7.0 DNC is awful compared to EW

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Yeah you're right. This was original made for memes, but it can still serve as a good example of the issue that persisted since EW.

The issue became more egregious because SE thinks it's cool to gate key abilities behind "XYZ ready" buff

now we have this

https://i.imgur.com/aWUoF6l.png

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Yup Tillana was always its own buff that also refreshed standard and now Tillana and FM are separate buffs that used to do the same thing

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Originally Posted by Connor

Not disagreeing in any way, but I do think at least four of those buffs don’t actually need to be there lol. I don’t think it’s going to affect anyone’s burst if you don’t have Improvisation, Improv Shield, Regen, and Shield Samba applied. Though obviously that’s an issue in and of itself if you’re essentially locked out of using them whenever burst is approaching because you don’t want to overflow on the 120s buffs everyone’s vomiting out lol.

But yeah it’s silly to me that they saw how tight Dancer/Bard openers can get because you’re stuffing practically every skill you’ve ever learned into that 20-sec window every 120s, and were like ‘let’s stuff more crap in there!’. I mean, for Bard two of the three new (sort of lol) skills you get are literally exclusive to burst (Radiant Encore and Resonant Arrow)

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At least with BRD they only got 2 new GCD's. BRD had always had an OGCD rotation (Songs, Barrage, sidewinder, EA) they still have periods in burst where they are hitting burst shot and things can be shifted. It doesn't matter when you hit Iron Jaws in burst or when you hit radiant encore as long as it's there. But DNC now has 5/8 set GCD's and the other 3 need to be sabers anyway to dump the overflowing gauge. There 0 flexibility or reaction anymkre since DNC isn't even generating new feathers in burst since procs are now drifted out because they're a dps lose

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Yeah you're right. This was original made for memes, but it can still serve as a good example of the issue that persisted since EW.

The issue became more egregious because SE thinks it's cool to gate key abilities behind "XYZ ready" buff

now we have this

https://i.imgur.com/aWUoF6l.png

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Absolutely; the ability gating feels like they’ve been very lazy with implementation as well. As in, they couldn’t be bothered, ran out of ideas, etc, for how to fit the new skills into job rotations, so they just slapped them all behind a 120s cool-down ability so they don’t have to actually consider how best to make the ability fit into the skill set

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

At least with BRD they only got 2 new GCD's.

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Yeah, for Bard while it gets tight the fact Resonant and Encore are GCDs does make it much easier to fit them in than it is for Dancer since you’ve got at least some freedom to move them around. Dancer is next on my list to level after White Mage, so I’ll get to experience the DNC 120-sec buff rotation hell myself soon enough lol.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Absolutely; the ability gating feels like they’ve been very lazy with implementation as well. As in, they couldn’t be bothered, ran out of ideas, etc, for how to fit the new skills into job rotations, so they just slapped them all behind a 120s cool-down ability so they don’t have to actually consider how best to make the ability fit into the skill set


Yeah, for Bard while it gets tight the fact Resonant and Encore are GCDs does make it much easier to fit them in than it is for Dancer since you’ve got at least some freedom to move them around. Dancer is next on my list to level after White Mage, so I’ll get to experience the DNC 120-sec buff rotation hell myself soon enough lol.

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Remember that you need to clip your GCD for tech every 2 min because it comes of CD 0.5 seconds late because the new rotation is 119.5 seconds...it sucks

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

So, should the Icy Veins updates to Dancer's opener and such not be taken as fact? I'm just a bit confused as they way they outline things makes sense for my head but this thread is saying that Dancer is just completely broken.

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Also want to mention the Icy veins opener is from the old and far superior media tour dancer build. It hasn't been updated yet

I’m glad to find those with similar mind about DNC rotation in DT.

The last time I look up any guides at all about DNC was from roughly 3 years ago so I’m just dipping my toe into DT rotation with that foundation as a lv92 DNC at the time of writing this. I think with the addition of Last Dance & forced Saber Dance/DotD from Tilana makes it impossible for us to fit in any Fountainfalls & Reverse Cascades in burst windows. I feel irked that we get so many high powered, more prioritized GCDs that it pushes out any potential for more than 4 fan dances usage within their burst when that hectic phase was what I loved from ShB/EW DNC. If Last Dance & Saber Dance has a chance to proc fans III or IV I’d be happier, but I guess they’re trying to minimize variance as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I’m glad to find those with similar mind about DNC rotation in DT.

The last time I look up any guides at all about DNC was from roughly 3 years ago so I’m just dipping my toe into DT rotation with that foundation as a lv92 DNC at the time of writing this. I think with the addition of Last Dance & forced Saber Dance/DotD from Tilana makes it impossible for us to fit in any Fountainfalls & Reverse Cascades in burst windows. I feel irked that we get so many high powered, more prioritized GCDs that it pushes out any potential for more than 4 fan dances usage within their burst when that hectic phase was what I loved from ShB/EW DNC. If Last Dance & Saber Dance has a chance to proc fans III or IV I’d be happier, but I guess they’re trying to minimize variance as much as possible.

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This! Like all of this!

And they didn't fix Tilana so we still have an overcap issue
They didn't fix needing to go into burst combo neutral as well as proc neutral which ruins the way the job as played for the last 4 years because we can't pool resources and dump them in a satisfying way in burst or even generate new feathers in burst. Overall the gameplay of this job is a mess and prange needs love.

Please SE I miss EW DNC

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Originally Posted by Sacae

New Dancer is fantastic, no clue what you're on about. The job is actually a bit busy between bursts now, and you don't have to hoard a Saber Dance anymore for the burst, because Last Dance has equal potency and you can get 1-2 off each burst, and Finishing Move outdamages it, and you'll get a guaranteed proc with Tillana. So you can use your Saber Dances between bursts. The job flows fantastically.

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I too love DNC atm- the animations are cute and the playstyle feels less braindead with better flow. I can surely say I'm actually enjoying the class this go around

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Originally Posted by HeyMcFly

I too love DNC atm- the animations are cute and the playstyle feels less braindead with better flow. I can surely say I'm actually enjoying the class this go around

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Same, it's fun.

Am I the only Dancer who didn't appreciate having to fish for Fan Dances during my burst? I like that for filler, but I want my burst to be consistent. Now it is.

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Originally Posted by Sacae

Same, it's fun.

Am I the only Dancer who didn't appreciate having to fish for Fan Dances during my burst? I like that for filler, but I want my burst to be consistent. Now it is.

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I don’t really see the benefit of a proc job who builds towards a burst that basically ignores procs

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t really see the benefit of a proc job who builds towards a burst that basically ignores procs

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You can save your fans for burst just like before, the big difference is you can get an extra Saber dance off during downtime, since you're guaranteed to get one from Tillana. The procs still matter, you just don't have to use your weaker combo skills to fish for them in burst now.

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Originally Posted by Sacae

You can save your fans for burst just like before, the big difference is you can get an extra Saber dance off during downtime, since you're guaranteed to get one from Tillana. The procs still matter, you just don't have to use your weaker combo skills to fish for them in burst now.

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The procs don't matter in burst at all since you can't use them. You just ignore flourish procs in burst and not using them means you aren't gaining any new feathers in burst either

Consistent burst was also not what DNC was about, there's mch for that. Also going into burst without any combo or procs because they'll expire is kinda hard and very annoying

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

The procs don't matter in burst at all since you can't use them. You just ignore flourish procs in burst and not using them means you aren't gaining any new feathers in burst either

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The Flourish procs still matter in burst because sometimes you get bad luck with Espirit. It's less likely to happen now, but it can still happen. In EW, it felt awful when you only got 2 Saber Dances during your burst. That has been resolved, and the Flourish procs are a redundency in case you just don't get Espirit.

The job has evolved, stop trying to treat it like it was in EW.

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Consistent burst was also not what DNC was about, there's mch for that. Also going into burst without any combo or procs because they'll expire is kinda hard and very annoying

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An inconsistent burst was the biggest problem with EW Dancer, because sometimes you just couldn't contribute good damage because Espirit was being difficult. The second biggest problem was how boring the time between bursts was. Both of these have been fixed.

I'd agree that Tillana should just give "Dance of the Dawn Ready" or something like that, but acting like the job is fundamentally different is a huge overreaction, imo. It's just been, for the most part, fixed.

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Originally Posted by Sacae

An inconsistent burst was the biggest problem with EW Dancer, because sometimes you just couldn't contribute good damage because Espirit was being difficult. The second biggest problem was how boring the time between bursts was. Both of these have been fixed.

I'd agree that Tillana should just give "Dance of the Dawn Ready" or something like that, but acting like the job is fundamentally different is a huge overreaction, imo. It's just been, for the most part, fixed.

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That’s kinda the core of the problem

What’s the point of a proc job who has a consistent burst that doesn’t rely on its procs

If my job centres on procs then I assume my performance will vary each run by my proc luck

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Originally Posted by Sacae

Same, it's fun.

Am I the only Dancer who didn't appreciate having to fish for Fan Dances during my burst? I like that for filler, but I want my burst to be consistent. Now it is.

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Apples and Oranges.

There were many other jobs whose burst phase being mostly consistent. I liked the inconsistency of DNC's burst in EW and prior. If I wanted something else more consistent, I would pick a different job. But SE hates variances so.... guess that has to die now lol.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Apples and Oranges.

There were many other jobs whose burst phase being mostly consistent. I liked the inconsistency of DNC's burst in EW and prior. If I wanted something else more consistent, I would pick a different job. But SE hates variances so.... guess that has to die now lol.

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This is pretty much how I feel

I wanted to main dancer this expansion, yes i know my damage will be garbage but i didnt expect this kinda garbage. At level 100..its just spam this and that...went back to monk as my dmg class instantly.

Well, well, well, DNC is no longer a brain-dead job at level 100. Now DNC is probably top in terms of PHY Range mastery.

I personally love the changes they did and I feel DNC is a lot more fluid now and makes a lot more sense, especially in burst phases. You no longer only do base combo or saber dance to weave in feathers, you have other stuff as well. It feels much better and more rewarding overall.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Well, well, well, DNC is no longer a brain-dead job at level 100. Now DNC is probably top in terms of PHY Range mastery.

I personally love the changes they did and I feel DNC is a lot more fluid now and makes a lot more sense, especially in burst phases. You no longer only do base combo or saber dance to weave in feathers, you have other stuff as well. It feels much better and more rewarding overall.

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It still is a braindead job, even more so now lol

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Originally Posted by Hanzz96

This is pretty much how I feel

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For the record, I've finally gotten my DNC to 100 not too long ago. It's... not horrible to a degree like any of the healers for sure. But I missed having to anticipate more fan dance I/II popping within their burst windows. Reopeners were rarely the same every 2 minutes in those days, and I think that was fine. I don't need all jobs to be consistent, otherwise why make different jobs?

I'd love to see Fan Dance IV being proc-able outside Flourish. Maybe give the proc chance to Last Dance? or Saber Dance? lol.

Another pet peeve that I have with the job is Finishing Move. Why do they make me 'dance' LESS vs prior yo lv95? I liked that tiny mini-game :/ What do we get in 8.0 I wonder - technical step without dances? What an incorrigible joke lmao.

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Originally Posted by Lyndina

I wanted to main dancer this expansion, yes i know my damage will be garbage but i didnt expect this kinda garbage. At level 100..its just spam this and that...went back to monk as my dmg class instantly.

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EW DNC was surprisingly complex when you really looked into opti and they killed it

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Well, well, well, DNC is no longer a brain-dead job at level 100. Now DNC is probably top in terms of PHY Range mastery.

I personally love the changes they did and I feel DNC is a lot more fluid now and makes a lot more sense, especially in burst phases. You no longer only do base combo or saber dance to weave in feathers, you have other stuff as well. It feels much better and more rewarding overall.

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What do you mean? Its even more brain dead now. Instead of having to pool resources for burst and think about where you're slotting in procs and reacting to new feathers those procs grant you, it's just dump everything and hit set buttons and if you think that's more fluid you're crazy. EW DNC was about reacting and planning around the resources you had going into burst and it was great.

DNC feels beyond clunky now with the fact that you can't even hit a combo before burst or it'll expire because there are so many set GCD's and there's a 0.5 second gap between tech coming off CD and the GCD so you have to hold and it feels awful.

If you think this is phys mastery I don't know what to tell you tbh

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Well, well, well, DNC is no longer a brain-dead job at level 100. Now DNC is probably top in terms of PHY Range mastery.

I personally love the changes they did and I feel DNC is a lot more fluid now and makes a lot more sense, especially in burst phases. You no longer only do base combo or saber dance to weave in feathers, you have other stuff as well. It feels much better and more rewarding overall.

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Same, been enjoying it a lot in Savage tbh. Coming off healing EW, this is a nice change.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

For the record, I've finally gotten my DNC to 100 not too long ago. It's... not horrible to a degree like any of the healers for sure. But I missed having to anticipate more fan dance I/II popping within their burst windows. Reopeners were rarely the same every 2 minutes in those days, and I think that was fine. I don't need all jobs to be consistent, otherwise why make different jobs?

I'd love to see Fan Dance IV being proc-able outside Flourish. Maybe give the proc chance to Last Dance? or Saber Dance? lol.

Another pet peeve that I have with the job is Finishing Move. Why do they make me 'dance' LESS vs prior yo lv95? I liked that tiny mini-game :/ What do we get in 8.0 I wonder - technical step without dances? What an incorrigible joke lmao.

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We had an instant refresh in EW with Tilana but that was only in tech. Tbh idm FM because we need an instant refresh especially in savage and ultimates. DSR and TOP feel awful without Tilana refresh now

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Same, been enjoying it a lot in Savage tbh. Coming off healing EW, this is a nice change.

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I just don't understand. If you guys wanted a set burst mch was right there. Reacting to RNG is what made DNC unique and now there is no RNG in burst and ss must be used exactly on cooldown there's no freedom anymore

It’s just such a bummer that they didn’t just quick patch Tilana and scrub the esprit or something.

All we got was a Fan Dance IV buff? Which only factors in every minute. When since launch people have been giving feedback on how bad Tilana overcapping feels.

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

It’s just such a bummer that they didn’t just quick patch Tilana and scrub the esprit or something.

All we got was a Fan Dance IV buff? Which only factors in every minute. When since launch people have been giving feedback on how bad Tilana overcapping us feels.

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Yeah SE just don't listen. Combos also need to be 5 seconds longer tbh as well as the Tillana fix

My DNC is only 97 currently and I was never big on DNC (more of a BRD and MCH enjoyer) and I'm indeed feeling the changes. I never played DNC much outside of rouls as to me it felt absolutely amazing during the 2 min as you got the rush of managing all your esprit and feathers but outside of that it wasn't too exiting. With the DT changes I have been liking it more out of burst now but in exchange the 2 minute doesn't feel as good which is a shame, hitting the new buttons doesn't give the same dopamine hit as seeing that esprit gauge go constantly up and down as you used all your procs. I wouldn't mind if finishing move became an oGCD instead for one more gcd to use your procs.

That say, I'm curious, what was the use cases of tillana before? As mentioned, I'm more of a casual dancer and when doing phys ranged in TOP and DSR I took MCH, so I'm not familiar. The one I can think of is rewind and TOP P6 where you just left a cs into a 2 minute bursts. My guess is that DNC used to imediatedly go into tech step and used tillana to get back the buff without delaying burst by 2 gcds?

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Originally Posted by luca20

My DNC is only 97 currently and I was never big on DNC (more of a BRD and MCH enjoyer) and I'm indeed feeling the changes. I never played DNC much outside of rouls as to me it felt absolutely amazing during the 2 min as you got the rush of managing all your esprit and feathers but outside of that it wasn't too exiting. With the DT changes I have been liking it more out of burst now but in exchange the 2 minute doesn't feel as good which is a shame, hitting the new buttons doesn't give the same dopamine hit as seeing that esprit gauge go constantly up and down as you used all your procs. I wouldn't mind if finishing move became an oGCD instead for one more gcd to use your procs.

That say, I'm curious, what was the use cases of tillana before? As mentioned, I'm more of a casual dancer and when doing phys ranged in TOP and DSR I took MCH, so I'm not familiar. The one I can think of is rewind and TOP P6 where you just left a cs into a 2 minute bursts. My guess is that DNC used to imediatedly go into tech step and used tillana to get back the buff without delaying burst by 2 gcds?

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TOP P6 is a big one and pulling in TOP. Most DNC's pulled with technical to be able to get the cleave at the start of P2 and you could first GCD Tillana to get the standard buff up right away.