Just Delete Picto Please

Interlude

That weird "the matrix is glitching"-feeling when WAR is the lowest-rated tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Interlude

---

This made me laugh so hard, thank you.

That was a very good video.

you are confusing wow forums with ff14 forums. being aggressive does not help anyone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorika

It's not much the ability to be a Rez Machine, but more of a lore problem.
People forget that Red Magic was created by the survivor BLM of Mach and survivor WHM of Amdapor to avoid another sixth calamity.
To do so they tried, and was able to combine both Black and White Magic together while only using personal aether.

So having Heal and raise is more of a Lore problem than anything.

---

It's not really a lore issue. Both Potion and Phoenix Down could very easily be implemented as role/character actions if need be. Raise tax only needs to exist if it's specific to certain jobs and not others. I expect that the devs don't want to get rid of non-healer raises entirely, simply for the reason that it allows players to recover in casual content. It's just a question of implementing it in a way that doesn't create multiple DPS tiers within the same role category.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

It's not really a lore issue. Both Potion and Phoenix Down could very easily be implemented as role/character actions if need be. Raise tax only needs to exist if it's specific to certain jobs and not others. I expect that the devs don't want to get rid of non-healer raises entirely, simply for the reason that it allows players to recover in casual content. It's just a question of implementing it in a way that doesn't create multiple DPS tiers within the same role category.

---

And what do Red Mages and Summoners get instead of rezz? Mind you I already got a way to deal competitive damage: Swap to another job. With how insanely trivial multiclassing is in FFXIV, I'm fine having one button that puts me into "no support, damage"-mode, and another that picks the "more support, less damage"-mode.

Jobs are what specs are in other MMOs. You can only swap them out of combat, and usually only one is damage-competitive, but sometimes you bring others for utility reasons.

Why would you want to effectively eliminate this distinction, at which point there's no reason to have multiple jobs of the same archetype in the first place?

FFXIV jobs are not World of Warcraft specs. Telling casters 'to just play Pictomancer' just doesn't cut it.

Raise is an issue in this game because the devs want it to be readily available on demand in casual content. That's why it's so hard to balance, because there's no real equivalent to this. You either restrict its use (timers, charges) and remove the DPS penalty, or you make it a role action and remove the DPS penalty. Perhaps even both. There are other ways that jobs can differentiate themselves in terms of utility which don't necessarily need to result in different DPS tiers within the same role. PCT itself is a demonstration on how much utility can go completely untaxed.

Different jobs exist because not everyone on the same role enjoys the same gameplay or aesthetics. Forcing players to play a job that they don't want to just to stay competitive is a surefire way to drive people out of those roles, and ultimately the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

FFXIV jobs are not World of Warcraft specs. Telling casters 'to just play Pictomancer' just doesn't cut it.

Raise is an issue in this game because the devs want it to be readily available on demand in casual content. That's why it's so hard to balance, because there's no real equivalent to this. You either restrict its use (timers, charges) and remove the DPS penalty, or you make it a role action and remove the DPS penalty. Perhaps even both. There are other ways that jobs can differentiate themselves in terms of utility which don't necessarily need to result in different DPS tiers within the same role. PCT itself is a demonstration on how much utility can go completely untaxed.

Different jobs exist because not everyone on the same role enjoys the same gameplay or aesthetics. Forcing players to play a job that they don't want to just to stay competitive is a surefire way to drive people out of those roles, and ultimately the game.

---

I agree honestly. I have always been on the side of getting rid of caster rez or making it a role action. I think its dumb to hold smn and rdm back just bc they have a rez and I also think it's dumb they 90% of the time are the default casters that go into the caster role just bc they have rez. It's a similar reason why it's dumb for pct is be considered a must job because its DPS is so high. It creates a lot of problems. Also, I be really honest...the caster rez from my exp usually ends up being wasted or used a lot. Unless you are in a pre-made group with coms, pf healers will auto-rez right away and will either overwrite your rez or you overwrite theirs. The only time I have ever found value in caster rez is when either both healers die or there 3+ players are dead. Even with the 3+ ppl dead part a lot of fights nowadays have body checks and even if you are able to get everyone off the floor the chances are you not going to meet the body check in time and wipe anyway. I think this community overvalues the caster rez and it's time for the devs to rework how it works. It only causing balance issues in the caster role and it been it for several expacs now. If anything, limit the caster rez in savage and ultimates as they did in other content like Criterion Duns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

FFXIV jobs are not World of Warcraft specs. Telling casters 'to just play Pictomancer' just doesn't cut it.

---

No it is actually nearly exactly that.

Just like in WoW, we expect balance between various jobs (=specs) of the same role (=class) here. We can swap between them out of combat, some trade damage or tanking or healing output for some other utility, but overall we expect a rather balanced outcome. Really the only big differences are a) You need to level specs one-by-one here and b) You get very few shared abilities between jobs of one role (compared to specs of one class).

Why shouldn't we compare things that mechanically work the same or highly-similar to other games? Use available data, other games worked these approaches before, we can look at what did and did not work for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

No it is actually nearly exactly that.

Just like in WoW, we expect balance between various jobs (=specs) of the same role (=class) here. We can swap between them out of combat, some trade damage or tanking or healing output for some other utility, but overall we expect a rather balanced outcome. Really the only big differences are a) You need to level specs one-by-one here and b) You get very few shared abilities between jobs of one role (compared to specs of one class).

Why shouldn't we compare things that mechanically work the same or highly-similar to other games? Use available data, other games worked these approaches before, we can look at what did and did not work for them.

---

The main point of specs in ANY system that has it is to allow a player a customized experience with a standardized loadout. That's what spec means: specialization. Ffxiv's job system is the standardized loadout without customization options, otherwise known as not having spec options.

To suggest its our version of "spec" options is obsurd. It's basically the opposite: you get your kit. You have no further choices with your kit. It's like saying League of Legend champions themselves are different specs. It's just ignorance on how the entire system works in the context of mmos and games in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

The main point of specs in ANY system that has it is to allow a player a customized experience with a standardized loadout. That's what spec means: specialization. Ffxiv's job system is the standardized loadout without customization options, otherwise known as not having spec options.

To suggest its our version of "spec" options is obsurd. It's basically the opposite: you get your kit. You have no further choices with your kit. It's like saying League of Legend champions themselves are different specs. It's just ignorance on how the entire system works in the context of mmos and games in general.

---

There might be some word-confusion here.

I'm not talking about the actual talent trees or anything like that, that is, stuff where you customize your spec. I'm talking about picking your spec, respectively swapping to one. And I'm saying that jobs in FFXIV aren't as comparable to classes in WoW or professions in GW2, but rather to their specs respectively.

Mao thinkings is nots so easy to equates specs in WoW to jobs in FFXIV. Once has character max level in WoW, is easy to change specs. For FFXIV, has to level several jobs. That means much grindings and is nots nearly as funs as characters with multiple specs in WoW.

Sune imaginings if grinding dungeons was funs again

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Sune imaginings if grinding dungeons was funs again

---

Would be nice. Just gets rid of DDR and add more random elements. Mao really liked deep dungeons. As for other aspects of game, Mao rediscoverings WoW and realizings just how lackluster gameplay is in FFXIV. Take gatherings for example. In FFXIV gatherings is always same spots and always safe. In WoW gatherings is tricky with differents kinds of nodes showing ups in differents places and always with danger from critters. For MSQs is mostly boring fetch quests and watchings cut scenes in FFXIV. In WoW, MSQs has lots minigames and stuffs to do. Is breaths of fresh airs for Mao agains. Mao actually gets to play the game in WoW. In FFXIV, Mao gets to watch the game. Mao hopings SE makes FFXIV more like a game whats meant to be PLAYED.

don't hold your breath cause this is not going to happen no matter how much you beg

https://x.com/takomi_82_96/status/1872903535735828526
Can any other DPS job do this in any other Ultimate or MINE Savage?

don't worry, it must've been done with a very skilled group and required a lot of coordination to do. No normal group would ever do it so it doesn't matter /s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

https://x.com/takomi_82_96/status/1872903535735828526
Can any other DPS job do this in any other Ultimate or MINE Savage?

---

Yes. Fru's checks are a joke, even without picto.

Now they can just stop making Ultimate fights. As they did say why spend so much time and money creating a Ultimate if people are going to make it easier by using illegal third party tools

Now they have made a funny legal tool to make Ultimate easier and it's called Pictomancer xD

I've never before disliked a Job before, but this Job being allowed to be overtuned for this long has made me really hate this new job, and hope they no longer make any new Jobs and rather focus on the ones they have instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altera

I've never before disliked a Job before, but this Job being allowed to be overtuned for this long has made me really hate this new job, and hope they no longer make any new Jobs and rather focus on the ones they have instead.

---

I think failing to act on an obvious balance discrepancy that players were pointing out for months naturally builds up resentment. I think in the midst of a downward spiral around issues with player retention, they need to really step up and show the playerbase that they're actually listening. The response rate is much too slow for this.

I think at minimum they need to reconsider their job design philosophy, even if it means getting a completely new team on board for job balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RheyIdol

It's a small consolation that requiring pct in your party is basically like admitting you cant make dps checks. But really, I'm so sick of being right about this affront to fun. Honestly, square, just remove the class, its ok, we wont be mad. Everyone makes mistakes, and Picto is simply that; a mistake. Its ok, we can start over. We can rebuild. Just delete it, and we can all go back to a FF where classes actually have function.

But seriously wow, what an awful mess this class is. How many times do I need to reiterate that it's balance is such travesty that it's actually ruining the games fun.

The irony is that I want to play this game but picto makes it harder, unless i choose to give in and swap to it(spoilers; ill never even unlock it)

But hey gee at LEAST ENOCHIAN WAS NERFED BY 1% AMIRIGHT GUYS?!?! PHEW THAT WAS GUNNA JUST BE WAY TOO BROKEN LMAO

Please honestly either nerf the life out of picto or actually buff other jobs.

---

"or actually buff other jobs." - This is a FALLACY. Since 7.0 Every single other job has had a boost of some sort, times 5 emergency patches, Leaving PCT out of that boosting. This was to create "Balance" to make those jobs balanced to the PCT.

I also see that you are a BLM main. Could it be your hatred towards PCT is borne out of jeolousy and not out of any valid argument or testing? (You did say you are not going to ever unlock the job)... Which leads me to the question how would you know what PCT job is all about if you've never tried it?

Lastly, instead of offering anything useful or constructive criticism or feedback (which is the mature thing to do), instead you say to "Delete the job". Why not offer suggestions on how to make it balanced with the other jobs or play well with others? If anyting should be deleted, mayhap your salty, aggressive, sour and un-helpful post should go first? Just a suggestion.

Cowards say "We" when proclaiming their own desires.

I'm not gonna lie a lot of buffs given out to other jobs were really pathetic and there was pointless nerfs to enochian and scattergun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

I think failing to act on an obvious balance discrepancy that players were pointing out for months naturally builds up resentment. I think in the midst of a downward spiral around issues with player retention, they need to really step up and show the playerbase that they're actually listening. The response rate is much too slow for this.

I think at minimum they need to reconsider their job design philosophy, even if it means getting a completely new team on board for job balance.

---

And fight design philosophy. They need to study stormblood and look at those fights. Those fights are how FFXIV should be designed. Sometimes gimmicks, sometimes nonsense. A lot of role-specific mechanics, very little caster movement. If they can also study WoW's tank and healer design, they can fix that problem while they're at it and make tanks more than just binary pass/fail mit bots and healers more than free medica 1 spammers that deal with ever-tighter windows to solve other people's mistakes.

Class and encounter design go hand in hand. Stormblood had a lot wrong, even from a class design perspective (dark arts spam, MCH as a whole, SMN wyrmwave activating on oGCDs, even addle, etc.) But most people remember the class-fight balance being a lot better in stormblood. Modern fight design is driving the trash class design. Classes first, encounters bend to fit classes, not the other way around.

I was gonna upvote but saying that MCH was wrong design wise? Hell no.
I'd also like to go back to before SB encounter design where using our brains still actually mattered, but that's a pipe dream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taranok

And fight design philosophy. They need to study stormblood and look at those fights. Those fights are how FFXIV should be designed.

---

Uuuuh, okay?

That's like, more or less the expansion I'd not want to see the fight-design returned to.

Don't get me wrong, on a historical level it's an important step in the evolution of having actually engaging fight mechanics that keep you busy throughout an 8-14 minutes encounter instead of having a TV show on the other monitor. But they're not "good" encounters nowadays. I think what you actually mean though is that underlying combat system issues need to be resolved (like healers principally casting damage instead of heals, and tanks being more or less just melee DPS without positionals, melee barely being affected by their limited reach and casters barely caring when they have to move, ever). Sure. And bakc in SB this was less of an issue, because we didn't have the overloaded job kits, which is maybe why it feels like design was better there.

But consider for a second how those SB fights would play out if your transplanted modern lvl100 fights into that era. Or vice-versa, if you placed SB-era jobs in modern lvl100 fights. It won't work, because the design is too divergent.

But if we are to assume that beyond even class design, we go all the way back to the drawing board and question entirely central things to the combat system, yeah sure, that'll bring an encounter system probably more akin to what the game felt like SB, though I'd argue it needs way more randomization both on the class (unreliably effects) and on the boss (unreliable sequencing + effects) side. In any case, I mean questioning things such as:

* The GCD in itself. Not the amount. The GCD. As a thing.
* Snapshotting of abilities that hit where you were 0.2-0.5 seconds before, instead of lag-compensation networks that hits where you are. This would go hand-in-hand with the above to allow a far faster (or slower) pace for individual classes.
* Healers not actually healing much. Maybe they ought to. Like, it's nearly as if the role is even named that way.
* Tanks not having to invest much into active tanking. Maybe they ought to. Maybe emnity-vs-mitigation ought to be a constant juggling effort.
* DPSers principally being based on "being able to do my rotation". Instead of constantly, relentlessly, having to fight tooth and nails to get even 80% of it done, having to abort entire sets of abilities for movement, losing combos to disengaging from melee combat, getting hit which interrupts combos and spells, etc etc.

Now, I'm not saying "change all this please". I'm saying that what you say would maybe be better solved by first re-evaluating what type of combat should a game such as FFXIV even want, in the context of having to add more and more expansions.