PvP 7.1

just because you don't bother doesn't mean the rest of us don't. even if you don't care about healing others, it's still suboptimal play if you don't heal them because it builds your lb

the idea that people don't use their heal is completely ridiculous -

on whm, it's amazing lb charge + plus aoe ogcd
on sage, it's literally the big laser
on ast, your micros literally goes off by itself and you are actively trolling if you don't double benefic
on sch, you just setup before the fight and forget about it, plus your lb is literally a healing turret

i have no idea how much experience you have, but the idea that people don't use their healing
abilities, at least in cc, is utter nonsense

people being bad at their classes is not indicative of bad class design, those players are just bad

I'd like to see alternative Limit Break spenders!

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Seiton Tenchu to kill and Raijus to support.
Like I said, I only need a simple coordination from any job with Salience and I can effectively kill a DK I do not recognize
If it is a DK i do recognize and it is a premade, I will mark him then ask jobs that can cast Salience to use Silence asap when they see him.
I will stop his support (BH DNC or Reaper) and Seiton Tenchu the DK if I have the chance.

Also, people are fed up with DK Premade.
If you notify which GC has DK Premade and ask alliance nicely to just focus DK Premade's GC, people are willing to comply
Make DK premade group suffers is what people are looking for now

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Silence doesn't work on purify and neither does it work on Eventide. Any DRK worth their salt will use Purify before jumping in. If they don't, and somehow manage to get bursted down below 50% HP (not a guarantee either), then they deserve it I guess. Seriously, what kind of DRK runs in pants down without purify up?

Meteodrive and Miracle I could see work but considering the extremely tight time window you'd have to drop the DRK low enough, that's literally why I spoke about pin point accuracy and coordination and as a result an effort increased tenfold in comparison to just using DRK combos to get rid of DRK combos.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I do find it a little odd that people want Miracle of Nature nerfed when it's one of the few things that a DRK can't just Purify away (before or after it hits).

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Because Miracle is absolute cancer in CC, especially ranked with people that actually know how to (ab)use it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Silence doesn't work on purify and neither does it work on Eventide. Any DRK worth their salt will use Purify before jumping in. If they don't, and somehow manage to get bursted down below 50% HP (not a guarantee either), then they deserve it I guess. Seriously, what kind of DRK runs in pants down without purify up?

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I can see why you are having trouble with DK
Silence is not stop Eventide, it is prevent/delay DK from using Plunge and Blackest Night and put obstacle to Salted Earth (He is under focus fire from macro)
If Silence got DK at 45% HP, Seiton Tenchu will got him unless he scripted Eventide to auto trigger

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I can see why you are having trouble with DK
Silence is not stop Eventide, it is prevent/delay DK from using Plunge and Blackest Night and put obstacle to Salted Earth (He is under focus fire from macro)
If Silence got DK at 45% HP, Seiton Tenchu will got him unless he scripted Eventide to auto trigger

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I'm not having trouble with DRK and never said to use CC to deal with Eventide. If the DRK is using Eventide it's already too late, the pull has been done.
I'm questioning the logic behind using silence on a DRK that should be using Purify when going in. Are DRKs on JP not using Purify?

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm not having trouble with DRK and never said to use CC to deal with Eventide. If the DRK is using Eventide it's already too late, the pull has been done.
I'm questioning the logic behind using silence on a DRK that should be using Purify when going in. Are DRKs on JP not using Purify?

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Silence is for force him to use Purify to create GCD delate of Plunge and Salted Earth, so melee will have time to react
It never means to stop Eventide
This is also not a IWIN strategy, but it will makes them suffers and no more easy game for them
This is better off than your idea of DK Premade vs DK Premade, it is only makes situation worst and boost their ego

I never said that Silence was to be used on Eventide.
The only moment you can use Silence on a DRK is when they plunge in, else they're just at the back of their team waiting for the engagement to start. If they're behind or within their team, being silenced is meaningless because they're safe, and can safely ignore it (why would they waste purify there?). When they do rush in, they'll have purify up, making your silence irrelevant.
I do not know how to explain it better.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I can also see them gutting most/all heals from WHM/SCH/AST/SGE to give them other tools to use because I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen people healing others in PVP (Frontlines or Crystaline Conflict), and I certainly know that I've rarely bothered to do it.

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Too many people still want healing nerfs. They don't want Recuperate to be spammed despite it being easier to pressure one to death. They don't want to deal with one team having a healer while the rest are dps despite certain dps classes being made more supportive. They want things simple, and despite things being reduced to a 6 button joystick the healing portion is turning a lot off. If all classes were made mainly dps only I can see a group of people quitting for the simple fact that they cannot heal others.

SCH needs more direct damage because its ironically still a PvE job in that front. Or double down on debuffing and support.

Certain limit breaks like RPR and DNC should not have an animation lock so that they can fully utilize it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I never said that Silence was to be used on Eventide.
The only moment you can use Silence on a DRK is when they plunge in, else they're just at the back of their team waiting for the engagement to start. If they're behind or within their team, being silenced is meaningless because they're safe, and can safely ignore it (why would they waste purify there?). When they do rush in, they'll have purify up, making your silence irrelevant.
I do not know how to explain it better.

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It is just just one Silence, it is multiple Silence from all directions
The idea is to force DK to choose to use his GCD on his own survival instead of Plunge and Slated Earth
Purify?
Don't matter
He used his GCD and his HP already dropped, his next option of GCD is still either Recuprate or Plunge
Also, if his hp drop below 50% mark, Seiton Tenchu will get him.

Silence him or let him free of doing anything he wants, which option do you choose?
I am not going to make a DK Premade just to kill another DK Premade

If he used Eventide early?
Don't matter, we are not still not going to let him leave and deny him for obtaining BH.
His survival ability will only slope downward as game goes on.

What makes you think why there are so many DK scripted Eventide nowadays?
Seiton Tenchu is either instant kill or no effect and it should never trigger Eventide.
If Seiton Tench is succuessful but Eventide triggered, it is 100% this DK is scripted

I am not going to make a DK premade just to kill another DK pramade.
It achieves nothing.
DK by default is very pathetic on Frontline but nothing can be done due to Crystal Conflict
Offense, Defense, and Mobility; a tank job should only have 2 of 3 characteristics and DK is the only job ACE in all 3.

lol just because someone else has faster reflexes than you doesn't mean it's scripted. eventide is so responsive that it's actually pretty easy to hit it in response to ninja lbs. I have no idea how fast *you* are, but to some of us, a second is an eternity

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Originally Posted by FatCatEnjoyer

lol just because someone else has faster reflexes than you doesn't mean it's scripted. eventide is so responsive that it's actually pretty easy to hit it in response to ninja lbs. I have no idea how fast *you* are, but to some of us, a second is an eternity

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Not with Seiton Tenchu
It also comes with an animation lock once takes effect, just not as visible as Meterodrive
it only fails when HP is not at 49%.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

It is just just one Silence, it is multiple Silence from all directions
The idea is to force DK to choose to use his GCD on his own survival instead of Plunge and Slated Earth
Purify?
Don't matter
He used his GCD and his HP already dropped, his next option of GCD is still either Recuprate or Plunge
Also, if his hp drop below 50% mark, Seiton Tenchu will get him.

Silence him or let him free of doing anything he wants, which option do you choose?
I am not going to make a DK Premade just to kill another DK Premade

If he used Eventide early?
Don't matter, we are not still not going to let him leave and deny him for obtaining BH.
His survival ability will only slope downward as game goes on.

What makes you think why there are so many DK scripted Eventide nowadays?
Seiton Tenchu is either instant kill or no effect and it should never trigger Eventide.
If Seiton Tench is succuessful but Eventide triggered, it is 100% this DK is scripted

I am not going to make a DK premade just to kill another DK pramade.
It achieves nothing.
DK by default is very pathetic on Frontline but nothing can be done due to Crystal Conflict
Offense, Defense, and Mobility; a tank job should only have 2 of 3 characteristics and DK is the only job ACE in all 3.

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I have trouble following you and it just seems we are just not playing the same games.

Around here DRKs only engage when they're about to suck everybody in, and they don't need more than 5s to do it, which is way enough to cover the whole operation with a Purify. No matter if you have 1 or 10 silences or whatever cc you can imagine, one Purify is enough to nullify them all. Once they have drawn everybody in, if they get crowd controlled to death isn't a problem anymore because they have done their deed and the rest now lies in the hands of the rest of their premade for the clean up, whether they can pop Eventide or not. If you kill them after because they couldn't use Eventide or whatever, then great, but your whole alliance is still dead anyway, which is why they rarely die after the fact in the first place, since nobody is left to threaten them, and whoever is left managed to stay alive with guard or other means somehow and is probably trying to save their live instead of continuing to hit the DRK.

I don't understand why it is so hard to comprehend that Purify is a barrier that will prevent all kinds of normal crowd control like silence, and that the only things that WILL go through are Meteodrive or Miracle, for which I do agree there is a small window to act if you have you whole alliance actually acting upon it and focusing the DRK (which never happens, but perhaps it does on JP idk).

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

What makes you think why there are so many DK scripted Eventide nowadays?
Seiton Tenchu is either instant kill or no effect and it should never trigger Eventide.
If Seiton Tench is succuessful but Eventide triggered, it is 100% this DK is scripted

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Source: dude trust me

Get ninja LB's once and you just adjust. I'd the team is on point what others have said is true. You only have one job, and if you die doing it most your Battle High will be back as you respawn.

As for reacting... I moslty just guess. I can usually hear the audio ques for Sam and see the positioning of warrior to dodge pulls. Monks and ninjas are a little harder.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

It is just just one Silence, it is multiple Silence from all directions
The idea is to force DK to choose to use his GCD on his own survival instead of Plunge and Slated Earth
Purify?
Don't matter
He used his GCD and his HP already dropped, his next option of GCD is still either Recuprate or Plunge
Also, if his hp drop below 50% mark, Seiton Tenchu will get him.

Silence him or let him free of doing anything he wants, which option do you choose?
I am not going to make a DK Premade just to kill another DK Premade

If he used Eventide early?
Don't matter, we are not still not going to let him leave and deny him for obtaining BH.
His survival ability will only slope downward as game goes on.

What makes you think why there are so many DK scripted Eventide nowadays?
Seiton Tenchu is either instant kill or no effect and it should never trigger Eventide.
If Seiton Tench is succuessful but Eventide triggered, it is 100% this DK is scripted

I am not going to make a DK premade just to kill another DK pramade.
It achieves nothing.
DK by default is very pathetic on Frontline but nothing can be done due to Crystal Conflict
Offense, Defense, and Mobility; a tank job should only have 2 of 3 characteristics and DK is the only job ACE in all 3.

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I'm going to ask wher eyour proof is DrK is pathetic on frontline. You can get some sneaky kills as DrK on certain maps. even then DrK can set up wombo combos with just his salted earth. Eventide scales wiht HP so burst him down, force that DrK to use it to survive and boom their LB DMG is very bad. Lets also ignore the fact that BLM out shines DrK in those roles besides their HP being low

Are... are you saying black mage is better than dark Knight? I don't understand your argument here :|

Chucking in my few pennies then.

Don't got many genuine hopes as such. I foresee the "changes" taking the form of a repackaged Borderland Ruins and perhaps Astralagos and calling it new content. Stuff revolving around map variety in places other than CC, which the game could do more with really. Just slightly more ways to engage in PvP.

As far as combat IS concerned though, lot of jobs didn't pick up many new tricks in PvEland, and so a lazy review of what currently exists may deem that nothing really needs to change. For example, RPR, and so long as Gluttony is not reintroduced there's simply no reason to "upgrade" its kit. Or MNK, their Phantom Rush is still relevant. From an aesthetics standpoint anyway. I mean, they could, it's happened before, but at the same time, they don't actually have to. If they wanna be as lethargic (heh) as can be with that for now.

That said... I might appreciate seeing DRK having its kit checked out and revised, if only for the veritable deluge of griping about it to cease. Also, though it may just be me, but the commander wonderland we're seeing right now only really proliferated into fever pitch with the DRK of this moment in time, with one being needed, apparently, every match with their accompanying dorito (or square, or circle, or ignore marker) hat like it's just so. Selfish as it is, I'd rather mass PvP modes move away from that dross. Sooner the better. This has got to be one of the most dull metas (at least for FL) that's ever been seen.

Miracle of Nature on WHM being gone would be nice. Stylistically I've found it jarring since inception that it was on that job, honestly, and functionally it's a bit iffy existing as a non-LB "special" cc. The only one there is, and being constantly wrangled with in terms of where it fits because of it. One of those strange WoW imports, and just because it's there doesn't mean this game needs it too.

The rest is just personal nit-picking. MNK's Meteodrive rendering them into a rat job in this build, SAM's LB just being lazy. But they're not broken, it's just how I feel about them, therefore wouldn't mind if they did change a fair bit. Finally, I'd like to see VPR remain as a straight no frills damage dealer, despite what seems like a cacophony of outcries regarding how the job doesn't really work. Are peeps who immediately cancel LB into Ouroboros three times in a row among those giving feedback? I'd pray not (I skim streams from time to time and believe you me I've seen that and more). Statistics around contextless job popularity and wanton user error don't make for reliable takes. The job's already had a rough enough time in PvE with needless fixes. It's just in wanting of a couple o' bolts tightened up on it, like how fast damage registers on some of its skills.

Kind of like PCT as it is too, though I might be being biased because it has the faintest shades of old RDM, and I very much enjoyed old RDM.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I can also see them gutting most/all heals from WHM/SCH/AST/SGE to give them other tools to use because I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen people healing others in PVP (Frontlines or Crystaline Conflict), and I certainly know that I've rarely bothered to do it.

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Re: healers - Please no. If that's on the table PvP is gonna lose a fair share of its appeal for me. I say that as a multi "main", who enjoys each role (dps/tank/healer) equally in pvp.

CC is the only place where healers are still fun and the fact that they can heal is an integral part why. The resource management of your limited heals and the on-the-spot evaluation of when to spend your charges on damage or healing (in case of Ast/Sch) is incredibly compelling. It forces fast reading of situations coupled with good decision making.

Healing is a strong tool in the hands of the right players and allows for different paths to victory.
If everyone is just a dps then it's just all the same: focus people down as fast as possible on every job.
But with heals/mitigation you get more variety: you can also give your team an edge by keeping (your good) players alive longer, esp. after the enemy dumped all of their precious cooldowns on them but still didn't get the kill.

I enjoy a good dps and tank too. Getting kills out of smart and aggressive DPS gameplay or resilient tanking is incredibly satisfying. It's two different flavours enriching the game mode. Healing adds a third flavour of gameplay I just really don't want to miss.

Hopefully pressing your skill initiates faster than the characters animation need.

I still consider myself pretty new to PvP but I've done the ranked climb, plenty of FL & RW stuff. All I can say is if Miracle of Nature isn't gone in 7.1...that gives me enough evidence to not really hope for anything remotely worth taking seriously for this games' PvP. Why that skill has lasted this long is beyond me but that is gonna be my indication of what to expect from here on out.

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Originally Posted by YouWereIndicted

I still consider myself pretty new to PvP but I've done the ranked climb, plenty of FL & RW stuff. All I can say is if Miracle of Nature isn't gone in 7.1...that gives me enough evidence to not really hope for anything remotely worth taking seriously for this games' PvP. Why that skill has lasted this long is beyond me but that is gonna be my indication of what to expect from here on out.

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You want one of the two actions that counter DRK gone, for what reason?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You want one of the two actions that counter DRK gone, for what reason?

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You're talking about Frontlines...that mode is beyond saving. Balancing will always be centered around CC (which is why none of the jobs scale well with Frontlines with job stacking)
Miracle of Nature is silly in CC and prob even more dumb in Frontlines since there's times I've been polymorphed 2-3 times in a row...no thanks.

Yeah I couldnt care less about Miracle not being usable in FL anymore if it get us rid of that disgusting nuisance in CC.

More rewards added for wolf marks/collars. I could make a Heaven on High with the number of collars I have...