Re: Regarding the Use of Third-Party Programs and Player Safety

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

The game doesn't support Linux.

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no but it runs well on proton. basically plug and play.

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Originally Posted by EunJuAnna

no but it runs well on proton. basically plug and play.

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Sure, my point is that "we can't do x because it would impact an unsupported platform" doesn't really hold any weight as an argument.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Sure, my point is that "we can't do x because it would impact an unsupported platform" doesn't really hold any weight as an argument.

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that's true, I agree.

At this point in this thread, "third party tool" is just a scapegoat diverting players from seeing how $h!tty their DT Blacklist system.

I fully support the use of anticheat and it is long overdue. Anticheat will bring legitimacy back to raiding in this game. If it means the boys can't clear ultimates or savage anymore without their 32 addons helping them then so be it. Square Enix will see a decline in clear rates and adjust encounter difficulty moving forward, and this includes DPS checks.

The problem we have in the game, and this reached its Zenith in TOP, is that square enix calibrates content based upon community clear rates and feedback. If complicated mechanics can be trivialized by third party tools, then Square Enix incorrectly draws the conclusion that those mechanics are easy for the community, so they put in more. Why do you think so many fights have included mechanics that are trivialized by automarkers? SE thinks we're great at marking and sorting people! Except, we're not, at all. We're carried by people who have ACT pluggins.

Anticheat is by far the best thing for this game, and if it causes people to quit because they can't use their lalafell mods or clear base raids then cya, this was in the TOS from the start.

Considering they take forever to make any significant updates to the game it will take a major patch to fix this at best if we are being optimistic about yoship just not wanting to jump the gun.

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Originally Posted by ExcellusUltimus

Anticheat will bring legitimacy back to raiding in this game.

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lol
lmao
there's no way dude

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

lol
lmao
there's no way dude

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Good argument. It's full of facts.

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Originally Posted by ExcellusUltimus

Good argument. It's full of facts.

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It won't. Look at Albion Online which does have Kernel level Anti-Cheat, the place is still ridden with cheaters. I'm not going into how they do it here.

This situation proves how poor the security of the game is if a plugin can scan hundred of thousands of accounts and player I.D's and shows there is no encryption or any protection of data.

So they think they can send account IDs to every client, so long as they don't show them in-game, and blame plugins?

What is this alternative reality I haven't heard of, in which the only programmers in existence are working for SE?

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Originally Posted by brinn12

So they think they can send account IDs to every client, so long as they don't show them in-game, and blame plugins?

What is this alternative reality I haven't heard of, in which the only programmers in existence are working for SE?

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If you leave your keys in the car, and the car unlocked we generally still arrest the car-thief that steals it.

I do think anticheat would go a long way to improve the state of the game but it isn't even worth thinking about because the chances of CBU3 building a decent custom anticheat solution when they won't even improve the implementation of a simple blacklist is basically zero.

Anyone suggesting anti-cheat software either does not know or does not care that any information dealing with basic account security should not be left raw and unencrypted and handled purely client side. There's a HUGE host of problems and issues associated with various levels of anti-cheat software, things that you absolutely do not want to consent to having installed on your platform, and yet we have some big brains in this thread who think it's the answer?

SE should be handling sensitive information server side, or at the very least encrypting the information. The fact that some people are suggesting "oh use anti-cheat" instead of acknowledging the actual issue is beyond incomprehensible. Just because you think such a thing would stop SOME people, that still does not deal with the root issue of player safety. Sure, maybe you are weeding out some people who cannot find such a thing easy, but you are still allowing access to sensitive account data. You are not dealing with the core problem, you are suggesting a solution that does nothing to fix the issue.

Again, account information should not be raw, unfiltered, unencrypted, and sent to every client. It has nothing to do with whatever third party tools people are using and it has everything to do with how SE has decided to leave account safety to chance in the wind.

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Originally Posted by tank2fish

Anyone suggesting anti-cheat software either does not know or does not care that any information dealing with basic account security should not be left raw and unencrypted and handled purely client side. There's a HUGE host of problems and issues associated with various levels of anti-cheat software, things that you absolutely do not want to consent to having installed on your platform, and yet we have some big brains in this thread who think it's the answer?

SE should be handling sensitive information server side, or at the very least encrypting the information. The fact that some people are suggesting "oh use anti-cheat" instead of acknowledging the actual issue is beyond incomprehensible. Just because you think such a thing would stop SOME people, that still does not deal with the root issue of player safety. Sure, maybe you are weeding out some people who cannot find such a thing easy, but you are still allowing access to sensitive account data. You are not dealing with the core problem, you are suggesting a solution that does nothing to fix the issue.

Again, account information should not be raw, unfiltered, unencrypted, and sent to every client. It has nothing to do with whatever third party tools people are using and it has everything to do with how SE has decided to leave account safety to chance in the wind.

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I am willing to sacrifice nearly anything to purge a segment of this community from the game forever. They're a festering lesion on this community. The solution may be imperfect, but if it gets rid of them I will call it a success.

Funny part everyone favorite 3 letter tool uses that id as well so ppl could see it on that website XD

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Originally Posted by ExcellusUltimus

I am willing to sacrifice nearly anything to purge a segment of this community from the game forever. They're a festering lesion on this community. The solution may be imperfect, but if it gets rid of them I will call it a success.

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Except anti-cheat would not do what you apparently think it does. It will not stop people from cheating. It will not adequately protect YOUR account and YOUR safety. It would not prevent bad actors from continuing to do what they have been doing this entire time. Tell me you don't understand how anti-cheat works without saying those words exactly, because this reply certainly tells me that.

With how janky the game already is and done with a content design of "THere, we did it, we won't touch this ever again unless your PC combusts or our servers melt down."

An anticheat engine, while goooood, would probably end up in even more grief and melt downs of basic game systems / QoL and more basic functions not working.

Honestly? It's at a point where instead of witch-hunting. Much like in hockey if the referees lose control of the game, the players need to start to enforce them.
Have neighbourhood watches to stalk the stalkers or stand around them in a ring if a victim notices them and notifies the watchers, to protect the stalker victim hahahaha.

Honestly, SE is one big internal IRL scandal away from losing all its goodwill. The only reason they are still floating with their game design is because they provided so much good storytelling and things in the past. Now it seems like radiosilence and minimal new features, just floating your submoney into other projects.

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Originally Posted by tank2fish

Except anti-cheat would not do what you apparently think it does. It will not stop people from cheating. It will not adequately protect YOUR account and YOUR safety. It would not prevent bad actors from continuing to do what they have been doing this entire time. Tell me you don't understand how anti-cheat works without saying those words exactly, because this reply certainly tells me that.

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So you don't think it would even detect ACT or whatever that pluggin is that people use to manage all of their cheating tools?

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Originally Posted by ExcellusUltimus

So you don't think it would even detect ACT or whatever that pluggin is that people use to manage all of their cheating tools?

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Act works strangely you dont need to download it you can also just get website to get that info.

Every developer must account for "cheaters", not just gaming developers. No anti-cheat software in the world would account for a poorly designed software, with a poorly written code that sends sensitive information to clients.

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Originally Posted by tank2fish

Anyone suggesting anti-cheat software either does not know or does not care that any information dealing with basic account security should not be left raw and unencrypted and handled purely client side. There's a HUGE host of problems and issues associated with various levels of anti-cheat software, things that you absolutely do not want to consent to having installed on your platform, and yet we have some big brains in this thread who think it's the answer?

SE should be handling sensitive information server side, or at the very least encrypting the information. The fact that some people are suggesting "oh use anti-cheat" instead of acknowledging the actual issue is beyond incomprehensible. Just because you think such a thing would stop SOME people, that still does not deal with the root issue of player safety. Sure, maybe you are weeding out some people who cannot find such a thing easy, but you are still allowing access to sensitive account data. You are not dealing with the core problem, you are suggesting a solution that does nothing to fix the issue.

Again, account information should not be raw, unfiltered, unencrypted, and sent to every client. It has nothing to do with whatever third party tools people are using and it has everything to do with how SE has decided to leave account safety to chance in the wind.

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The "sensitive account data" isn't PII, it's a reference number that is useless outside of SE's internal DB. Again this kind of posting is concern trolling to cast doubt because a segment of players really really do not want cheats or plugins like this banned.
But that's 100x harder whenever the game's files are completely insecure, there's no checks on memory being accessed or tampered with, and packets are out in the open. Anticheat is the first step to deal with this and actually get some control on the game and the community from the rampant abuse and cheats that are going around.
You can remove the account ID from the client, but then it just shifts and people will still make programs like this and spread them through dalamud to harass and stalk other players. Cracking down on these plugins will remove them from the hands of the majority of players, a few people will still have them but we won't have a crowdsourced harassment plugin in the hands of a large chunk of the game when it's significantly harder to inject or install it.

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Originally Posted by ExcellusUltimus

If you leave your keys in the car, and the car unlocked we generally still arrest the car-thief that steals it.

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Arresting the thief afterwards does not prevent your car from being stolen in the first place.

You shouldn't focus on just punishing those that break the rules, you prevent them from breaking the rules in the first place. Anti-cheat does not fix the underlying problem which is the fact that AccountIDs are being given to the client.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Act works strangely you dont need to download it you can also just get website to get that info.

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That... isn't true.

It needs to be running locally on your machine and either hooks into the game process or scrapes network data.

Any websites that you might be thinking of require a log that was generated using the ACT program to function.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Arresting the thief afterwards does not prevent your car from being stolen in the first place.

You shouldn't focus on just punishing those that break the rules, you prevent them from breaking the rules in the first place. Anti-cheat does not fix the underlying problem which is the fact that AccountIDs are being given to the client.

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Anticheat fixes the underlying issue that the game's memory is entirely unsecured and able to be easily read and tampered with. This would not be as big of an issue for sure if there was more security preventing mods and plugins in this game.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Arresting the thief afterwards does not prevent your car from being stolen in the first place.

You shouldn't focus on just punishing those that break the rules, you prevent them from breaking the rules in the first place. Anti-cheat does not fix the underlying problem which is the fact that AccountIDs are being given to the client.

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You can and should do both.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Anticheat fixes the underlying issue that the game's memory is entirely unsecured and able to be easily read and tampered with. This would not be as big of an issue for sure if there was more security preventing mods and plugins in this game.

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Anticheat does nothing to encrypt or secure the game's memory. It just prevents you from tampering with it as easily as we currently can.

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Originally Posted by Chaincat

Anticheat does nothing to encrypt or secure the game's memory. It just prevents you from tampering with it as easily as we currently can.

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Lmao what do you think anticheat does? it scans for files and memory that's been tampered with and checks if anything other than the ffxiv program is accessing the memory allocated to ffxiv.
Securing the memory is like 99% of what anticheat does.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Lmao what do you think anticheat does? it scans for files and memory that's been tampered with and checks if anything other than the ffxiv program is accessing the memory allocated to ffxiv.
Securing the memory is like 99% of what anticheat does.

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The current issue with the ID's placed on account is being sent through network to your client, meaning anti-cheat wouldn't prevent someone from making a standalone app to harvest the data.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Lmao what do you think anticheat does? it scans for files and memory that's been tampered with and checks if anything other than the ffxiv program is accessing the memory allocated to ffxiv.
Securing the memory is like 99% of what anticheat does.

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It would appear we're discussing this with people who third party programs and are unwilling to stop.

*sigh*
People behind the framework which supports plugins have already said that anticheats are not solving this situation.

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Originally Posted by ExcellusUltimus

It would appear we're discussing this with people who third party programs and are unwilling to stop.

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I want the issue solved as well. Adding an anti-cheat doesn't solve the problem. Cracking down on a single plugin doesn't solve the problem. Not sharing the information with the client solves the problem.

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Originally Posted by Chaincat

I want the issue solved as well. Adding an anti-cheat doesn't solve the problem. Cracking down on a single plugin doesn't solve the problem. Not sharing the information with the client solves the problem.

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I mean one of the reasons FFXIV is popular is because it *doesn't* install kernel level anti-cheat onto your system, which people are getting more and more antsy about nowadays. This wouldn't be a problem if the client oh...didn't get offloaded effectively a badly limited database api to the character storage. If the latter problem was handled properly before it even got patched in this would NEVER have been an issue.

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Originally Posted by brinn12

*sigh*
People behind the framework which supports plugins have already said that anticheats are not solving this situation.

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What do you mean? Kernel-level anticheats are flawless pieces of software that have never been circumvented and solve all problems.

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Originally Posted by ExcellusUltimus

It would appear we're discussing this with people who third party programs and are unwilling to stop.

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This post has the same energy as "the only reason to not let the cops search your house whenever they want is if you are a criminal"...

The point that you are ignoring is that there are many examples of how bad anti-cheat is at stopping actual cheating, the people who care about cheating will just figure out a workaround, and it becomes an arms race between cheaters and devs, which devs invariably lose because there is a limit to how much they can do without heavily inconveniencing their actual costumer base, the person you'd hit with an anti-cheat is the guy who wants his Hrothgar to stand upright, the guy who wants his Viera to wear a hat, and yes, even the modbeast who wants their Miqo'te to have a futa shlong longer than her torso, which regardless what pearl-clutching puritans will say, is completely harmless, nothing substantive will be gained, and the game will lose a sizeable chunk of revenue, that's what anti-cheats do, not what you want them to do.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

the person you'd hit with an anti-cheat is the guy who wants his Hrothgar to stand upright, the guy who wants his Viera to wear a hat, and yes, even the modbeast who wants their Miqo'te to have a futa shlong longer than her torso, which regardless what pearl-clutching puritans will say, is completely harmless, nothing substantive will be gained, and the game will lose a sizeable chunk of revenue, that's what anti-cheats do, not what you want them to do.

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getting rid of ppl who treat that game like barbie online and make it more and more boring (because SE cater only to fluff content and cash shop nowaday) ? not a huge loss imo. but i can agree that anticheat won't prevent ppl from cheating, lot of companies did try and never succeed to prevent it (you can insert csgo anticheat meme here)

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Originally Posted by SillyCrow

So the game shares an internal account ID with the client. If this is not supposed to be seen, that seems like the root problem to me.

• Is this issue going to be fixed?
  
• When can we expect this to be fixed?
  

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No matter how you look at it, the situation is bad and Square Enix has handled it in a mediocre and disappointing way. People make the argument that if you have nothing to hide, there shouldn't be a problem at all. And that is simply not the case for the many people that use social media, go to real life events or want to find people to play with. Having nothing to hide doesn't mean anyone should be able to access your private information. The fact that the game easily facilitates this information makes Square Enix liable for legal action taken against them more than the users who are simply making a tool to scrape the available data.

This problem devalues the community as a pillar of the game even more than Naoki Yoshida and Creative Studio 3 already devalued it with their design blunders. The only way to safely play the game would be completely as an anonymous individual.

Ok, so let's be clear about the situation. The leaked data is already leaked and NO MATTER WHAT, people's information is already indexed in databases. If you have logged in at any point in the past month, they have all of your alts scraped into a database. Legal action does nothing, another repository is created and another discord is created. It does nothing at all.

What are the steps forward to 'fix' the problem?

As user, if Square Enix hides account ID values from now on:
* Abandon your account entirely
* Buy the game again on a new account
* Forbid yourself from saying you play the game at all
* Never go to Fanfests again
* Absolutely never ever mention the name of one of your characters in social media
* Cover all your traces and never link your in-game characters to your personal identity

What can Square Enix do realistically?

Hiding this account ID once more would prevent future data leaks. However, it doesn't help any user whose data has already been leaked.

Square Enix could, after fixing the problem, in theory, do a good thing for their users, and re-shuffle every existing user's account ID value. It would be a pain, but the type of pain that would keep users around. This method also wouldn't truly fix the problem as it would need players to take the regular measures(which are still ridiculous) to preserve their privacy and avoid stalkers in case they need it. But at least this way they get to be relatively as unknown as it was before the blacklist change. Another thing is, even if CS3 took the time to look at these private, crowdsourced databases to attempt and help affected players individually, it's impossible to know what other databases holding leaked data exist.

They should also really stop censoring their Japanese forums, it doesn't look good.

Yoshida says he approves all of the decisions that happen to this live service. So I hope He does the right thing and takes responsibility.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

This post has the same energy as "the only reason to not let the cops search your house whenever they want is if you are a criminal"...

The point that you are ignoring is that there are many examples of how bad anti-cheat is at stopping actual cheating, the people who care about cheating will just figure out a workaround, and it becomes an arms race between cheaters and devs, which devs invariably lose because there is a limit to how much they can do without heavily inconveniencing their actual costumer base, the person you'd hit with an anti-cheat is the guy who wants his Hrothgar to stand upright, the guy who wants his Viera to wear a hat, and yes, even the modbeast who wants their Miqo'te to have a futa shlong longer than her torso, which regardless what pearl-clutching puritans will say, is completely harmless, nothing substantive will be gained, and the game will lose a sizeable chunk of revenue, that's what anti-cheats do, not what you want them to do.

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What you say is true to an extent, but it would do some good. The argument being made here is that an imperfect solution is a non-solution. No, it's an imperfect solution, and perhaps the best that can be done temporarily in order to make it clear what the stance is on the use of these programs. Long-term, it is an insufficient solution, and you're right it will lead to an arms race, and it won't stop all cheating. Square enix doesn't need to stop 100% of cheaters, stopping even 30% with permanent bans may be sufficient to cause others to question whether its worth it.

The other solution is for them to allow addons and to design the game with them in mind. That's an entirely separate discussion. Although, the current creepy, malicious addons would still need to be addressed in some way.

Well, until they have a proper solution the privacy features on the lodestone are effectively useless.

I hope Square doesn’t make the mistake of going after the Dalamud team or Github as they had nothing to do with this issue. The real problem started with the Blacklist overhaul, and legal threats won’t fix it. The devs created this mess, so they should be the ones to resolve it. Even if mods and plugins are banned, bad actors will still find ways to exploit the game.

Pushing for anti-cheat software is also a terrible idea. Does it really bother you that there's people who want speech bubbles in their games, or that there are tools that help those with physical disabilities? As someone who’s played MMOs for years, I’ve seen the backlash and issues these systems cause. When TERA (NA) tried to crack down on plugins and added XIGNCODE anti-cheat, there were players couldn’t even launch the game because it was so invasive. The outrage led to massive player losses and even the removal of their community manager.

ArenaNet made a similar mistake when Guild Wars 2 included spyware that scanned every file on users’ machines, breaking EU regulations. (Source: https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-...pyware-banwave)

And let’s not forget most South Korean F2P MMOs. Even with anti-cheat, they’re still full of bots and cheaters.