Dawntrail graphics update is very disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Gortys

The irony of telling people to not share opinions based on literally nothing on a public forum. Do you work for SE? Were you intimately involved in the decisions of how to release the graphics patches?

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No, I was telling you not to just up and insult strangers based on nothing. Don’t give me that nonsense. Just keep your insults to yourself! There’s no irony here.

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Originally Posted by remiff

This is not a trick question, it is simply a fact that whether they release the full graphical update or not, it makes absolutely no difference because it is simply an HD texture I have said it before and I repeat it, the developers have told us this for already 2 years and we knew what to expect with concrete examples on various PLLs.

They repeated it to us constantly, and yet no one complained about the graphical update and its phased implementation.

People were generally happy, and yet everything was as clear as crystal in the explanations.

Whether it is complete or not at release, why is it a problem since it is just a texture pack and some reworked weather/shadow/light effects?

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I showed this gif on page 2 of this very thread.

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

https://i.imgur.com/6JxiItT.gif

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I’ve never seen a HD texture pack change the whole geometry of a face before. What they showed us at panels was in many cases nothing like what we got. And even if it was simply a “texture pack” update, why would rolling it out finished vs unfinished and bit by bit not matter? Why have you simply decided no one was concerned about a phased implementation. Anecdotally? And why would it matter when what we received didn’t align with what we were shown and peoples expectations weren’t met by the first phase to begin with? If even splitting the work into phases didn’t allow them to produce the quality we expected, why shouldn’t we feel that they should have taken more time before releasing it? Why wouldn’t people who weren’t concerned initially not be entitled or inclined to reevaluate their opinions? This is all pretty natural. I’m sorry but you’re not really making a very cohesive argument.

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Originally Posted by remiff

I am not defending them, I am simply repeating what they have been telling us for the past 2 years.
I never said that the graphical update was completely successful, and I never said there were no issues
—I actually pointed that out in my previous message.

We simply already knew what to expect, it's not like they hadn't shown us examples from the beginning.
Yes, some features of the characters and races didn't turn out 'successful,' but they will certainly be corrected someday.

They made a statement after the complaints about the benchmark release,
saying that they would work on improving the characters before the release of Dawntrail and afterward.

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The thing is that we clearly didn't know what to expect. I was confident the graphics update would be all good because we had a ton of PR shoved down our throats.

In the end, we only got to see character update previews a total of three times during the entirety of Endwalker, and only on select faces. Usually the Face 1 option.

They told us we'd see them every step of the way during the 10-year anniversary stream. What we got was a few still images in ideal lighting in Old Sharlayan at 3/4th angle views. And, what's worse, when you actually looked closely at the models from the EU fanfest compared to the first benchmark, you could see they hadn't changed at all in that time.

They told us twice that they would keep character impressions as close as possible. What we got now is certainly not the case for many, many options.

A dedicated JP player in their forums managed to dig up an interview about downgrading the models from 1.0 -> ARR, and how they had aid from a CN team and gave them very strict and precise guidelines on each detail for the model adjustments.

They were clearly successful in keeping the impression the same then, because people have been comparing 1.x and 2.x models for years, and the only differences are their textures and polygon count, not their facial features. I'm not going to theorize why they weren't able to do that for 6.x -> 7.x, but it's confusing and feels bad.

Instead of addressing that they clearly failed a fair chunk of the playerbase, we just get more PR. The lighting is ass in the first benchmark? Oh, that only affects the character screen! Ignore the fact that it's present in the benchmark test itself--the thing that serves as an example of the gameplay--and is also present in all of our current (at the time) image and video previews!

The housing lighting update for 7.05 is also definitely just another thinly veiled general lighting update. They just refuse to be upfront and it sucks.

I mean, I'm also choosing to believe they'll continue updating characters through 7.x patches, but it's hard for me to not feel really bad for all the users who feel the need to hide their character's face or unsub because they lucked out far worse in the "upgrade". It'd be nice to get an official acknowledgement and not more PR to ease some concerns.

I know you're tryin' to keep people calm about it, and that's fair. But, I mean, they didn't even communicate when Hrothgar ears were missing. Yes, they decided that was apparently worth it for the new hairstyles, but that just seemed extremely out of character for their usual quality control? People had to talk about it for four months only for them to silently fix it in the next main patch...

That's kind of awful. Why not give them a single dedicated post to let them know they're working on it? It all feels similar to then, but on a much larger scale. They need to address the situation again and honestly outside of a footnote.

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Originally Posted by remiff

I don't understand how people can complain about a graphical update that was announced as incomplete, as it will continue through patches 7.x-8.x, etc. Moreover, they already made it clear from the start what to expect.

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They made it sound like Dawntrail would have the update and older content and NPCs would come later.

Lots of things in Dawntrail are pixelated and look bad.

We don't have a very clear idea of what is done and what's being worked on. We can probably speculate that gear sets with two dye channels are done, yet some of them still have pixelated textures. This makes it very reasonable to complain despite the graphics update being incomplete.

I miss 1.0 moving clouds... https://cdn.betterttv.net/emote/5e0f...b8a489/1x.webp

I'm under the impression that Dawntrail was released too early, I think that juggling graphical updates with a full expansion story wasn't a good idea. Obviously I'm not the boss, this is what Yoshi-P thought was best for his team, but it just feels like not enough time and effort went into even the first iteration of this update.

Speaking strictly character graphics - I followed conversation closely during the Benchmark period and noticed that not much of the feedback was touched upon outside of very universal problems like the Miqo'te/Lalafell teeth issues or the few minor adjustments. There are still things that were not touched since the April benchmark, faces that still look completely different, odd changes that still remain (not to mention the scary facial expressions). Of course, April-June is not a lot of time but following that transparent statement released on the Lodestone, you would have thought that more attention would have been directed at that area of development.

As for environment, it definitely feels more poor to me. Outside of my personal distaste towards higher-poly realism over artistic graphics and speaking as a consumer rather than an individual - wouldn't it be considered wrong for me to look at 6.5 screenshots and think "pretty" but look at 7.0 screenshots and think "ugly"? Cutscenes have been altered to the point of a mood shift, shadows and lighting play in unnatural ways, skies aren't the same as before, fog is too heavy, the floors are too dark or really shiny, etc. I would be very satisfied with the old graphics, but obviously we won't get them back.

I believe that we need to receive some full transparency on the matter. Changing the graphics of a game that has existed for 10 years isn't a small thing, it's something that can irreversibly change the previously beloved and familar aesthetic. I understand that there may be some limits on what the development team can share with the public, but with the state it released in and with the way that things are right now, it feels like a level of trust has been lost.

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

I was pointing out very specific things about lighting in cutscenes and the detail and complexity of the new models. I said nothing about the MSQ, story, Wuk Lamat or even about the overall impression of the new graphics as a whole. Could you please go back through and re-read my post? I really feel like you just read my last statement and responded to it without reading anything else I said.

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That last paragraph was not directed at you. :'D

Unless you think of yourself as "people".

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Originally Posted by Gortys

You all would have whined that it was taking too long if they did wait. Have some self awareness.

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In this community of whiny entitlement?
Good luck with that. :'D

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

They were clearly successful in keeping the impression the same then, because people have been comparing 1.x and 2.x models for years, and the only differences are their textures and polygon count, not their facial features. I'm not going to theorize why they weren't able to do that for 6.x -> 7.x, but it's confusing and feels bad.

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Most likely due to the new rigging.
Meshes may or may not work well with a specific way of rigging the bones for animations. So changes around the mouth would be something I'd expect.

Though that does not explain changes to the nose on Miqo Face 4, since that does not move during animation. Or the shiny lips that now always look like chars wear gloss.
These were most definitely aesthetic design choices.

Ultimately, one needs to keep one thing in mind: this is THEIR game, not ours. If they think "it looks better this way, closer to our original design intent", we're SOL and just have to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

That last paragraph was not directed at you. :'D

Unless you think of yourself as "people".


In this community of whiny entitlement?
Good luck with that. :'D
Most likely due to the new rigging.
Meshes may or may not work well with a specific way of rigging the bones for animations. So changes around the mouth would be something I'd expect.

Though that does not explain changes to the nose on Miqo Face 4, since that does not move during animation. Or the shiny lips that now always look like chars wear gloss.
These were most definitely aesthetic design choices.

Ultimately, one needs to keep one thing in mind: this is THEIR game, not ours. If they think "it looks better this way, closer to our original design intent", we're SOL and just have to deal with it.

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If people followed that way of thinking "It's their way of doing it and they do what they want"

This game would be dead by now, I hope you know that, the reason why we are still playing FFXIV as of today is because people complained back then in 1.0, and that's what created what we play today.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Meshes may or may not work well with a specific way of rigging the bones for animations. So changes around the mouth would be something I'd expect.

Though that does not explain changes to the nose on Miqo Face 4, since that does not move during animation. Or the shiny lips that now always look like chars wear gloss.
These were most definitely aesthetic design choices.

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They're clearly still trying to make old facial animations work on these current models, so the meshes not working well wouldn't make sense. They're just a different contour, and every model is supposed to accommodate for 4-6 different shapes for each facial feature option.

It's also definitely possible to change some of these shapes, as they have managed to do so for some (♂ Viera Face 3 Mouth, ♀ Highlander Face 2 Eyes as a couple of examples) between benchmarks and release. Things just don't add up for that theory.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Ultimately, one needs to keep one thing in mind: this is THEIR game, not ours. If they think "it looks better this way, closer to our original design intent", we're SOL and just have to deal with it.

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This is falling for PR, and a sentiment I will never find agreeable regardless. They gave their customers an expectation multiple times. Thousands of customers who pay $12-$14 monthly and $40-$60 every two years. This isn't even including all of the money they definitely make off of their cash shop. We have every right to criticize.

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Originally Posted by SophiaDL

If people followed that way of thinking "It's their way of doing it and they do what they want"

This game would be dead by now

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Nonsensical hyperbole.

Giving feedback is necessary and encouraged by the DEVs.
Expecting them to act on every feedback to your personal liking, on the other hand, is misguided and will only result in personal disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

This is falling for PR, and a sentiment I will never find agreeable regardless. They gave their customers an expectation multiple times. Thousands of customers who pay $12-$14 monthly and $40-$60 every two years. This isn't even including all of the money they definitely make off of their cash shop. We have every right to criticize.

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You do realize that (if we leave the shoddy DLSS implementation out of it, which is what I see more complaints about than "muh character's nose") only an absolutely tiny segment of G-Posing hardcores really has problems with this GFX update, right?

You need to realize that e.g.: me disliking the new shiny lips, is a super tiny nitpick, compare to the scope of the GFX update / whole game.
The probability of SE humoring me and changing that (for all players nonetheless) is practically -0-.

Put our complaints into perspective and adjust your expectations, is all I am saying.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

You do realize that (if we leave the shoddy DLSS implementation out of it, which is what I see more complaints about than "muh character's nose) only an absolutely tiny segment of G-Posing hardcores really has problems with this GFX update, right?

Put our complaints into perspective and adjust your expectations, is all I am saying.

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I put my complaint into the perspective of them going: "We promise to keep your characters as close as possible" twice in a row. Also in the perspective of Koji going, on stage, "We don't want you to log in and think oh...ew... they look like that?" aloud. But I can tell you don't really care when you're ready to throw in a bad faith argument like 'muh nose' out there.

Anyway, do you have stats for your claim? I'd like to see them. Not once have I mentioned a majority, and even if it isn't a majority, it doesn't matter. They didn't fulfill the expectations of a lot of customers, so much to the point it's causing a lot of people who would rather never post to the forums--myself included--to speak up in hopes of being heard.

And, if you can't get any stats and decide to just throw in the "people who are happy won't complain!" argument for the upteenth time; you do realize many people who do have complaints would still rather not engage with the community in this space (and I can't blame them, it's embarrassing and sucks) and often just silently hope for things to get fixed, right? It's a normal human reaction. So maybe try adjusting your perspective a little bit, too.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

I put my complaint into the perspective of them going: "We promise to keep your characters as close as possible" twice in a row. Also in the perspective of Koji going, on stage, "We don't want you to log in and think oh...ew... they look like that?" aloud.

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You do realize that no matter how little they change, some people WILL be obsessed enough to have that happen. It's inevitable.
I've been part of a "botched" character revamp in World of Warcraft, where I really did not recognize my Draenei afterwards. SE did INFINITELY better.

Is it perfect? No it is not. Nothing ever is. But on my char and on most of the screenshots I see here, they got damn close to it.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

They didn't fulfill the expectations of a lot of customers, so much to the point it's causing a lot of people who would rather never post to the forums--myself included--to speak up in hopes of being heard.

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So you did. (general you) For weeks now. It's safe to assume they heard what they wanted to hear. Whether they will implement any further changes at this point is anyone's guess. I somewhat doubt it because changing characters AGAIN could upset people that already used Fantasia and settled in. So I totally understand SE for being weary on this one.

In the end, the only statistic that matters is really the subscriber count. Unless there is a MASSIVE uproar (hasn't happened) / mass exodus (unlikely to happen, at least not due to character changes), SE will consider the changes a success and move on from the topic. THAT is the business reality of things.

I'd say, judging from the rather poor reception of the MSQ, SE has much bigger fish to fry right now in terms of subscriber count, than the slightly changed curvature of a Miqo'te nose or slightly more shiny lips.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

You do realize that no matter how little they change, some people WILL be obsessed enough to have that happen. It's inevitable.
I've been part of a "botched" character revamp in World of Warcraft, where I really did not recognize my Draenei afterwards. SE did INFINITELY better.

Is it perfect? No it is not. Nothing ever is. But on my char and on most of the screenshots I see here, they got damn close to it.

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This is irrelevant...? Comparing FFXIV character models with WoW's is comparing apples to oranges. The only thing similar is that they're MMOs. Their character creators are different beasts, and I don't recall WoW having the same promise/PR that FFXIV's team did.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

So you did. For weeks now. It's safe to assume they heard what they wanted to hear. Whether they will implement any further changes at this point is anyone's guess. I somewhat doubt it because changing characters AGAIN could upset people that already used Fantasia and settled in. So I totally understand SE for being weary on this one.

In the end, the only statistic that matters is really the subscriber count. Unless there is a MASSIVE uproar (hasn't happened) / mass exodus (unlikely to happen, at least not due to character changes), SE will consider the changes a success and move on from the topic. THAT is the business reality of things.

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Then they do something to circumvent that again like they attempted to here. Short side quests are evidently easy to implement. I also don't see how people who are neutral or happy with the supposed "unimportant and minor character changes" will notice or care for more "unimportant and minor character changes," taking how you view them into consideration.

And to be plain, I think the people who have been playing with a certain character look for literal years actually do take more importance over those who have had a certain look for a few weeks or months.

Clearly you want everyone to just shut up though. I'm sure people would be more comforted in being heard if those who took these nebulous "neutral stances" weren't so combative against those asking for changes.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I'd say, judging from the rather poor reception of the MSQ, SE has much bigger fish to fry right now in terms of subscriber count, than the slightly changed curvature of a Miqo'te nose or slightly more shiny lips.

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...Okay, yeah, I'm done here; you're definitely just arguing in bad faith. You do realize that the graphic artists aren't the people who work on things like MSQ or even battle content, right, lol? Also, even the GFX artists that work on character models vs the more technical aspects of the graphical update aren't generally the same people. What is this argument even supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

This is irrelevant...? Comparing FFXIV character models with WoW's is comparing apples to oranges. The only thing similar is that they're MMOs. Their character creators are different beasts, and I don't recall WoW having the same promise/PR that FFXIV's team did.

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They did. They marketed it as "Your character but in HD". They stated "we do not want you to log in and no longer recognize your character, that'd be horrible!", showed very promising previews that looked close to the originals and then turned a 180 and DRASTICALLY changed Draenei on release.

So much so, that they had to revise some of the changes but we never got even close to what they displayed during the development phase in terms of "true to the original".

Sounds familiar? Yah, that's why it is relevant to put into perspective how SE did A LOT better, even if not perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

And to be plain, I think the people who have been playing with a certain character look for literal years actually do take more importance over those who have had a certain look for a few weeks or months.

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Your opinion, not necessarily SE's. Don't overestimate your importance.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

I'm sure people would be more comforted in being heard if those who took these nebulous "neutral stances" weren't so combative against those asking for changes.

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More changes: more possibilities for SE to screw up.
I happen to like my "new cat", so is it surprising that I do not want more changes to happen in an attempt to please a few diehards?
You're not the only one in this boat, mate.

Deal with it.

I have nothing against SE implementing more OPTIONS but I don't necessarily want CHANGES.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

What is this argument even supposed to be.

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Simple: context for the gravity of feedback. Compare MSQ feedback/reception and character changes and you'll clearly see the difference in magnitude.
I already stated that DEV teams are separate a few pages back, so no need pretending to be smart and trying to "educate me" on SE's inner workings.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

That last paragraph was not directed at you. :'D

Unless you think of yourself as "people".

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Yeah it actually just seemed like none of it was directed at me, since none of what you said even responded to what I said. Why did you even bother quoting me if you didn’t even read my post?? Is it because my posts are typically articulate and reasonable and you were just in a hurry to dismiss me? I don’t know if it’s your intention, but you come off as someone who just wants to argue and not think things through or consider others words. I don’t appreciate being responded to in that manner.

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

Yeah it actually just seemed like none of it was directed at me

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The first part was very much directed at you.

You claimed that the old lighting was "more dramatic", that the "artistry did not get preserved" with the new lighting and presented that as fact and reason for complaints.

Quote for posterity, highlighting the relevant parts:

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

So a few things I disagree on. First, while the before and afters you posted show a large increase in visual clarity, they also show a marked decrease in how dramatic the lighting is. Lighting is one of the best ways to set the mood of a scene from a direction standpoint. A lot of cutscenes have suffered from new flatter lighting with less contrast. The scene at the end of ARR when Raubahn snaps and we get such intense shadows and red lighting is a good example. In the new lighting that scene is significantly less dramatic and impactful now. I think it’s important to preserve the original artistry of this game with this graphics update. Hopefully that’s something that will be worked on going forward.

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Are you the artist here? Are you a member of CBU-III? Do you have ANY shred of hard data on what constitutes their artistic vision? Do you know, as a FACT, that the new lighting is further from what they originally intended or whether it is actually closer?

YOU DON'T.

None of us do. So claiming otherwise is extremely arrogant.

You may prefer the old "crappy" lighting, and that sentiment is completely valid.
But do not throw around implications like "the new system does not preserve artistic intent, so we need to complain that they fix it".

Much of the old lighting was simply a result engine limitations. If you've ever been creative and tried to mod a videogame, you would know that oftentimes you can't actually implement what you have in your head. Instead, you have to compromise with what the engine allows you to achieve.

Now imagine your favorite game overhauling it's GFX and giving you a shiny box of new toys. What would you do as a creator? Remake your mod and stray further from your original design intent or use the new tech to your advantage to get closer? What sounds more logical here, hmm?

Of course mistakes, like the erroneous baked reflections resulting in yellow housing floors, happen. XIV is a gigantic project. So Feedback is always okay and valuable. Yosida-sama saw it, and commented on it, so we know a fix is coming. *yay*

But When the designers do not react to it (and there will be cases like this since they have to draw a line somewhere), that means it IS looking / working as intended. Whether we personally like it or not, is beside the point.

That is why I happened to disagree with your assessment, so I quoted you.
Simple and easy. Nothing personal about it, I am not out to "get you" or anything.
At the end of the day, we're just 2 gamers who are passionate about XIV and share opinions.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

[snipped to fit in message max length]

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Except you said none of that originally.

I don’t care to argue with someone like you much further because I disagree with how you’re retconning and framing these new followup arguments entirely as well. You don’t get to just throw quotation marks around things and imply they’re my words.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

You claimed that the old lighting was "more dramatic", that the "artistry did not get preserved" with the new lighting and presented that as fact and reason for complaints.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

You may prefer the old "crappy" lighting, and that sentiment is completely valid.
But do not throw around stuff like "new system does not preserve artistic intent".

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You direct quoted me elsewhere in the post and I’m direct quoting you here so I know you can do it. I said some of those words yes, but I’ll thank you to not make up words, re-arrange words and remove or add your own context to frame what I said differently. I didn’t say “crappy”. I did not make a blanket statement saying a “new system” doesn’t preserve any artistic intent nor did I say that none of the artistic intent was preserved. I was speaking very specifically about the shift from higher contrast lighting to flatter lighting and how that changes the impact and impression of certain cutscenes. And then most of the rest of my post was about physical mesh changes on my character. Just let my words be in their original context thanks.

Now back to your original reply to me:

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I still think the GFX look way better now.

Is the update perfect? Of course not.
Do I want to go back to the old system: hell no.

Was the update worth it: In my opinion: yes.

People here blare about "BUT CRAPPY MSQ!!" not realizing that these are done by entirely separate teams.
Sticking to the old visuals would NOT have made the story more engaging. You'd have gotten Wuk Lamat just the same.

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Leaving out the part after “people here” since you decided that part of the reply abruptly is unrelated to quoting me, what did any of that happen to do with me? I didn’t disparage the new “GFX” as a whole, nor did I say anything about going back to “the old system”, whatever that means. You seem to be speaking to people based on some amalgamation of all the various opinions you’ve read on the forums and acting like it’s what everyone is saying. None of what you just said in this new post was in your original. I mean you can go back and actually read what I said and rant at me with semantics arguments all you want now. It doesn’t retcon your original reply or invalidate me calling you out for replying dismissively without reading.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

They did. They marketed it as "Your character but in HD".

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If it's not written on the sales page, then it's not marketting. It's just words. It's best to not take what devs say as gospel.

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

It doesn’t retcon your original reply or invalidate me calling you out for replying dismissively without reading.

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I did read, you were arguing about the lighting with the poster before you.

You can wince and whine all you want, your words are there for everyone to see, including the context.
I stand by my original point, in that I consider the new lighting to be superior and do not want to have the old system back even if it is in your opinion "more dramatic".

End of story.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

If it's not written on the sales page, then it's not marketting. It's just words. It's best to not take what devs say as gospel.

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Even if it is in the marketing blob, that's still no guarantee, aye. Plenty of precedents out there.

I seriously don't understand the rise of the corporate shills and the absolute worship of Yoship and devs. Especially in a situation like this where you have paying customers , who not only have been paying a monthly subscription for years but also pre-ordering 40$ expansions every few years , provide their feedback and disappointment over the questionable and shoddy execution of features that were consistently promoted , by said company and devs , and failed to deliver. I don't understand whats so difficult to grasp that maybe if we had smooth HD graphics promoted and characters preserved we expect to not login and play through cutscenes of still present pixelated armour (on entirely NEW npcs and quests) , broken indoor lighting and change or outright erasure of features of the character that you've had in a cutscene for literal years. Or in some people's case - suddenly find yourself incapable to even keep playing because the update causes unbearable eye strain and no option toggle is available to fix it. Its just disappointing.

These developers aren't infallible. And this is a product from a million dollar company - they overpromised and underdelivered. Rushed through a job that required attention and continue to split their creative team amongst other projects instead of realizing that continuing to develop such a huge MMORPG requires all the resources at hand , especially if they're going to be doing some gargantuan task like a graphic overhaul.
I don't know what's happening behind closed doors and truthfully the details aren't entirely my business. But its incredibly apparent that the level of quality assurance is absolutely in the bucket in comparison to what they've provided before with this service. Stop excusing things like that and let people leave feedback about it otherwise they'll just continue getting away with feeding you lies and serving you slop.

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Originally Posted by GreenLeafy

I seriously don't understand the rise of the corporate shills and the absolute worship of Yoship and devs.

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It's corporate/brand tribalism.

The graphic update made the game look a million times better than what it was. Im very happy with how everything looks, im just a bit dissapointed not everything is done yet and some stuff still looks wierd and unfinished.
The shading is still wierd in a lot of places, but i heard they are changing indoor lighting in patch 7.05. I for sure hope they fix more of the lighting issues at the same time because its not only indoor lighting that needs to be fixed.

Example:
https://i.ibb.co/XsChw0M/lighting.png

I feel like a broken record posting this in so many threads, but I'll keep doing it.
How are these lips a "graphical upgrade?" I haven't even logged in on my au ra because it makes me so sad to see her face. It's not her anymore.
I don't know how someone could look at these lips and say it preserves the look and feel of the character. They are a totally different shape (and color for that matter, but that's not my main complaint)
https://i.imgur.com/Kuh5Cu5.png

Au Ra face 3 in Blender, 6.55 on left 7.0 on right.
https://i.imgur.com/l500e5b.png
Eye shape, nose shape and (mostly clearly) lip shape are totally different.
Pupil size is doubled, something that didn't happen to any other race or gender except female au ra. The bigger pupils contributed to a tired, flat, dead look to the eyes, whereas the smaller pupil looked more bright and alert. Other female au ra players have been raising concerns over this since the first benchmark in April. Face 2 and 4 also got hit hard with the lip flattening bat and dead eyes. This is the opposite of what they told us in the PLLs that they would do. Yeah, I'm mad about it. I would have loved upgraded textures and lighting, but instead I got an entirely new head that makes my character look like a stranger to me.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I did read, you were arguing about the lighting with the poster before you.

You can wince and whine all you want, your words are there for everyone to see, including the context.
I stand by my original point, in that I consider the new lighting to be superior and do not want to have the old system back even if it is in your opinion "more dramatic".

End of story.

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What on earth is your deal? You never had an original point. You quoted me explaining that I feel some scenes lost their visual impact because of the flatter lighting and less contrast, and talking about how the new models aren’t necessarily higher detail mesh wise. Thats it. And you didn’t respond to anything I actually said you just went “I still think the GFX look way better now.” while also more than once suggesting that I want to go back to some “old system”. I don’t even know what you’re talking about. What “old system”? I’ve not once said anything about reverting anything. I’m an artist with over a decade of industry experience giving feedback. They made blanket changes to the games lighting that affected all cutscenes indiscriminately. I’m talking about encouraging that they do a pass looking at different cutscenes and lighting conditions to make manual tweaks, making sure everything looks its best. I’m also showing an objective direct comparison between the old character model and new. That’s it. That’s like, not a controversial take. You’ve been arguing against a stance I never took and I have no idea why. The only thing I can think is that you glanced at my post, made assumptions without reading, and lumped me into whatever group you’re normally arguing with and now you’re just doubling down forever.

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Originally Posted by GreenLeafy

to not login and play through cutscenes of still present pixelated armour (on entirely NEW npcs and quests)

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Pretty sure the pixellated armor is a design choice rather than a necessity of the engine. As is SE's obsession with staying around ~4GB of VRAM in 2024.

Even in the old GFX system, the game was perfectly capable of rendering highly detailed equipment with 4K textures w/o weird pixels (as evident in screenshots from people who use mods).

I totally agree that this practice sucks and that e.g.: Koanas armor was an eyesore. Though I don't expect that to change anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Rikizza

The shading is still wierd in a lot of places.

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Yep, cursed lighting existed in the old GFX and it still exists in the new GFX.
Keep in mind though: even in real life cursed lighting conditions exist. Providing good lighting for e.g.: movies is a difficult art. :D

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

I don't know how someone could look at these lips and say it preserves the look and feel of the character. They are a totally different shape

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Can't say that I see much difference in terms of SHAPE but everyone wearing gloss is one of my own pet peeves with the update, because I made it a point that my Kitten never wears make-up. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

I’m also showing an objective direct comparison between the old character model and new. That’s it. That’s like, not a controversial take.

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For the last time: I was not talking about the model part of your post. You know that I agree with you on that front from another thread already.
Yes, I should have been more precise and written "lighting" instead of "GFX".

That is definitely on me. Apart from that, my point stands unchanged: I consider the new lighting and shadows superior in most cases.

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

I feel like a broken record posting this in so many threads, but I'll keep doing it.
How are these lips a "graphical upgrade?" I haven't even logged in on my au ra because it makes me so sad to see her face. It's not her anymore.(...)

Au Ra face 3 in Blender, 6.55 on left 7.0 on right.
https://i.imgur.com/l500e5b.png
Eye shape, nose shape and (mostly clearly) lip shape are totally different.
Pupil size is doubled, something that didn't happen to any other race or gender except female au ra. The bigger pupils contributed to a tired, flat, dead look to the eyes, whereas the smaller pupil looked more bright and alert. (...) Yeah, I'm mad about it. I would have loved upgraded textures and lighting, but instead I got an entirely new head that makes my character look like a stranger to me.

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Quoting this to mention that I have also compared the actual mesh of Au Ra Face 1 in Blender.
Face 1 is probably not as egregious as the other faces, but I can't deny how different my character feels. It's not her anymore.
Honestly wasn't sure if I could post this but I suppose it does help the case...

https://i.imgur.com/ZXt0FCC.gif

You can literally see how different the resting pose of the face is just by an untextured mesh.

Aside from the pupil size change, the eyes are actually bigger and rounder (you can see it in your Face 3 too). There's also the thicker and fuller lips, forehead position is different, round nose instead of sharp, the horns look rounder and jagged instead of angular (why?), etc... I've said a lot about this in prior posts so I'll just let you notice anything else.

I also noticed the differences on your examples, the face generally looks more like an overly beautified doll and I agree with everything you've written, especially regarding how much we've spoken about Female Au Ra since the benchmark. Likewise, I'm at risk of sounding like a broken record (especially about the lips). It's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

Also in the perspective of Koji going, on stage, "We don't want you to log in and think oh...ew... they look like that?" aloud.

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And I did exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

For the last time: I was not talking about the model part of your post. You know that I agree with you on that front from another thread already.
Yes, I should have been more precise and written "lighting" instead of "GFX".

That is definitely on me. Apart from that, my point stands unchanged: I consider the new lighting and shadows superior in most cases.

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For the last time? What other times? What even…? I was just summarizing my original post. And what point are you making to me? I’ve been trying to figure out your point or why you’ve been arguing with me this whole time. Our stances on the graphics update are not necessarily mutually exclusive! You like the new lighting? Cool! And I’m glad you see eye to eye with me on the models. You said the new gfx wasn’t perfect. I agree! I was simply saying that I hoped the dev team would spend time doing QA on this new update. I felt some lighting situations were not up to standard and some cutscenes that don’t look as impactful could use some manual adjustment. That like it. I’ve been trying so hard to get that through to you but you keep talking to me like I’m making these broad statements that you disagree with. To the person behind me saying revert the lighting and that I liked it all better before? Cause that aint me.

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Originally Posted by lunartears

Quoting this to mention that I have also compared the actual mesh of Au Ra Face 1 in Blender.

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That’s super interesting to see and thank you for putting in that work. As someone with modelling experience, it’s pretty illuminating and also validating that my limited observations just based on CC comparisons were correct. I would love to see the same kind of comparison for face 4 moon miqo.

You would all legitimately cry over milk if it was spilled. The graphical update is fine and I'm sure they will polish it more as they go. Jeeze this community never used to cry and complain about every little thing when I started playing back in 2014. Now you can't take 5 steps in game without finding something to cry about because you're all severely entitled. Grow up.

Graphic update is fine and makes the game 100 times better and will be improved over time. You guys sure crying about a lot of things

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Originally Posted by lunartears

I won't make any comments on it since it's not a face I play, but hope this helps:

https://i.imgur.com/dhFsdgU.gif

Sorry about the part outlines, I couldn't figure out a way to hide them so I just hid the optional ones (like makeup and racial options) for better visibility.

Alternatively, here's a photo with textures (eye colour and lips dont match but it should be fine)

(Old on left, new on right)

https://i.imgur.com/xoBhlYU.png

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Oh is that Sunseeker? Still cool to see. Maybe I’ll try and see if I can look at Moon myself somehow. That way I can enable the edge outlines and look around. “Shade smooth” makes it a bit difficult to see the actual geometry which I’m real curious about.

Seems to me players that uses 3rd app are crying about the gfx updates. As for me, the gfx update is huge for me.

Seriously i have no clue what is this complain about ....

Toaster PCs adjust.

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Originally Posted by EdwinChucklenuts

Toaster PCs adjust.

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People are asking for a complete graphical update and your response is "you guys have toaster pcs"

???????????????

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

Seems to me players that uses 3rd app are crying about the gfx updates. As for me, the gfx update is huge for me.

Seriously i have no clue what is this complain about ....

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You two literally make absolutely 0 sense, one goes "you guys have bad pcs" and the other goes "if you dont like the update that means you use mods"

like please make it make sense lmao

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Originally Posted by SophiaDL

People are asking for a complete graphical update and your response is "you guys have toaster pcs"

???????????????



You two literally make absolutely 0 sense, one goes "you guys have bad pcs" and the other goes "if you dont like the update that means you use mods"

like please make it make sense lmao

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I think it’s safe to ignore these people. A lot of folks just taunting and insulting without ever offering anything constructive or insightful. They don’t even think their own words though enough to bother to have them make sense.

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Originally Posted by lunartears

https://i.imgur.com/ZXt0FCC.gif

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These are interesting comparisons – in particular you can see how much they've actually added that strong under-eyelid shape that is creating the eye bags that are a common complaint.

I'd be really interested to see them for the other faces as well.

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

I think it’s safe to ignore these people. A lot of folks just taunting and insulting without ever offering anything constructive or insightful. They don’t even think their own words though enough to bother to have them make sense.

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I'm having a good chuckle out of reading their responses about how we are complaining and crying when the actuality is that all of us are being fairly constructive and it's the "Idk the graphix look fine to me" crowd that is very loudly whining about how FINE the update is, and how fine THEIR characters are, and how fine our characters are to THEM. Typical whataboutmeism and contrarian behavior.

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Originally Posted by lunartears

Oops, I read over the part where you mentioned Moonseeker. I apologise. I'll also admit that I forgot Miqo'te have different faces based on the clan

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No worries, and cheers!

1. My character looks worse
2. My house looks worse
3. My portraits look worse
4. The environment looks the same, except it has more grass?
5. Something in new areas makes my fans go so hard my PC might take off even though the graphics don't look any different?

This is not an upgrade and it seems I was right to ask for it to be rolled back after the first benchmark. They should have waited until 8.0 to release it in a finished state.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

These are interesting comparisons – in particular you can see how much they've actually added that strong under-eyelid shape that is creating the eye bags that are a common complaint.

I'd be really interested to see them for the other faces as well.

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The under-eyelid thing(I don't even know what word to use for it) is one of the weirdest mesh changes. I can't imagine a professional deliberately doing this, looking at it, and not immediately undoing it.

https://i.imgur.com/VBB6dpk.png

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Originally Posted by Reinha

1. My character looks worse
2. My house looks worse
3. My portraits look worse
4. The environment looks the same, except it has more grass?
5. Something in new areas makes my fans go so hard my PC might take off even though the graphics don't look any different?

This is not an upgrade and it seems I was right to ask for it to be rolled back after the first benchmark. They should have waited until 8.0 to release it in a finished state.

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Agreed with most, with the exception of point 4.

The environments for the most part do not look the same, they actually look worse.

Check out the skies of Goblet, or the Sea of 'Clouds'.

Then feast your eyes on the hilariously bad flat trees you can see while ocean fishing, not to mention the giant overlapping grey squares of 'fog'.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

These are interesting comparisons – in particular you can see how much they've actually added that strong under-eyelid shape that is creating the eye bags that are a common complaint.

I'd be really interested to see them for the other faces as well.

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Male Highlander Face#2 reporting here.
The eyes outside of benchmark/character creator somehow becomes my main nagging point. And the better lighting in character creator absolutely does not reflect what is happening in-game most of the time.
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...9734386099.png
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...8fd00bd982.png
(Forgive the blurry image. I have no better resolution but this should already illustrate how difference on under eyelids cause different impression)