for a change.