Another rant about S ranks

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Originally Posted by ACE135

The thing is, the vast majority isn't working (together) in any way. They are just there to reap the rewards of the few spawner's work.

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Yeah lol my point is that SE needs to change how the system works.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

3rd party mods are not a gray area and they never have been.

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OK let me rephrase what I really meant by this:

People are going to keep using 3rd party tools because SE has no way to properly enforce a way not to use them aside from a successful investigation after a report, they can never be proactive about it as YoshiP has stated in live letters multiple times.

Because of that, as long as people keep quiet about it and don't report, the 3rd party tools use in hunts is here to stay, that's the point I was trying to make.

If SE is ever going to change things about hunts, it's better not to expect anything about 3rd party tools cuz that's part of a much larger issue

I also personally believe that even if there was no third party tools and no tracking website, people would still get upset at missing a hunt, the stakes are just too high now, cool mounts, cool titles, alternative to running expert roulettes, gear upgrades, therefore pull time would still be an issue

It would just switch from "I missed this hunt because 3rd party tool" to "I missed this because people from X world are mean and dont wait for people in world transfer/DC travel queue"

We can talk about "early pulling" or community rules all we want, but as others said that doesn't really concern SE, unless the offending players are hostile on chat.

A much more relevant issue, is how plugins are leaving console/vanilla players in the dust. Currently, there are several dozen players in each datacenter that, on the milisecond a Dawntrail S rank is pinged anywhere, use a combination of plugins to instantly queue on server transfer without a single player input. Other players who try to queue even 5 seconds later (manual input, or just not staring at the aetheryte) are hit with a 50+ queue. That queue can take several minutes to resolve, and the S rank can die before that.

This issue affects the gameplay of console/vanilla users, who are left with few options. "Spawn them yourself" only goes so far, if you want to finish the S rank achievements anytime soon. Ls/cwls are in decline, with few people volunteering to relink and very few member spaces. Discord notifications are fine but cannot compete with literal plugin automation.

Since most plugins are strictly personal and have no effect on others, SE has silently ignored them. This is a case where they affect others. Is Square going to do anything about it and balance the situation for console/vanilla users?

Perhaps Square cannot/doesn't want to police plugins, for the reasons already stated. Then they should search for other solutions. From investing in faster server transfer infrastructure, to allowing server transfer from *any* aetheryte, not just the city states. Another proposal is to dynamically scale up the hunt hp according to the number of people in the map. We know SE already has this technology, for example the Ttokkrrone and Mica fates are scaled on the moment of pull.
What would be a terrible idea is to restrict/remove rewards from hunt marks. You do not solve a problem by making it so boring that few people would join, that's bad game design. Rather, you search for solutions to make the content interesting and accomodate players that want to join, while also making them do their part. For example, higher hp forcing people to dps instead of hitting once for credit, or make more collaborative S ranks like Narrow Rift.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

3rd party mods are not a gray area and they never have been.



The reason why this content is so contentious is because people use their 3rd party mod information to world transfer earlier than anyone else, making them have an advantage. Then they go and pull the S-rank before anyone else can possibly arrive, making this content extremely frustrating for console players and those that want to follow TOS.

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It's not the hunt mods that giving them that much advantage. Centurio Hunts deliberately taps into the main mod (with the consent and assistance of its developer) to take away the advantage users of the mod have. Some of the Faloop spawners also use that mod so they can relay a spawn as fast as possible. I know a lot of people think that the mods "magically" detect a spawn regardless of where but the reality is that the mod is dependent on someone using the mod being in the correct zone at the time the S rank is spawned. That's not always the case.

The real advantage they have comes from aetheryte camping. They're doing nothing but sitting at one of the 3 main city aetherytes waiting for the next spawn to happen so they can get there as fast as possible. Most other players aren't. They're in the middle of doing other things that they have to stop doing then teleport and load into a crowded zone that's getting even more crowded as others show up for the same reason.

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Originally Posted by JellaW

A much more relevant issue, is how plugins are leaving console/vanilla players in the dust. Currently, there are several dozen players in each datacenter that, on the milisecond a Dawntrail S rank is pinged anywhere, use a combination of plugins to instantly queue on server transfer without a single player input..

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That's not the case.
People are just being lucky to be the first person to be there, get the FiloBot relay, and click the world as soon as they're pinged.
There is player input for getting the relay ping. There is player input on hearing the ping. There is player input on queuing to another server. You're just one of several players who thinks that plugins are worse than the funny austrian painter and that anyone who's performing better than you think is possible is automatically using one.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

That's not the case.
People are just being lucky to be the first person to be there, get the FiloBot relay, and click the world as soon as they're pinged.
There is player input for getting the relay ping. There is player input on hearing the ping. There is player input on queuing to another server. You're just one of several players who thinks that plugins are worse than the funny austrian painter and that anyone who's performing better than you think is possible is automatically using one.

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I regret to tell you, but I'm sadly correct.

I'm a spawner/conductor myself and am very aware of the multiple tools several players are using to get ahead of the queue, and have seen multiple screenshots/videos proving it, as well as people just admitting it on discord. Not sure if I'm allowed to say the plugin names here, but otherwise I don't want to promote them, just draw the developer's attention to them and the harm they cause to console/vanilla users.

I appreciate your candor JellaW. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by JellaW

I regret to tell you, but I'm sadly correct.

I'm a spawner/conductor myself and am very aware of the multiple tools several players are using to get ahead of the queue, and have seen multiple screenshots/videos proving it, as well as people just admitting it on discord. Not sure if I'm allowed to say the plugin names here, but otherwise I don't want to promote them, just draw the developer's attention to them and the harm they cause to console/vanilla users.

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https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...499f98acfe.jpg
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...0bf210d7e3.png
And as you can see on post #23 (And here, with an extra image showing FALOOP'S FOUNDER TELLING PEOPLE TO USE A PLUGIN) in this thread, you are literally no better than them.
Would you like to defend your usage of third party tools to locate hunt marks or are you going to only focus on the players not in your clique that use them?

If you have actual video proof of a player using third party tools to completely automate movement and data center travel as soon as a hunt mark is detected on FiloBot, you can send that to me via Discord. I have already sent you a message to start this conversation off.
Otherwise you are a fearmongering hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

If you have actual video proof of a player using third party tools to completely automate movement and data center travel as soon as a hunt mark is detected on FiloBot, you can send that to me via Discord. I have already sent you a message to start this conversation off.
Otherwise you are a fearmongering hypocrite.

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Fascinating stuff coming from an internet stranger. As we talked on discord, it's true that these automating plugins exist, are used by several people on each datacenter, and block the server transfer queue for several minutes for vanilla/console users that cannot compete with automation.

Further, a simple search of your discord ID around some FFXIV discord servers shows that you know of these plugins, so please spare me the indignation.

Finally, I'm not here to defend other plugins, so your silly trap with screenshots isn't going to work. If Square suddenly decided to enforce their ToS regarding plugins, I would be fine with it.
The only thing I say, is that personal plugins, although not ideal and clearly against ToS, have no effect or harm on other people. That's why Square is ignoring them. But there are a few plugins that limit the gameplay of console/vanilla users, as I explained on my previous post. Is Square Enix ok with that?

Since yelling at the plugin developers probably isn't going to work, my only option is to talk about them here.

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Originally Posted by JellaW

Finally, I'm not here to defend other plugins, so your silly trap with screenshots isn't going to work. If Square suddenly decided to enforce their ToS regarding plugins, I would be fine with it.
The only thing I say, is that personal plugins, although not ideal and clearly against ToS, have no effect or harm on other people. That's why Square is ignoring them. But there are a few plugins that limit the gameplay of console/vanilla users, as I explained on my previous post. Is Square Enix ok with that?

Since yelling at the plugin developers probably isn't going to work, my only option is to talk about them here.

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I'm not afraid of being doxed, and I don't condone the usage of full automation software.

You're deliberately leaving out the fact that several faloop spawners either use: a program that is predominantly used by a group of XIV players to unfairly rank everyone who has participated in a certain duty against each other and a plugin within it that is predominantely used to call out mechanics so that they don't have to learn the fight themselves; or the very same game plugin that the spawner community acts outraged at the mere existence of.
Have you made sure that that warrior in your static isn't using that callout feature so that they don't have to learn the raid as much as you?

It's an arms race in trying to be the first person to the hunt mark and your group not immediately posting hunt marks that are found impacts console/vanilla players unfairly - in your own words - "Since yelling at the plugin developers probably isn't going to work".

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

I'm not afraid of being doxed.

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Doxing? Looking up my static? Now this is bad quality bait.

I made my points about automation, and that I would be fine if Square Enix enforced their Terms of Service for once. On your last point, our spawner group goes out of its way to share hunts with everyone. And that includes recommending not using these automating plugins, to give a fair chance to console/vanilla players too. Sorry for ruining your conspiracy theory.

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Originally Posted by JellaW

Looking up my static?
On your last point, our spawner group goes out of its way to share hunts with everyone.

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I only called out your Warrior because they're dumb enough to have the same name for their FFLogs account as their IGN.

And you know that's a lie. You (Faloop) have considerable input delay on releasing hunts that goes beyond the reasonable delay you'd expect it to take of a person in the community to click the spawnpoint of an s rank on a map.
A console player in a hunt LS/CWLS that has someone who links FiloBot relays will have a fairer chance at getting to most hunts than a vanilla player in your discord.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

And you know that's a lie.

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Sorry, we aren't here to wage your war against community discords.
Once again, you ignore the points I made: even someone in those linkshells getting Centurio relinks (which we both know come from plugins) still cannot compete with automation.
Those console/vanilla users in the linkshells will still be blocked on server transfer queue by dozens of people automating the transfer, teleport and instance change. They are left with no options, and to trust the automating players will not burst down the mark.

Investing in faster server transfer infrastructure would help alleviate this issue.

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Originally Posted by JellaW

Fascinating stuff coming from an internet stranger. As we talked on discord, it's true that these automating plugins exist, are used by several people on each datacenter, and block the server transfer queue for several minutes for vanilla/console users that cannot compete with automation.

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If these plug-ins are intentionally creating transfer queue issues, have you reported them (the plug-ins, not the players) to Square Enix for investigation?

Square Enix is more than happy to look the other way for most mods/plug-ins because they are more informational/visual to the individual player (for instance those that change HUD appearance without displaying additional combat information meant to be hidden from the HUD). Even the hunt mod that so many like to worry about is more informational in nature than anything else, primarily acting as a substitute linkshell for relays in the current hunt client.

But SE will go after the others that that cause disruption to the game and/or create significant unfair advantage. They definitely would be interested in knowing about one that disrupts transfer queues.

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As an aside to both you and LibitIncarne - in the long run, you're both on the same side. You don't need to be at each other's throats. Yes, there's massive hypocrisy going on at Faloop with the "requires manual input" excuse being used to whitewash what happens behind the scenes with many of the vetted spawners. Quite honestly, that's up to the Faloop community to address internally. While some of their spawners are using the plug-ins, etc. others are not. Not everyone there is guilty. Some of them simply like using the Faloop app for tracking more than they like using Bear Toolkit. Or they're like me. They mostly keep their distance from Faloop but retain reporting privileges as a backup in case other Faloop reporters aren't available to report spawns and kills. They're more interested in helping to keep the community informed than getting involved in the drama.

The Faloop app/Discord is still a tool to help the community, same as Centurio Hunts Discord and Bear Toolkit. Hunters are free to choose between which they prefer to use (or even use both) to track and send/receive relays outside of the game's linkshell network.

What's important is that the community need to recognize that Square Enix sets the game's rules for the Hunt.

Faloop does not. Centurio does not. Linkshells and other player organized communities do not. They can only set rules for who they will accept as members.

As far as Square Enix is concerned, the Hunt is kill-on-sight content. Hunt marks may not be used for MPKs. Players may not reset hunt marks already engaged by other players. Pretty much anything goes outside of that as long as it's not a clear cut violation of the ToS.

If someone wants to pull a hunt mark as soon as they're in attack range, they can do so regardless of what other players plan to do. There is no requirement to wait. There is no ownership of a hunt mark allowing one player to tell others what they may or may not do. It is open world content, and that means it's open to every player regardless of their playstyle.

Thank you, but again this isn't the place to argue about community organization. If anything, every datacenter is different, and each community is entitled to organize between themselves.

Rather, I wrote here regarding a gameplay disadvantage for a sizable amount of players, due to the actions of others, and offering feedback to the developers in how to mitigate it. Commenting on hunting communities is a distraction from that.

I'll look into reporting those automated plugins, ty.

some things never change they just get worse and now the company steps in to make it even worse will watch and see how bad it gets.

I didn't read a single post besides OP, but it's overworld content, if you miss it tough luck; you are not owed an achievement completion.

Good luck! It's a jungle out there.