Ideas on Fixing/Improving Frontline - Balance, Map Design, UI/UX, Objectives

Reduce the gain from killing people... problem solved also most Flank King right now is a total disaster, if you can keep yourself alive in in FL, and getting objectives is more effecient.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Reduce the gain from killing people... problem solved also most Flank King right now is a total disaster, if you can keep yourself alive in in FL, and getting objectives is more effecient.

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I don't see any benefit in making PvP more like PvE.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Reduce the gain from killing people... problem solved also most Flank King right now is a total disaster, if you can keep yourself alive in in FL, and getting objectives is more effecient.

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I don't see how this would help. Personally, I prefer to have objective based PvP , the mode that I like least- usually because it's not easy to balance for- is "last man standing".

That being said- I want to have kills rewarded, I want to encourage active participation. I want people to see that they can't just show up and breathe and win. I don't see why that's too high of a bar.

I would rather go the route that it requires some minimum contribution to get rewards. The thing is- the best system that I saw compared each person's performance against others in in the same job for the same match- even with hundreds of players- so that eliminated some obvious ways of getting rewarded for no contribution.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I don't see how this would help. Personally, I prefer to have objective based PvP , the mode that I like least- usually because it's not easy to balance for- is "last man standing".

That being said- I want to have kills rewarded, I want to encourage active participation. I want people to see that they can't just show up and breathe and win. I don't see why that's too high of a bar.

I would rather go the route that it requires some minimum contribution to get rewards. The thing is- the best system that I saw compared each person's performance against others in in the same job for the same match- even with hundreds of players- so that eliminated some obvious ways of getting rewarded for no contribution.

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Agreed on all points.

Without job-specific thresholds it'll just be a new path to abuse. Like if it was damage-based, you'd have the non-combatants do something like drop a SCH plague and then go hide.

I think the damage reduction in Frontline should be removed or reduced significantly, and I'm someone that plays melee a lot of the time. I was playing Rival Wings earlier today and realized one of the reasons it's so much more fun than FL is that people actually take damage. After thinking back on it I recall FL being significantly more fun when the PvP revamp first launched for that same reason. It feels like you're actually outplaying people on the battlefield rather than just being along for the ride in your team's giant death ball.

Removal of Salted Earth's pull would put a stop to this drk drg ast bs.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You mentioned competitive, and perhaps we have different definitions of it, but even casual CC is not. There is no competition in there. No matter how you make FL more or less hardcore than it is, it will never be competitive.

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Yes. I would say that these "definitions" are indeed different. If you don't consider any game that is PvP "competitive" in nature, regardless of casual or not... that is actually just definitionally incorrect.

Or so you say, but I'm not willing to get into insipid discussions about definitions like it's been for many pages now in that trainwreck of a DRK thread in the tank section.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Or so you say, but I'm not willing to get into insipid discussions about definitions like it's been for many pages now in that trainwreck of a DRK thread in the tank section.

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Insipid discussions? I'm told I specialize in these so will leap in.

One can claim, as SeaJae does, that any PvP mode is definitionally competitive. True, but only semantically. I agree with Valence that any practical definition requires all players to actually compete (typically over something meaningful like a ladder ranking).

The fundamental issue FL faces is that a small subset of premades are trying to top the weekly leaderboards (or pad), a significant middle compete because they are competitive by nature, and a big fat rump are just riding around on horses.

Net result is that most people are unhappy.

Alright, I'll bite. Your definition at the most literal level is right. But when I do jump into FL or casual CC, I don't do it competitively. I don't care if I win or lose. There is nothing to win or lose. I'm not interested in victory or defeat. I will play to win because that's what the gameplay loop is about and I'll try to play my best while chilling or having fun experimenting about, but I'm not going to tryhard and care about any ranking or competition as a contest. I do find it pointless, and people that do it in those modes just puzzle me, which is why I have a very hard time connecting with DRK tryhard abusers, which I do find extremely reminiscent of that guy we have probably all seen in our life jumping into a football game with his little cousins and stomping them to the ground while flexing about it (just have to read the chat when they win really). While any pvp mode is by its definition competitive in nature, my mindset in there is not.

Does this make sense?

I find it rather odd that competitive necessitates a leaderboard. I am interested in winning or losing regardless of whether or not a mode is ranked. I want to keep improving, personally.

This talk of a "gameplay loop" is just odd for me, it's PVP- it's about winning. That doesn't mean that I ignore the differences of being in an environment where I'm in a premade vs a random group. It can actually challenge me more at times, because I want to see if I can do more to help the team win.I will say that I've been in matches where we don't win , but if we make a decent attempt, I've had a good time- but we are fumbling about trying to win.

The problem with people is that they consider a victory a condition for improvement. Defeat is, not victory. Even in actual, high competitive ranked environments. The gameplay loop is where all the choices are made, the good, average and bad ones, that lead to the end result. This is what matters.

Second, there is competitive in that you're competing against random people, and competitive in that you're competing vs people of your actual level or higher. That's just two completely different worlds.

Frontlines is not competitive? No wonder the afk farmers are the true winners. As long is this is the view you'll never be rid of them. I know I harp about everyone only focusing objectives and all. However, if you have a few close games where every team is trying to grab their last 300 points farming objectives isn't that competitive? Like...somewhere within rereading this thread I got lost, and now I'm trying to find my way back to the pack.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

One can claim, as SeaJae does, that any PvP mode is definitionally competitive. True, but only semantically. I agree with Valence that any practical definition requires all players to actually compete (typically over something meaningful like a ladder ranking).

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If I was to take this definition at face value then most of the games that are played are not competitive the moment someone says "go next game" simply because they're not having fun with their current placement at that time. You honestly don't need a ladder in order for things to turn sweaty at the flip of a dime. Things can simply heat up over some small thing that no one should be caring about to begin with. If folks want to compete over the monthly ladder, let them. They're getting their bliss for that moment....honestly, I have no clue why people use the ladder to begin with. It only shows wins but no win rates. You don't get any rewards for being at the top of the ladder. No gil, no temporary titles, nothing. I have to be missing something there. Just saying.

Can you not see the difference between a ladder with an elo system and a quick match casual game and the opponents you're paired against? As long as you'll not be able to accept that players in casual games all have different goals and skill levels and that this creates a very specific environment, then yes, you'll be trying to find your way back to the pack. Trying to make casual modes more sweaty or "competitive" is never going to happen unless you get rid of all the casual population, aka, turning it into a ranked ladder.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Frontlines is not competitive? No wonder the afk farmers are the true winners. As long is this is the view you'll never be rid of them.

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My point is that NA FL is not competitive because of the presence of AFK farmers. To be rid of them, it is not enough to change one's view. Something practical has to be done to be rid of them.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Can you not see the difference between a ladder with an elo system and a quick match casual game and the opponents you're paired against? As long as you'll not be able to accept that players in casual games all have different goals and skill levels and that this creates a very specific environment, then yes, you'll be trying to find your way back to the pack. Trying to make casual modes more sweaty or "competitive" is never going to happen unless you get rid of all the casual population, aka, turning it into a ranked ladder.

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Unfortunately, I don't. I see the devs pushing hard for the casuals while leaving little for those who takes the game serious. This game isn't exclusive to this. I know the difference between and elo match based game and random based game. This game does a poor job of showing it. In your rank games there's hardly a difference between casual gameplay and rank until you reach platinum, and even then you may need to hit diamond or be matched with diamond in order to see any sort of difference. I can accept that everyone has different goals. Some play to have fun. Some play to win. I play to improve. That point is valid. I cannot accept being told this is the only way to play frontlines from solely one view point. Premades are guilty of this. How are casuals any different though? All I'm being told from that group after a few rule changes is screw the win. Play to have fun. My fun is in the moment, not sitting 60% of my games out of fights just to farm, finishing 2nd with only 500/1600 points and saying GG because they didn't place last. How is that type of gameplay fun?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

My point is that NA FL is not competitive because of the presence of AFK farmers. To be rid of them, it is not enough to change one's view. Something practical has to be done to be rid of them.

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That's up to the community. If folks are not able to kick out the afk farmers every game that should be an answer of how folks view frontlines and how they want it to be. It took a few rule changes to get to that point. I suspect it'll take a few rule changes and/or adding incentives in order for that to change.

I'm definitely not saying that one group or the other should yield to make room for the other. But hearing people complain about the random casual base being so "useless" and "xp bots" and "unwilling to learn" is just plain showing an inability to read the room in my opinion. It's gonna be the case in any online pvp game, with casual/quick match modes being overrun by casual gameplay, and lower ranks of ladder being also overrun by headless chickens running all around.

When it comes to DRK specific abuses and whatnot, that's even another story, and directly related to SE being unwilling to do anything about it. Quoting alliance chat from my daily today to illustrate as soon as people understood there was a premade in the other team (red):
- focus yellow so red wins faster
- let them win end end this suffering

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm definitely not saying that one group or the other should yield to make room for the other. But hearing people complain about the random casual base being so "useless" and "xp bots" and "unwilling to learn" is just plain showing an inability to read the room in my opinion. It's gonna be the case in any online pvp game, with casual/quick match modes being overrun by casual gameplay, and lower ranks of ladder being also overrun by headless chickens running all around.

When it comes to DRK specific abuses and whatnot, that's even another story, and directly related to SE being unwilling to do anything about it. Quoting alliance chat from my daily today to illustrate as soon as people understood there was a premade in the other team (red):
- focus yellow so red wins faster
- let them win end end this suffering

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That's something that I can agree on. Too bad that those that needs to learn this are those who are going to accept very little to no criticism.

I'll try not to say anything about premades any longer. I keep saying that every single premade sucks at getting out of sandwiches. Yet most is so determined to get rid of premades entirely just to remove yet another obstacle that's preventing them from freely getting to the objectives easier. Also, I keep forgetting that we willingly accept sandwiching and farming the team who's in last place except when it's being done to them and calling this a valid reason to turning frontlines into 2 teams instead of calling this a legit strategy. What do I know?

I'm going to the corner now.

Honestly, the Custom Match - Frontline option would allow for competitive matches in an event setting, and I think that is probably the appropriate place/method to handle players who seek out that type of play style. I don't think trying to push Frontline more towards a ladder/ranked direction would be a good idea. I do think, as I obviously originally posted, general efficacy on NA/EU could improve and lead to naturally closer matches that feel more competitive, but that's the extent of what I'd every want to see in normal queue matches.

I only want to add the suggestion that there be ranked matches for FL like there are for CC. I think that would be fun, and potentially a lot less aggravating for the players that have no interest or time in dedicating to a ranked system.

Now, I will go hide under my hermit boulder and likely forget that I posted here for several months. ♥

Heres an idea : ban the scripters

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Originally Posted by FROSTEDFLAKE

Heres an idea : ban the scripters

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They already do. The people you're complaining about are either getting banned or it turns out they're a lot better than you are at the game.
You don't want anticheat. No-one who plays the game actually wants to deal with the ramifications of anticheat, especially in a game that you're already at a heavy disadvantage in if you don't have decent ping.