Should SE scale high end content difficulty towards the usage of SIM ?

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

The fact that using a sim is the optimal way to play the game shows just how bad modern raiding is.

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Cheating is always the "optimal" way to play anything

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Originally Posted by Valence

Then the question becomes, why are checkpoints not an option?

( the answer is pretty obvious )

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I don't understand what this has to do with the point that I made.

Being able to practice part of something in isolation does not detract from the difficulty or consistency required to complete it from start to finish in one attempt. Adding a checkpoint would mean that you don't need to complete it in one attempt.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Not really. The ability to practice a later segment of something in isolation without having to go through the whole thing to get there is always advantageous. This applies to literally anything, not just raiding. It's no different from a musician practising a passage from the end of a difficult piece of music on its own.

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That's not the issue. The issue is that the game has only pumped out dance style fights with the same dynamo chariot left right spread stack pyretic freeze light party partners since SB where the most difficult mechanics since late SB were literally all just memorizing the raidplan on a debuff soup mech. Guess what happens when your mechanics are so stale and scripted? People might as well just use an amateur sim to get it done.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

I don't understand what this has to do with the point that I made.

Being able to practice part of something in isolation does not detract from the difficulty or consistency required to complete it from start to finish in one attempt. Adding a checkpoint would mean that you don't need to complete it in one attempt.

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He means a checkpoint to practice a phase in isolation.
That said, my response to this would be that it's pointless and actually harmful. You will have different resources in a checkpoint pull than you would in a proper pull, so you can't really practice things and probably actually are more likely to ingrain bad habits/expectations of what you can and can't do when you swap from checkpoints to full run.

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Originally Posted by ExcellusUltimus

Nothing in savage is worth simming. The fights aren't long enough. I usually clear ultimates on patch, and I've never had a group that didn't want to sim. I think the general consensus is that you should do whatever preparation possible to expedite prog. If you can prog at the same speed as people who sim without simming yourself then I'm sure nobody would take issue with your philosophy, but many would just kick if you were lagging behind.

But I agree overall, the fact the community has resorted to simming these mechanics has really highlighted an issue. An argument could be made that a segment of the community is attempting the hardcore content that doesn't have the requisite skill to beat that content. That's a fairly decent argument, and it highlights the problem with people using things like cactbot and splatoon to trivialize mechanics. If simming was also a third party tool that violated TOS I would agree with that position too. (I'm not saying that's your position by the way.)

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One of my semiHC group (DSR) wanted to use SIM but me and a few others were against it

To me using sim is straight up like cheating

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Consistency is consistency. Not difficulty.

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«*Dps check is a dps check, not a difficulty*»

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

No. Why is this even being asked? it's a ridiculous thought, if it can't be performed in-game, it cannot be balanced around it, that should be the start and end of it.

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Well then PC players (who uses sim) will have a huge advantage over console players + SIM is not illegal technically, and as you can see in this thread a lot of people consider it as a «*training tool*»

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Originally Posted by Valence

It's funny how the game can be summarized into "don't stand in the orange" nowadays whether it shows on screen or not.

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Incoming every endgame raider and their dog saying "umm ackshually it takesh shkill!!!!"

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

«*Dps check is a dps check, not a difficulty*»

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Agree completely.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Well then PC players (who uses sim) will have a huge advantage over console players + SIM is not illegal technically, and as you can see in this thread a lot of people consider it as a «*training tool*»

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And pray tell, how does that give PC players an advantage against console players? you do not need to own the game on PC to use simulators, as it runs separate from the game, you only need a halfway decent PC, and most modern user-level laptops will be able to run it no problem, at most you will have to deal with WASD movement for a bit while practicing, as I am not sure sims supports controller, but I can't imagine that having a gargantuan impact as the goal is to see and understand mechanics, and even if it doesn't, this also affects PC players as plenty of people play on controller.

I find it hard to believe that "the dance" was intentional gameplay design instead of the only thing they could do in a few months of crunch after 1.0. All of FFXIV is duct-taped together as if the only reason this game exists is to cover up 1.0 and keep Square Enix from bankruptcy. The existence of "snapshotting" shows this. People salivate over snapshotting and "the dance" but there's a reason why the majority of FFXIV players and the vast, VAST majority of MMO players don't put up with this. Without add-ons, plugins and sims, this game would be extinct outside of Japan.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

And pray tell, how does that give PC players an advantage against console players? you do not need to own the game on PC to use simulators, as it runs separate from the game, you only need a halfway decent PC, and most modern user-level laptops will be able to run it no problem, at most you will have to deal with WASD movement for a bit while practicing, as I am not sure sims supports controller, but I can't imagine that having a gargantuan impact as the goal is to see and understand mechanics, and even if it doesn't, this also affects PC players as plenty of people play on controller.

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I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you could run the sim on a phone.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Well then PC players (who uses sim) will have a huge advantage over console players + SIM is not illegal technically, and as you can see in this thread a lot of people consider it as a «*training tool*»

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"huge advantage" in FFXIV... Really ?

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

I don't understand what this has to do with the point that I made.

Being able to practice part of something in isolation does not detract from the difficulty or consistency required to complete it from start to finish in one attempt. Adding a checkpoint would mean that you don't need to complete it in one attempt.

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This was a jab at SE's design, not at your point.
The lack of checkpoints in a conscious design choice they do to artificially increase lifespan of progression and the time people invest into running the content (this was the obvious answer).

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Originally Posted by Clockworks

"huge advantage" in FFXIV... Really ?

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Well it makes the fight easier by 30-40% for ultimates ?

Tell me if it's huge or not

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Originally Posted by Valence

This was a jab at SE's design, not at your point.
The lack of checkpoints in a conscious design choice they do to artificially increase lifespan of progression and the time people invest into running the content (this was the obvious answer).

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I'm really not a fan of the way that people attach the word "artificial" to words when they want to turn something that isn't inherently negative into a negative. "Artificial difficulty" usually translates to "difficult in a way that I don't like and can't explain", yet people throw the term around as if it's some kind of objective standard.

"Artificial difficulty" is the mating call of the scrub. It reminds me of the people who get filtered in fighting games because lows and throws are "cheap".

Games aren't a naturally occurring phenomenon. They're intentionally designed experiences. Game design in its entirety is contrived. That's why it's called game design. All difficulty is artificial. Ultimate raids requiring the party to build enough consistency to make it through the whole gauntlet in a single attempt is the design philosophy of the content.

So you're saying that I cannot explain why 1) I do not like it and 2) consider it inherently artificial?
That i'm just making mating calls and I'm a scrub?

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Originally Posted by Valence

So you're saying that I cannot explain why 1) I do not like it and 2) consider it inherently artificial?
That i'm just making mating calls and I'm a scrub?

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If you have to preface a statement with "so you're saying..." and paraphrasing it, you're probably making a strawman argument. Otherwise you could just reply directly to the point that was made.

But you didn't explain why you think ultimates requiring consistency was bad, you just said it "artificially" extends the amount of time required to prog the fights - implying that the design is inherently flawed. If you can explain why you don't like it, or why you think it's bad, then do that instead of slapping the word "artificial" on it and calling it a day.

A scrub is a player who blames their lack of success on the game or their opponent rather than their own lack of skill or poor decision making. You can decide for yourself whether you're a scrub or not. I wasn't directly calling you a scrub as much as saying that dismissing a source of difficulty as "artificial" instead of either getting good and overcoming it or deciding that the game isn't something that they want to play is scrub behaviour.

There are many forms of difficulty in game design. The player is expected to have or develop different skills to meet the needs to content. Asking players to meet a level of consistency to beat the content is entirely valid. Aside from ultimate, another good example of this would be any boss with a very high health pool in Souls or Monster Hunter. They force the player to correctly resolve mechanics and survive for a long time, i.e. the key to winning in these fights is consistency.

Personally, I wish there was a wider variety of content in FFXIV, with different forms of difficulty that ask different things of the players. But given the snapshot-based netcode and current game design whereby jobs and roles are easy enough for the absolute bottom of the playerbase barrel to play, there isn't much else they can do. The devs have designed themselves into a corner so to speak. They can't really leverage mechanical skill or reaction times because the game is too sluggish and they can't really leverage tight DPS or role checks because jobs and roles have been degraded so much that the only way to create a challenge here is by making things so tight that they're a crit variance dice roll.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

I find it hard to believe that "the dance" was intentional gameplay design instead of the only thing they could do in a few months of crunch after 1.0. All of FFXIV is duct-taped together as if the only reason this game exists is to cover up 1.0 and keep Square Enix from bankruptcy. The existence of "snapshotting" shows this. People salivate over snapshotting and "the dance" but there's a reason why the majority of FFXIV players and the vast, VAST majority of MMO players don't put up with this. Without add-ons, plugins and sims, this game would be extinct outside of Japan.

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There were a lot of fights that weren't just the dance early on in this game's life. Vets would know. Stuff like T7, A6S. Dungeons were also way spicier and had interesting mechanics, like Tonberries chasing you in WP.

So I don't think it's engine limitations. It's way worse - it's that they no longer know or want to innovate on mechanics and gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Consistency is consistency. Not difficulty.

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With that logic a driver only needs to make 1 proper turn in a race, instead of being able to perform full laps for over an hour.

Consistency is part of difficulty. And depending on the lenght of the content (10mins or 20mins) consistency takes a bigger portion. If content gets made long enough, consistency can be the only difficulty part, which is what makes a lot of retro games high scores such a big achievement. Being consistent for 8 hours is extremely difficult. Even in easier content, it becomes the difficulty.

If you need sim to do your ultimate raids and your telling ppl u better sim or kick...congrats u might as well like the stalker program ur ok with third party tools either they bad or not. XD man i love this community double standards

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

If it cannot be supported natively in the game for both PC users and console alike then it has no business being a factor in design process.

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This. Why would SE design around something that isn't available in their game? They've repeatedly said they design these fights to be able to be done without any third party tools for years now. The only way this will change is if they bring that type of tool into the game natively. Then they can design around it since it would be a feature in the game.

What pray tell is SIM?

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Originally Posted by Krokov

What pray tell is SIM?

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Simulator, copy paste from a Reddit post:

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Hi everyone

Just sharing https://www.xivsim.com - An FFXIV simulator that allows you to connect with your static/friends and practice specific phases of difficult fights in real time.

The tool runs directly in your browser and doesnt require any installations. You can request a server, and share the url for your friends to join.

Once inside you can choose specific phases or mechanics to play/strategize around.

The tool will be openly accessible this weekend (more info on the discord server https://discord.gg/3A7fGmemPc), for initial feedback with an official release a couple of weeks later.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/o61br2/introducing_xivsimcom_an_ffxiv_raid_mechanic/

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

If you have to preface a statement with "so you're saying..." and paraphrasing it, you're probably making a strawman argument. Otherwise you could just reply directly to the point that was made.

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Isn't that a little rich coming from the one that was literally building one by making up groups of people that just throw the word aimlessly and "can't explain it"? And then acting entitled because I don't engage with your (frankly aggressive) reply? Instead of asking me why I thought it was artificial, you instead chose to make a direct ad hominem attack by associating me within this label, so please excuse me if I'm not indulging you there.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

A scrub is a player who blames their lack of success on the game or their opponent rather than their own lack of skill or poor decision making. You can decide for yourself whether you're a scrub or not. I wasn't directly calling you a scrub as much as saying that dismissing a source of difficulty as "artificial" instead of either getting good and overcoming it or deciding that the game isn't something that they want to play is scrub behaviour.

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Yes, you definitely weren't... I wonder why you brought it up then :rolleyes:

At least have the honesty to stand by your words.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

There are many forms of difficulty in game design. The player is expected to have or develop different skills to meet the needs to content. Asking players to meet a level of consistency to beat the content is entirely valid. Aside from ultimate, another good example of this would be any boss with a very high health pool in Souls or Monster Hunter. They force the player to correctly resolve mechanics and survive for a long time, i.e. the key to winning in these fights is consistency.

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Yes that's definitely for consistency. And for content lifespan. And because it's part of the difficulty.

Doesn't mean I can't call it artificial. You don't like it when I do?

The reason it's artificial isn't because it enforces consistency. The reason it's artificial is because it enforces a gameplay where you spend 95% of your time trudging through 10+ minutes of fight just to be able to prog for 10s before the next wipe.

That's artificial. That's literally gameplay denial.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Personally, I wish there was a wider variety of content in FFXIV, with different forms of difficulty that ask different things of the players. But given the snapshot-based netcode and current game design whereby jobs and roles are easy enough for the absolute bottom of the playerbase barrel to play, there isn't much else they can do. The devs have designed themselves into a corner so to speak. They can't really leverage mechanical skill or reaction times because the game is too sluggish and they can't really leverage tight DPS or role checks because jobs and roles have been degraded so much that the only way to create a challenge here is by making things so tight that they're a crit variance dice roll.

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Stop making excuses for them. They and the community brought it up upon themselves, and they can start working to correct the problem like any developer facing a problem should. That of course, would have higher chances to happen if they actually agreed that it is a problem, which their course of action seems to prove otherwise. They like their DDR long dances and they don't see a problem with it.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This. Why would SE design around something that isn't available in their game? They've repeatedly said they design these fights to be able to be done without any third party tools for years now. The only way this will change is if they bring that type of tool into the game natively. Then they can design around it since it would be a feature in the game.

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My problem with it is largely the precedent that it would set for future design if they were to account for extrinsic tools and resources, who's to say they don't eventually steer down the path of "Well a lot of people also use this tool, so perhaps we should also account for this tool in our design process". It just generally makes for bad design.

If they can develop xyz natively in the game, then by all means factor that into a design process. But if you cannot natively support it, then don't do it. - Then you have the whole skill discrepancy that it creates with those that can access it easily, and those that cannot, e.g., those accessing on console.

I am just considering it from a design perspective. - I feel like if people want harder content then they should just straight out ask for harder content -- Not content designed around something that isn't even native to the game.

Sims don't really work for me as a learning tool, and I think they're kinda lame. I don't like how normalized they are.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This. Why would SE design around something that isn't available in their game? They've repeatedly said they design these fights to be able to be done without any third party tools for years now. The only way this will change is if they bring that type of tool into the game natively. Then they can design around it since it would be a feature in the game.

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it's because it seems to me that a lot of people are using SIM, that's why

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Sims don't really work for me as a learning tool, and I think they're kinda lame. I don't like how normalized they are.

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They're normalized? I guess I live under a rock, then.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Isn't that a little rich coming from the one that was literally building one by making up groups of people that just throw the word aimlessly and "can't explain it"? And then acting entitled because I don't engage with your (frankly aggressive) reply? Instead of asking me why I thought it was artificial, you instead chose to make a direct ad hominem attack by associating me within this label, so please excuse me if I'm not indulging you there.



Yes, you definitely weren't... I wonder why you brought it up then :rolleyes:

At least have the honesty to stand by your words.



Yes that's definitely for consistency. And for content lifespan. And because it's part of the difficulty.

Doesn't mean I can't call it artificial. You don't like it when I do?

The reason it's artificial isn't because it enforces consistency. The reason it's artificial is because it enforces a gameplay where you spend 95% of your time trudging through 10+ minutes of fight just to be able to prog for 10s before the next wipe.

That's artificial. That's literally gameplay denial.



Stop making excuses for them. They and the community brought it up upon themselves, and they can start working to correct the problem like any developer facing a problem should. That of course, would have higher chances to happen if they actually agreed that it is a problem, which their course of action seems to prove otherwise. They like their DDR long dances and they don't see a problem with it.

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If you don't want to be lumped in with scrubs then don't parrot their mantra.

If you want to understand why I can't stand the term "artificial difficulty", do me a favour and Google the term yourself. You'll get a mile long list of 100 different people citing 100 different criteria for what constitutes "artificial difficulty". And a lot of them will directly contradict each other. The term serves no purpose other than allowing people to convince themselves that they aren't bad, the game is bad, whatever the problem might be. If the game is bad then play a different game.

You could make a fair point for something like corpse runs (which don't exist in XIV) being gameplay denial but reaching your prog point again is gameplay. If it wasn't gameplay, it wouldn't require consistency.

I'm not making excuses for SE. I'm trying to explain that this is not a fight design issue but a symptom of the slow and steady degradation of every other facet of the game. If you want to complain about something, complain about the aggressive over-streamlining of jobs and role responsibilities, because that's the root cause. That's the reason that SE has to put all of their eggs in the fight design basket.

At the core, I think we actually agree, but you're trying to treat the symptoms rather than the disease.

No. Next question (I had to look up what SIM even is).

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Originally Posted by PaulusHamsteru

No. Next question (I had to look up what SIM even is).

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I havent the foggiest either, but assuming its a 3rd party tool. Then no! Thats exactly whats wrong with the game and has been since launch. Sadly its likely impossible to get rid of them at least like this, but that doesnt mean they shouldnt try.

I dont raid, but 3rd party tools are EXACTLY why I dont. Back in heavensward it was ACT this and ACT that and I hate comparing numbers. Im here to have fun and learn the dance, not compare epeens and debate whats meta...
To hells with 3rd party tools.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

I havent the foggiest either, but assuming its a 3rd party tool. Then no!

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Sims are not a "third party tool" in the ToS-breaking sense, they are simulators designed to replicate the game's general functions, simulate fight mechanics, and allow someone to practice them repeatedly without the need to form a party, without the need to do the fight up to that point, or even launch the game, this makes them a tool, that isn't made by Square Enix, so third party, but because they never interact with the game, they don't break ToS in any capacity, in the legal sense they are no different than a wiki.

If you want "hard" content you should go and play an RTS or whatever ACTUAL esports game against real people, not a game in which you memorize a scripted fight that will be 100% the same for every time there after. Just saying man.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

it's because it seems to me that a lot of people are using SIM, that's why

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SE doesn't care. They're well aware of tools out there now and they aren't designing content around them and have been adamantly against that idea.

A sim is as much of a third party tool as someone making a video guide is. Functionally that's what it is, an interactive guide.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

If you want "hard" content you should go and play an RTS or whatever ACTUAL esports game against real people, not a game in which you memorize a scripted fight that will be 100% the same for every time there after. Just saying man.

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I like Tekken and some FPS game

Not fond of RTS/MOBA

But can you explain to met what's the common point between PvP fighting game/fps/rts/moba and PvE with 7 other people ?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

SE doesn't care. They're well aware of tools out there now and they aren't designing content around them and have been adamantly against that idea.

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Well it's sad then lol

Yoshi compared ultimates to a ferrari, with the SIM and with how FRU is easier, it has become a 1000$ car

at least the prog is always fun, even if there is """no""" reward

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Originally Posted by PaulusHamsteru

No. Next question (I had to look up what SIM even is).

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do you even do high end content ?

There is nothing wrong with a fight SIM as the entire human learning experience is tied to repetition. There are many games out there that even go a step further and have training rooms in-game (much wow I know), allowing you to practice either the entire fight or specific portions of it.