Hate Reset What are your Thoughts?

hate reset wouldn't be and issue if people let the tank get hate when it happens, but people go ape shit and wont stop attacking for a second. lazy players not paying attention make it a pain.

I have nothing against the Enmity Resets used by bosses as a mechanic in the various encounters, I think it just spices things up and creates an extra layer of challenge and gameplay variety. But like so many others have said, there is a limit to how often that stuff should be used by the foe. Some of them don't even seem to have any sort of internal cooldown at all on their Enmity Reset abilities (Skirmish bosses comes to mind). Coincounter in Aurum Vale is an ok example of it being used somewhat well (though he too can have random moments of "Let's spam the Enmity Reset 4-5 times in a row").

As long as it's not so extremely over the top that a tank has little hope of maintaining the top enmity, I think it's fine. When you have to resort to kiting (Skirmish, Golem, and yes that works to an extent) to hold hate, it makes the encounter far less enjoyable and, at least to me, annoying. How should I build enmity when I can't even stop to perform some combos, which already involves moving around the boss for maximum effect. Even a Provoke/Flash can be enough for the foe to catch up and reset hate, and that's with a Heavy effect applied. Not my idea of fun when I am not able to maintain the enmity I've built up.

Off-topic-slightly-related; I also dislike unavoidable incoming hard damage, like Chimera's "Voice of the.." skills. You can avoid Breath skills just fine, but occasionally, Chimera has moments of "Let's spam 'Voice of the...' 4-5 times in a row, which the tank can do nothing reasonable about to avoid", which I find to be unfair(?). Once every so often, perfectly fine, but when they are "spammed" near the end of the fight, back to back, that's just annoying. Wish they'd add an internal table on the skills that the boss has, making it so they're only allowed to use them once every so often. E.g., "Oh, Chimera used Voice of the Ram 15 seconds ago? Ok, he can't use Voice of the Dragon just yet."—As it is, they seem to purely rely on (potential) cooldowns, but other than that, it's random what skill they use.

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Originally Posted by indira

hate reset wouldn't be and issue if people let the tank get hate when it happens, but people go ape shit and wont stop attacking for a second. lazy players not paying attention make it a pain.

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It can be out of laziness but its also the fact in AV you have to Speedrun through it. We had Coincounter use Animal Instinct 5 times in one fight, 3 times in a row. Even if you're paying attention you can't stop an insta-cast Thundara from going off.

Now for Skirmish, the Golem is annoying and the Treant is just..there's no word to describe how stupid that fight is. He's not hard at all, his mechanics are flat out stupid and built in a way to make it "hard" but its not, its simply dumb.

Coincounter and Buffalo have ok hate reset mechanics and atleast they're abilities you can be prepared for. The Paladin fight is annoying because of the randomness of it but you can get hate back easy. The Skirmish bosses completely wipe your hate and you have to run after them Voking/Flashing in hopes of even getting them back into the Yellow.

I think hate reset ability when mobs use it is a very cheap gimmick used to attempt to create something hard.

I think SE could do way better at creating difficulty than relying on hate reset.

I think hate resets are fine.

However, when every boss has a hate reset it sorta screams lazy development. To me anyways.

There are like 3 total NM that uses hate resets.

Personally i think that NM fights that use hate reset actions are a lot more fun. With an experienced group fights without hate reset usually tend to be very monotonic and even boring. Hate reset makes the fight a lot more interesting and requires more attention. On the other hand it IS harder in most cases if people just continue DDing blindly.

I dont mind it and yes it is annoying but players can learn to handle this type of stuff.

I'm just curious out of everyone here whos for hate resets how many your you play whm? & im not asking if you have it, im asking if you play it as a main during things that invole monsters with hate resets. on more than the once off

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

There are like 3 total NM that uses hate resets.

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Coincounter
Manipulated Eye/Manipulated Ogre
Einstien Wyrmblood
Magitek Vanguard (Careless Whispers, Deus Ex Machina, Shadow of the Raven)
Magitek Vanguard F-1 (United We Stand)
Great Buffalo
Bardi
Unknown Soldier
Great Elm
Golem
Whiskerwall Kupdi Koop/Good King Moggle Mog XII

Just the ones I could think of off the top of my head. I'm not saying ALL of these are bad uses, but only a few of them actually add to the quality of the battle.

I'm all for it if it's used with moderation (right now, I feel it is). Otherwise battles will always be formatted and free from ever having to adapt or improvise. The whole experience would be much too smooth, uniform and actually somewhat repetitive without a few "OHSHI--"' moments. I find these enjoyable and especially rewarding when you actually manage to show some skill and pull through in one piece.

I'm not sure the complains sit solely on Hate resets are no good cause the boss leaves the tank here and there, its the mechanics of the hate reset coupled with how tank skills work and how tanks/WHMs/DDs build hate coupled that makes it even more annoying.

If a boss is gonna hissyfit rage around for a bit and start kicking the WHM, when the boss' hissy fit is over, it should remember who had/has the most hate instead of clean whiping the hate and giving Latency, Lagged casting of heals and hate gain cooldowns cause he did it 3 times in a row from blowing away the party.

Hate is a numerical representation of the most threatening person to the boss in the battle. Could call it Con artist mean face! If a boss goes berzerk and swings at anyone. when it comes down, it should be calm enough to remember the threatening guy

Lazy players don't like hate reset, If content really gets challenging and we need more then 1 tank per boss/fight then hate reset works fine and you can learn to balance the hate between the 2 main tanks. I imagine a boss that hits soo hard that the tank needs both divine veil and sentinel to survive. So the 20 seconds when 1 tank has both abilities on cooldown is when the 2nd tank steps up to #1 hate. Learning to balance hate with a 2nd tank is something I look forward too greatly.

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Originally Posted by Tango

Lazy players don't like hate reset, If content really gets challenging and we need more then 1 tank per boss/fight then hate reset works fine and you can learn to balance the hate between the 2 main tanks. I imagine a boss that hits soo hard that the tank needs both divine veil and sentinel to survive. So the 20 seconds when 1 tank has both abilities on cooldown is when the 2nd tank steps up to #1 hate. Learning to balance hate with a 2nd tank is something I look forward too greatly.

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Tryed it on skirmish, made little to no difference.

When it's used in nearly every fight, it's EXTREMELY annoying.

I love it! When ever I put Heavy on a mob who's enmity has been reset... I think to myself, "Boy I sure am clever." It makes me stop hating myself for about 10 seconds.

Why do ppl keep referencing skirmish as a measure for enmity reset? The only part that was difficult seemed to be the tree and that was just a keep on chugging type of encounter.

I would be fine with it if it werent for the fact that every mob that has hate reset also has the potential to wipe out the entire party with one AoE attack. Ifrit Extreme is probably my biggest pet peve with this right now. After crimson cyclone even if you get a running head start theres a decent chance he will land on a group of people and do either a swipe (if you are lucky) and potentially hit half the party for 1200ish damage, or if you are unlucky he will end up using incinerate immediately after landing. None of this would be an issue if we didn't have the crappy server lag that registers you 2 seconds behind where you actually are, but because of this it makes both of these attacks fairly difficult to evade and theres nothing you can really do about it except run and pray. What makes matters even worse is when he does multiple jumps in a row and all of the tanks hate gathering abilities are down from the first time he jumped and theres really nothing you can do but kite and hope to god you don't fall victim to the RNG when his next ability comes up.

The bigger issue with the certain boss designs in this game though is the action rpgesque battle mechanics they have added where you have to dodge AoE spam when the server infrastructure is not optimized for that kind of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Tango

Why do ppl keep referencing skirmish as a measure for enmity reset? The only part that was difficult seemed to be the tree and that was just a keep on chugging type of encounter.

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Since for some people, it's the only things they can do. It naturally become a benchmark.

and tree wasn't even difficult, the trick to fight the tree is not to stand at his rear because it will trigger backhand blow that does 3k damage. If people always stands on his side voila, even my mom on culinary 50 can tank this thing because side swipe only does 1.5k at most.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Since for some people, it's the only things they can do. It naturally become a benchmark.

and tree wasn't even difficult, the trick to fight the tree is not to stand at his rear because it will trigger backhand blow that does 3k damage. If people always stands on his side voila, even my mom on culinary 50 can tank this thing because side swipe only does 1.5k at most.

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Thats kind of a high bar to set though, your moms cooking is a thing of legend.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Since for some people, it's the only things they can do. It naturally become a benchmark.

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At it again eh?
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You go J-Biebs! Do that content they can't do and tell us all about it! I'm sure everyone will think your awesome!

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Originally Posted by Req

Thats kind of a high bar to set though, your moms cooking is a thing of legend.

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That is true! how very inconsiderate of me :(

certainly keeps everyone on their toes in skirmish, I'm OK with this.

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Originally Posted by Tango

Why do ppl keep referencing skirmish as a measure for enmity reset? The only part that was difficult seemed to be the tree and that was just a keep on chugging type of encounter.

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I would probably say people keep bringing up skirmish because it happens in skirmish way more than any other encounter.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Since for some people, it's the only things they can do. It naturally become a benchmark.

and tree wasn't even difficult, the trick to fight the tree is not to stand at his rear because it will trigger backhand blow that does 3k damage. If people always stands on his side voila, even my mom on culinary 50 can tank this thing because side swipe only does 1.5k at most.

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The trick with that trick is the server check on your position lol -- someone can grab hate or the tank changes position and while you were happily wailing at it's side, you are now smacking it's ass without actually knowing it because the position checking happened before you even seen it.

So it's easy to not fight at it's back, it gets harder when the server decides to be slow on checking your actual position which happens more often to people that can't keep it properly positioned.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I don't mind it if used very sparingly. Shouldn't really be something that happens out of the blue, though.

What I would like is more player control over who is on top of the enmity list so that you can then add encounters where the tanks switching mobs would be vital to the raid's success.

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Interestingly enough, I think Provoke used to function like WoW's taunt mechanics where you're automatically thrown a small percentage ahead of everyone in threat when used if you lose focus on a mob. Once the wide-scale changes to the battle system took place this went away for whatever reason. Whether or not this should be the solution to deal with hate resets is hard to say.

As others have mentioned, Coincounter is a good way to deal with hate resets. It tests the tank's reaction skills and the skills of the other party members to anticipate the ability and hold back where needed. Random resets like the Golem in Skirmish (worst fight I think I've ever done in this game) is just ridiculous. Once it resets, good luck getting it back. It's just going to keep chasing white mages.

If used very very sparingly, I think its ok. And there is something to having it used to test a tanks reaction skill. However, I find it to be used far too often and is a bit too gimicky if you ask me. Being a tank this game sort of makes me feel worthless. Maybe I am too old school? But as a tank I already have to deal with the fact that I cant truly protect my allies no matter if I have enmity or not, due to SE's fascination with spamming AoE's and environmental traps. At a certain point its just insult to injury when you tack on mobs that use hate reset (particularly if its more than once).

My ideal vision of a tank would be a class (and battle conditions) that could keep hate with the proper amount of skill and gear. But doesnt have too worry about gimmicks like hate reset. Now if Im not skilled enough to keep hate, or if a BLM or DD is just going crazy w/o any regards to the consequences, then you deserve to have hate all over the place. As far as traps, Id rather they be focussed only on person with most hate (ideally the tank) so as a tank I can feel like Im protecting my party. With AoEs SE still hasnt managed to do a proper job of balance between ranged and melee in my opinion. So either they need to toghen up melees to be able t take a bit of damage or they need to dial back AoE spams quite a bit

BTW, this isnt a "it cant be done that way it works now" argument, this is a "I do not like the way it works right now" argument. Just personal preference, but in older MMOs I played If I held hate it mattered moreand meant more.

I find that it brings an interesting dynamic to the fights and that it is actually quite fun. It can be a pain in the ass when someone is not paying attention, but learn and get it right.

I haven't read the entire thread but as a tank I actually don't mind hate resets. As long as they aren't random.

With the Golem in Skirmish, the hate reset happens when he kicks you. If more players were aware of that and would use Chameleon / Shroud of Saints and the tank reserves a Provoke/Flash to counter that ability then that's fine, it's still in the players' control.

Hate reset in Tanaka XIV was not so great. I think someone had figured it out right before all the enmity changes so it really wasn't that bad in actuality but the simplification of hate accrual and a visible indicator has been a welcome change. Even if you don't like the blinking bar you can notice that you're losing hate if the target's head isn't focused on you even though you have its attention. Little details like that are nice but might not be overtly obvious to the casual player.

All in all hate reset is okay as long as it's not completely random and we have access to abilities to help counter it is my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I haven't read the entire thread but as a tank I actually don't mind hate resets. As long as they aren't random.

With the Golem in Skirmish, the hate reset happens when he kicks you. If more players were aware of that and would use Chameleon / Shroud of Saints and the tank reserves a Provoke/Flash to counter that ability then that's fine, it's still in the players' control.

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Chameleon / Shroud of Saints / featherfoot & a few other have no effect, also a single flash or even a flash + i cant remember the warriors prevoke but i posted it back a while ago make no difference + everything else i listed that they can do.

So but the looks of things its the majority of "Mains" that are tanks & a few DD's who dont mind it & its people who play the majority of "Mains" that are everything else who dont like it or want it to be better/less often/not spammed.
correct me if im wrong? but this so far is how people i've asked in partys have replyed.

I could say horrible horrible horrible things about whoever was responsible for designing the Great Elm encounter in Skirmish... but I'll save you guys the trouble and just say "Don't do that shit again."

^ This is coming from a tank.

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Originally Posted by prymortal

Chameleon / Shroud of Saints / featherfoot & a few other have no effect, also a single flash or even a flash + i cant remember the warriors prevoke but i posted it back a while ago make no difference + everything else i listed that they can do.

So but the looks of things its the majority of tanks who dont mind it & its people who play the majority of everything else who dont like it or want it to be better.
correct me if im wrong?

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Either that or everyone but the tank just needs to stop. The only reason I mentioned they should use those abilities is that more than likely they're in the middle of a cast / server lag that renders the hit before the animation of the foot kick is seen locally. I was, to my surprise, able to get solid hate back on a few occasions on the golem in skirmish after some well timed provokes, collusions, and the rest of my team popping -enmity abilities. His hate reset isn't completely random as some people may think.

Shroud of Saints and Chameleon should drop your hate if you've put some on him after his kick. It just might not drop it enough if you've pulled significantly more hate than what Shroud or Chameleon can abolish.

I'll take you up on your offer to prove it though. I'll see if I can get another group together and take some video, for you could still be correct in that the -enmity skills don't work, but I'm pretty sure the timing of +enmity skills do.

That could be why tanks like it.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Either that or everyone but the tank just needs to stop. The only reason I mentioned they should use those abilities is that more than likely they're in the middle of a cast / server lag that renders the hit before the animation of the foot kick is seen locally. I was, to my surprise, able to get solid hate back on a few occasions on the golem in skirmish after some well timed provokes, collusions, and the rest of my team popping -enmity abilities. His hate reset isn't completely random as some people may think.

Shroud of Saints and Chameleon should drop your hate if you've put some on him after his kick. It just might not drop it enough if you've pulled significantly more hate than what Shroud or Chameleon can abolish.

I'll take you up on your offer to prove it though. I'll see if I can get another group together and take some video, for you could still be correct in that the -enmity skills don't work, but I'm pretty sure the timing of +enmity skills do.

That could be why tanks like it.

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Ok i'd be interested to see what your whm's e.t.c so differently against Golem. A
lso like to see what you do differently against the tree on lockies as tank as theres nothing much different you can do ~ Ref one of my last posts

I'm not going to try to pretend I'm a master tank or anything like that. I just have basic knowledge but I'm sure tanking the Golem and dealing with its hate reset requires two things based on the mechanics of its move.

If the kick is only a single target reset, then having a secondary tank should be all that's necessary to keep him in one spot (if that's how your party wants to fight him.)

If the kick resets hate across the whole party, then everyone stopping and popping -enmity skills while the tank uses +enmity skills should work.

I'd imagine mechanics like these are implemented so that you are positively motivated to have both a Warrior and a Paladin in your party. As it is now, a lot of people just use one or the other and stack mages.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

I could say horrible horrible horrible things about whoever was responsible for designing the Great Elm encounter in Skirmish... but I'll save you guys the trouble and just say "Don't do that shit again."

^ This is coming from a tank.

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its not so bad try having BLM and WHM using only the first line of the combo/heal I found only using cure and not cura helps a ton

Hate reset is terrible, lazy game design. I'm quite surprised people here seem to unanimously hate (hah) the concept.

Even on Coincounter where its done somewhat right it's annoying. If you're going for a 17 minute run if he decides to go nuts with AI it really slows down the battle. The worst I have ever seen was 5 AI's in a row. In addition to this it irks me when he uses AI and then decides to use swing instead of Eye of the beholder. If your in the middle of using your emergency voke to try and get hate back you're caught in animation lock and die. Usually its not an issue but it annoys me to no end. He usually uses Eye but if he doesn't and you were too quick on the voke trigger you get locked.

Regardless, the problem I have with it is that it feels like fake difficulty and that it is overused at this point in time. Everything else has pretty much been said already and I hope the developers take this into account.

the great elm fight is kinda fucked up, even with reserved voke, flash, sentinel and hollowed ground, i couldnt get hate back, and after 30secs+ I managed to get it back only for it to sleep bomb me again and the whole ordeal repeats itself. I managed to cover my mages but I can only cover one and the cooldown doesn't allow me to cover more as the tree plow through everyone.