DRK needs more self-sustain in dungeons

FFXIV Community: "Stop homogenizing the jobs!"

Also FFXIV Community: "All tanks should be exactly the same!"

There's only 2 ways to look at it when I play DRK especially if the run is pretty rough.

Either I am playing bad OR the healer is. Or if you're really unlucky the DPS make the healers life incredibly difficult.

Reading your post at the beginning said plenty. You got stuck at a boss because your healer was awful. Now to back this up properly. I have a very good friend who also happens to play Tank and Heal. An in some cases we feel like we spoil one another because we do well together.....but if she wants to play DPS. I have to think more about what I'm doing. Am I dealing with a good healer or a bad one? To be really blunt and somewhat mean here. It becomes glaringly obvious when I have a bad heal. So I'm left with 2 choices.

1) Play it slower so we get through it.
2) Or deal with the struggle an hope I rotate my cooldowns well enough to compensate for the problem.

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Originally Posted by Althanash

Am I dealing with a good healer or a bad one? To be really blunt and somewhat mean here. It becomes glaringly obvious when I have a bad heal. So I'm left with 2 choices.

1) Play it slower so we get through it.
2) Or deal with the struggle an hope I rotate my cooldowns well enough to compensate for the problem.

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Dungeons should be harder to complete when playing with bad players. Not impossible, but harder. That's the point of getting good: to make things easier. It shouldn't be: oh both dps and the healer suck so I'll just solo this because it makes no difference. The roles are there for a reason and it should be noticeable when performance in one role is lacking. It should take thought to compensate for other people's shortcomings.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I personally liked the endwalker balance of GNB being stronger across the whole fight while DRK was stronger in burst windows and fights with downtime

Regardless with the current design of tanks it basically has to be: DRK/GNB for damage tanks and PLD/WAR for defense support tanks. But they only ever seem to balance for DPS.

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Ironically, despite people still complaining, specifically DRK players, 6.4 was nearly solid on tank balance. WAR only surpassed DRK's damage at the average level, thus keeping the latter's burst in check. The only strangler was PLD, which they still seemingly punish for its "range flexibility." I'll never forget that comment in the 6.3 job changes because it highlights perfectly how they don't play jobs properly since anyone who plays PLD knows how rigid the magic rotation is.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Ironically, despite people still complaining, specifically DRK players, 6.4 was nearly solid on tank balance. WAR only surpassed DRK's damage at the average level, thus keeping the latter's burst in check. The only strangler was PLD, which they still seemingly punish for its "range flexibility." I'll never forget that comment in the 6.3 job changes because it highlights perfectly how they don't play jobs properly since anyone who plays PLD knows how rigid the magic rotation is.

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The problem with 6.4 was that you required the perfect party composition to get anything out of Drk.
War never should have been buffed in 6.4. The patch before that was almost perfect though. PLD and GNB needed minor buffs.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Dungeons should be harder to complete when playing with bad players. Not impossible, but harder. That's the point of getting good: to make things easier. It shouldn't be: oh both dps and the healer suck so I'll just solo this because it makes no difference. The roles are there for a reason and it should be noticeable when performance in one role is lacking. It should take thought to compensate for other people's shortcomings.

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An therin lays the problem. People don't like it when it gets harder. An many don't want to get good. Dungeons aren't particularly that difficult. I just find them tediously long. I've got no issue compensating for a shortcoming when it presents itself. I've had to do it even for friends.

Note: Quote my entire post though please. Not snippets. Context is important.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The problem with 6.4 was that you required the perfect party composition to get anything out of Drk.
War never should have been buffed in 6.4. The patch before that was almost perfect though. PLD and GNB needed minor buffs.

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No, it didn't. Even as low as 40%, Dark Knight still remained top of the list in both aDPS and cDPS. Which are the better metrics for job comparison, and tanks in general.

You mean the patch (6.35) where Dark Knight was so oppressively strong it had more clears of TOP than almost all three of the other tanks combined? Yes, let's buff 6.35 Gunbreaker... the second strongest tank that was only a 100 or so DPS back of Dark Knight. I've explained this to you in several posts now and you refuse to acknowledge it; seemingly reading what you want instead of looking at the data itself. FFlogs shows that, no, 6.35 was anything but "almost perfect." There's a reason even after the Warrior buff in 6.4, Dark Knight was favored in any form of optimization. In fact, let's break now the supposedly maligned Dark Knight of 6.4.

Kokytos: 53% (GNB 35%)
Pandaemonium: 27% (GNB 33%) (WAR 32%)
Themis: 40% (GNB 30%)
Athena: 58% (GNB 21%)
Pallas: 30% (GNB 31%) (WAR 26%)

So it only trailed in two of the five fights; one being by a single percentage. And in two others was so dominate, it was literally being brought twice by some groups.

Like I've said in multiple posts responding to you now, Dark Knight cannot be stronger at a base level because of how insanely powerful its burst phases are. Which is why it pulled so dramatically ahead of every other tank throughout most of Endwalker. 6.4 finally accounted for that by essentially making it so a half way decent Dark Knight who simply played into raid buffs could match or surpass Warrior regularly. Which is actually "almost perfect." Now yes, if you were in a mostly selfish comp, you might struggle from time to time but that isn't unique to Dark Knight. Nevertheless, it didn't need a full meta comp to perform well.

What it boils down to is you have to choose. Do you want multiple hard hitting oGCDs that lead to a busy burst phase every two minutes or do you want a somewhat bland "unga bunga" Fell Cleave spam? The former means your baseline is lower at first glance and requires you to properly play into raid buffs, albeit not perfectly. While the latter is easier but can be argued as boring. You can't have both.

Now for clarity, all of this is mostly speaking about Endwalker and backing up my position that 6.4 was very nearly solid. When it comes to Dawntrail, Dark Knight does actually need a buff. It should be ahead of Warrior in aDPS, and arguably even Gunbreaker considering how ridiculous Great Nebula is. Ironically, if you swapped DRK with GNB, then GNB with WAR. You'd very nearly have it. A smidge of a buff to WAR's now weaker output and a bigger one for PLD and everything would be perfect.

To be entirely honest I don't actually view DRK as unsalvagable this expansion, I like Scarlet Delirium, and I like Disesteem.
I think the MP just needs to be fixed, and it needs a 30s oGCD to fill the gap plunge left, and whatever other potency adjustments put DRK where it belongs DPS wise.


My ideal 7.05/7.1 DRK update would be:
Carve & Spit / Abyssal Drain: 30s CD with 2 charges
Bloodweapon Restores 1k MP per stack
lv 96 Enhanced Delirium increases Delirium MP from 200 to 400 per hit

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Originally Posted by Althanash

An therin lays the problem. People don't like it when it gets harder. An many don't want to get good. Dungeons aren't particularly that difficult. I just find them tediously long. I've got no issue compensating for a shortcoming when it presents itself. I've had to do it even for friends.

Note: Quote my entire post though please. Not snippets. Context is important.

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The people who lie on the floor dead while the tank soloes everything also find that tedious, and have complained about it. That's what the OP wanted "fixed", they clearly stated they want to solo things on a DRK while the rest of the party is dead. No thank you.

I will continue to quote snippets whenever the rest of the post provides no relevant context for the part(s) I'm responding to.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The people who lie on the floor dead while the tank soloes everything also find that tedious, and have complained about it. That's what the OP wanted "fixed", they clearly stated they want to solo things on a DRK while the rest of the party is dead. No thank you.

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Dark Knight can already do this too.
I view this as a format problem, and I truly think the answer is as simple as giving everyone the ability to res in normal content (and only in normal content), just like in a Variant or Criterion Dungeon.
The healer dying, especially in non-res caster groups is way too impactful for causing wipes. Especially for DPS who cant sustain themselves through raidwide damage.

This changes the dynamic from tank solo to tank resses the healer and everyone moves on from there, and we don't even need to nerf anything to achieve this.

DRK absolutely does not need more sustain. DRK needs its MP economy fixed and probably some damage buffs.

I reckon a TBN pop should reduce the cooldown of Abyssal to 30 seconds. Abyssal is barely anywhere near as good as raw int let alone bloodwhetting and I have no idea why they paired its cool down with carve and spit except they both give MP.

Would be nice to have dark arts back and actually have normal sustain like any other tank does. Shadowbringers redesign was one of the worst ones with it suddenly borrowing from Warrior for some reason but being worse in every way because of the use of shields instead of self healing. And if anyone wants to doubt this, I'm certain we can easily recall which tanks were the ones showing up in the dungeon queues the most during week 1 and 2 of this expansion. (To be fair, DRK and GNB had aggro problems, though)

The only reason DRK even exists at all right now is the job aesthetics. If someone boiled all these down to the actual moves and how they function no one would touch it.

Also heavensward jobs are just cursed.

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Originally Posted by CamuiKushi

I reckon a TBN pop should reduce the cooldown of Abyssal to 30 seconds. Abyssal is barely anywhere near as good as raw int let alone bloodwhetting and I have no idea why they paired its cool down with carve and spit except they both give MP.

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Its a shame its so hard to buff Abyssal drain due to them stapling it to Carve and Spit as if its Upheavel/Orogeny

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Dark Knight can already do this too.
I view this as a format problem, and I truly think the answer is as simple as giving everyone the ability to res in normal content (and only in normal content), just like in a Variant or Criterion Dungeon.
The healer dying, especially in non-res caster groups is way too impactful for causing wipes. Especially for DPS who cant sustain themselves through raidwide damage.

This changes the dynamic from tank solo to tank resses the healer and everyone moves on from there, and we don't even need to nerf anything to achieve this.

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I saw someone suggest Pheonix Downs work in normal content. Perhaps something like that (depending on your fellow players) would be preferable to a "Healer gets up for free" button?

I'd like those healers to actually learn how to play after 90 goddamned levels of progression rather than being coddled further with a free carry just because 'it's MSQ bro'.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The people who lie on the floor dead while the tank soloes everything also find that tedious, and have complained about it. That's what the OP wanted "fixed", they clearly stated they want to solo things on a DRK while the rest of the party is dead. No thank you.

I will continue to quote snippets whenever the rest of the post provides no relevant context for the part(s) I'm responding to.

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That is not at all what I said. I never said I should be able to solo the boss while everyone waits.

I said I wanted to be able to keep my party alive if my healer dies. I also said that that's a crappy thing to want and healers should be more relevant overall, but the state of the game is as such that healers are irrelevant if you're playing any other tank. I can't tell you the number of times I kept my DPS alive as PLD healing them with Clemency after a healer death during a boss in a dungeon. Every other tank can sustain their party in a dungeon like that in some way in this situation. DRK can't. That's what I want changed.

Don't put words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

That is not at all what I said. I never said I should be able to solo the boss while everyone waits.

I said I wanted to be able to keep my party alive if my healer dies. I also said that that's a crappy thing to want and healers should be more relevant overall, but the state of the game is as such that healers are irrelevant if you're playing any other tank. I can't tell you the number of times I kept my DPS alive as PLD healing them with Clemency after a healer death during a boss in a dungeon. Every other tank can sustain their party in a dungeon like that in some way in this situation. DRK can't. That's what I want changed.

Don't put words in my mouth.

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I did not. You didn't say party sustain, you said self-sustain.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Both of these are macro problems that will require more than just a simple patch to fix, and I get that. And so, in the meantime, what can be added in a patch is self-sustain abilities for DRK. With the game being as it is, DRK needs to be beefed in such a way to survive in a dungeon environment, because they are the only tank who cannot.

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If you are also asking to be able to indefinitely heal the rest of the party in addition to yourself, that's even worse. No tank should be able to do that.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I did not. You didn't say party sustain, you said self-sustain.

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Any reasonable person would read the story in my post and know what I meant. But you didn't read the actual post. You stopped at the headline and kneejerked to butthurt.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

If you are also asking to be able to indefinitely heal the rest of the party in addition to yourself, that's even worse. No tank should be able to do that.

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Yeah, that's PLD's Clemency for you. Indefinite heals. For free. Doesn't at all take a crapton of MP to cast nor require skill to manage your MP over long periods of time if you're trying to keep three people alive with it. You're basically just a second healer, really. That's absolutely and definitely what I'm talking about and 100% what I want.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Yeah, that's PLD's Clemency for you. Indefinite heals. For free. Doesn't at all take a crapton of MP to cast nor require skill to manage your MP over long periods of time if you're trying to keep three people alive with it. You're basically just a second healer, really. That's absolutely and definitely what I'm talking about and 100% what I want.

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And that should be nerfed too and made into "not indefinite free heals". DRK can get through dungeons just fine with the help of a healer, there is no excuse to not bring the rest of the tanks on their level.

As long as one tank (DRK) can't indefinitely heal the whole party and still clears content at all levels, people can't claim self-heals and party heals on a tank are mandatory. One bad run doesn't change the fact that DRKs are perfectly viable.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

And that should be nerfed too and made into "not indefinite free heals". DRK can get through dungeons just fine with the help of a healer, there is no excuse to not bring the rest of the tanks on their level.

As long as one tank (DRK) can't indefinitely heal the whole party and still clears content at all levels, people can't claim self-heals and party heals on a tank are mandatory. One bad run doesn't change the fact that DRKs are perfectly viable.

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I was being sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

I was being sarcastic.

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Well you described the current state of PLD which has been used to heal the whole party in ultimate without a healer so it's kind of hard to tell.

If you do not want indefinite heals, you already have that. Put TBN on your party members to help them survive unavoidable aoe damage.

Hell yeah.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Note that I am not advocating for self-sustain to be taken from other tanks; I'm just giving an example.

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I am. Tanks shouldn't be able to do on content dungeons without a healer. It's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by SapphireWeapon

Saying there should be more than one way to revive a dead healer isn't tantrum-throwing lmao sensitive much

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That has nothing to do with the quote and the tantrum part was related to something completely different from the revive issue. It's even on a different sentence. What do you mean? Obviously, it's my fault in the first place for trying to talk to someone who can't read or reason on a basic level, so I'll leave it here since I've defended the same argument as you in your first post but you haven't even realised that because you are too busy not trying to understand and coming out on top.

Nerf tanks sustain already.