Why are alisaie and alphinaud in Dawntrail?

They're there because they needed a Healer and a DPS for trust parties.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

Like ok no problem, i get the devs want us to see familiar faces... but why?

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sells better
and probably trust

Oh, were they in Dawntrail? I really didn't notice.

I recall some character in red yapping "lamatyi" occasionally, with no substance added. But that couldn't have been Alisae, she has an actual character and stuff. I don't remember Alphinaud at all. If he were there, he'd have experiences to share with wukkie, things to teach, etc. I've no recollection of that...

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Originally Posted by BakoolJaJa

Oh, were they in Dawntrail? I really didn't notice.

I recall some character in red yapping "lamatyi" occasionally, with no substance added. But that couldn't have been Alisae, she has an actual character and stuff. I don't remember Alphinaud at all. If he were there, he'd have experiences to share with wukkie, things to teach, etc. I've no recollection of that...

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lol now when i think about it i can remember a singel significant line from alphinaud :D

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I believe our travel companions for the future should be Graha'tia, Krile, Estinien and Erenville (Who needs to pick up a bow or something maybe he can be a beast master)

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I support this idea 100%.

The poor writing makes me genuinely crack up in laughter sometimes.

So Alphinaud/Alisae go to the new alexandrians and watch as wuk lamat kills their king and queen, install her child nephew as the new puppet ruler under her "Support and guidance". Apparently rather than chastising llamateaea for her blatant missteps Alphinaud has been taking notes and will use said lessons to "Improve Garlemald".

Lack of development is too generous a term. I would liken the current scion writing to character REGRESSION.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

Like ok no problem, i get the devs want us to see familiar faces... but why?

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Because SE is terrified of making this game without the Scions.
Scions have a lot of popularity, and they do not know how to pull the plug on those characters and let others take the spotlight. It's a 'dug up your own grave' situation, because the entire narrative since SHB keeps elevating the Scions to be the most proficient people in certain matters IN THE WHOLE WORLD.
When it comes to inter-dimensional travel, we shouldn't allow other characters to grow in that spotlight, we should call G'raha and Y'shtola immediately. It is dumb not to.

It could be any character, not just Wuk Lamat there, it would build resentment to not having the Scions around, or letting them do what they know best. Because, again, they are the most competent people in the whole world as the narrative kept dumbing everyone around and making the Scions have all the answers to literally everything. And the Devs don't know how to get away from it in a healthy manner to make their appearances rare and yet exciting.

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Originally Posted by Dante131

lol now when i think about it i can remember a singel significant line from alphinaud :D

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I think the only time either of them was relevant was when Valigarmanda got free, Alphinaud went to help the people over at Worlar's Echo while you fought Vali.

Sweet baby inc

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I said this before at the end of 6.4 I said it was a mistake to take the Twins out of Garlemald.

Many people rejected my message since they love the twins so much.

But to me not only was the last 10 years the story of Hydaelyn and Zodiark. It was Alphinaud and Alisaies (and by extension Louisoix's) story

It makes logical sense that the Twins would see a rebuilding of a shattered despot nation to the end. The whole story was building to them being independent and coming into their own and the guilt they felt for those poor Garlemald children dying instead of accepting our help.

Now all a sudden it's a flaw in Dawntrail that they were put in the background.

Well of course they'd be relegated back there! They are window-dressing. There's nothing left to develop at this point.

Maybe at some later point say after a Crafter/Gather Garlemald rebuilding effort we could reunite with the Twins in a critical moment. Perhaps against a militant Dalmascan faction that doesn't want to stop fighting a war against Garlemald and our tenuous stance of protecting this new Garlemald leads us into conflict with them and even former allies in the Eorzean alliance. Sort of a story that people can change and that an eye for an eye will leave everyone blind type moral.

In my honest opinion, our only real travel companion for future installments should be Graha Tia because we promised to go on journeys together. But they wrote him out of the story only to cart him back in when we were in yet another doomsday scenario.

Estinien I understand always being kept on the sidelines because he's your JRPG ("Second Strongest" Stoic party member) that joins at the last minute when things are at their worse. The guy who holds down the fort if you as the MC should fall.

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It's not just the twins. Urianger and Thancred had their personal arcs resolved as well. Those four should have been in the bench. The hilariously out of touch writers instead bench the characters that SHOULD have been in the frontline.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

Because SE is terrified of making this game without the Scions.
Scions have a lot of popularity, and they do not know how to pull the plug on those characters and let others take the spotlight. It's a 'dug up your own grave' situation, because the entire narrative since SHB keeps elevating the Scions to be the most proficient people in certain matters IN THE WHOLE WORLD.
When it comes to inter-dimensional travel, we shouldn't allow other characters to grow in that spotlight, we should call G'raha and Y'shtola immediately. It is dumb not to.

It could be any character, not just Wuk Lamat there, it would build resentment to not having the Scions around, or letting them do what they know best. Because, again, they are the most competent people in the whole world as the narrative kept dumbing everyone around and making the Scions have all the answers to literally everything. And the Devs don't know how to get away from it in a healthy manner to make their appearances rare and yet exciting.

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The popularity of the Scions is definitely one key factor. I wouldn't say it's a matter of "not knowing how to pull the plug" but recognizing that "pulling the plug" would live up to the reference and kill the game. It's one of those ways that people whose only experience of the FFXIV community is these forums would benefit from widening their view, because we complain a lot about the Scions here, but they're immensely popular among the playerbase at large.

For the other part of "allowing other characters to grow," I see it as a natural matter of human comfort. We've worked alongside the Scions for years now and we all trust each other. If one of them is knowledgeable on a topic, it makes sense to call in the person we both know has the knowledge and who we already trust implicitly compared to some relatively random person we don't really know yet and haven't built that trust with. Think about it in real life - if you need some work done, and already have a long-time friend in that line of work who you know is good at their job, are you going to start randomly Googling other people you don't know to get the job done, or are you going to just call your friend?

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The hilariously out of touch writers instead bench the characters that SHOULD have been in the frontline.

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I wouldn't call them "hilariously out of touch"; I'd say the opposite - they're very much in touch with the reality of the Scions' popularity and the effective need to include them in the stories they write. I see the "out of touch" take as thinking you could just effectively dispose of the Scions and it wouldn't drop the bottom out of the game.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

Like ok no problem, i get the devs want us to see familiar faces... but why?

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Honestly, all the scions shouldn't have been there because Wuk Lamat made them irrelevant. She solved all the problems herself cause she's so special. In fact, Koana was also a fill in for the smarter more tech and book savvy scions. Even Alisaie became more tempered.

I think all the scions personally were tempered like primals temper others....Wuk Lamat is a primal!

To fill out the NPC party. That's literally the only reason I can think of. It came across to me like the writers saw them as an inconvenience. All of the scions, for that matter.

Honestly I'm glad they didn't feel obliged to bring Cid and Nero back and make them bland too.

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Originally Posted by CamuiKushi

To fill out the NPC party. That's literally the only reason I can think of. It came across to me like the writers saw them as an inconvenience. All of the scions, for that matter.

Honestly I'm glad they didn't feel obliged to bring Cid and Nero back and make them bland too.

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Nero: "I normally do not say this...but I, too, believe in Wuk Lamat."

At least they aren't Eren, probably the worst NPC made by Square Enix after Wuk Lame.

20 hours of him doing absolutely and utterly nothing, and plus he can't even fight.

They're the safe option. Even if they're written like empty husks people will still go "squee!" when G'raha is on screen.

Also there's probably some real world element to it where Yoshi-P is friends with the Japanese voice actors and doesn't want to cut them out because it would be rude or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

-snip-

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The process of making new and likable characters to be on the spotlight for the time being, while the Scions show up in time to time is a very hard process to hit given how the fan base is attached to them. But, it is better to try.

Regarding the 2nd paragraph, that's not my point. My point is that even the most capable individual that is not a Scion, will have their accomplishments and skill relying on the Scions, because they have the answers to everything.

In Endwalker we have Sharlayan, the pinnacle of mankind information, build a spaceship. To which, required the Scions to finish the project because somehow, they didn't knew how to do it. Still an impressive feat.

And a feat that is minimized by Y'shtola accomplishing something harder, where she figure out with incredible precise physics, to harness energy, make it travel over three dimensions/alternate realities with vastly precise beacons and know the amount transferred in the matter of seconds was enough energy to pierce through a wall made out of a creature which was the primordial darkness.

Those characters are more capable than anyone else in the world. That will be forever the case, and, well. Powercreep ruin narratives, as it always did. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

And a feat that is minimized by Y'shtola accomplishing something harder, where she figure out with incredible precise physics, to harness energy, make it travel over three dimensions/alternate realities with vastly precise beacons and know the amount transferred in the matter of seconds was enough energy to pierce through a wall made out of a creature which was the primordial darkness.

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She did that with the assistance of Garlond Ironworks, a crew that in another history eventually figured out time/space/dimensional travel. We really should have them on speed-dial too. But again, glad the writers didn't feel obligated to make anyone from Ironworks show up because at least they're "safe" for now.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

The popularity of the Scions is definitely one key factor. I wouldn't say it's a matter of "not knowing how to pull the plug" but recognizing that "pulling the plug" would live up to the reference and kill the game. It's one of those ways that people whose only experience of the FFXIV community is these forums would benefit from widening their view, because we complain a lot about the Scions here, but they're immensely popular among the playerbase at large.

For the other part of "allowing other characters to grow," I see it as a natural matter of human comfort. We've worked alongside the Scions for years now and we all trust each other. If one of them is knowledgeable on a topic, it makes sense to call in the person we both know has the knowledge and who we already trust implicitly compared to some relatively random person we don't really know yet and haven't built that trust with. Think about it in real life - if you need some work done, and already have a long-time friend in that line of work who you know is good at their job, are you going to start randomly Googling other people you don't know to get the job done, or are you going to just call your friend?



I wouldn't call them "hilariously out of touch"; I'd say the opposite - they're very much in touch with the reality of the Scions' popularity and the effective need to include them in the stories they write. I see the "out of touch" take as thinking you could just effectively dispose of the Scions and it wouldn't drop the bottom out of the game.

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This is the most frustrating part about the Scions, is that we can't not have them. Due to how much the fans love them + how deep they're entrenched within the WoL's tale. They will be tied to every journey we take until the game is shut down.

I've been wanting to move on from Allagans, Ascians, Garleans, and Scions for YEARS; but, honestly, I need to quit being greedy, and take us losing the first three as my win, and be happy with it, because losing that last one is never going to happen, lol

There's clearly an issue that goes beyond scions always being there. Lately they've been struggling with writing compelling characters that could possibly take up a new slot on the scion crew.

The last actually good character we had that joined up is Estinien. They tried to shoehorn Erenville in, then completely shit the bed in Dawntrail. If they wanted his character to be a proper addition to our group, they probably needed to give him character development and stuff. Screen time. You know, the usual. Apparently the amateur writers forgot that.

Krile has been tagging along for SO long, but didn't get a crumb of character development for years. Once again, something that was supposed to change with Dawntrail presumably. Did it? No. The writers forgor.

Let's imagine for a second that the devs delete the old scions for good. What are we going to be left with? More Wuk Lamat?? There's nothing else there. Until they actually manage to write some replacements, all of these discussions are kind of pointless. I'm tired of the scions too. Until Dawntrail I was really hopeful that we'd see less of them and more of new characters. Now I'm cautiously pessimistic about meeting any more new characters the team will come up with. Zero and Wuk are the same crap in a different wrapper and the exact opposite of compelling characters.

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Originally Posted by BakoolJaJa

There's clearly an issue that goes beyond scions always being there. Lately they've been struggling with writing compelling characters that could possibly take up a new slot on the scion crew.

The last actually good character we had that joined up is Estinien. They tried to shoehorn Erenville in, then completely shit the bed in Dawntrail. If they wanted his character to be a proper addition to our group, they probably needed to give him character development and stuff. Screen time. You know, the usual. Apparently the amateur writers forgot that.

Krile has been tagging along for SO long, but didn't get a crumb of character development for years. Once again, something that was supposed to change with Dawntrail presumably. Did it? No. The writers forgor.

Let's imagine for a second that the devs delete the old scions for good. What are we going to be left with? More Wuk Lamat?? There's nothing else there. Until they actually manage to write some replacements, all of these discussions are kind of pointless. I'm tired of the scions too. Until Dawntrail I was really hopeful that we'd see less of them and more of new characters. Now I'm cautiously pessimistic about meeting any more new characters the team will come up with. Zero and Wuk are the same crap in a different wrapper and the exact opposite of compelling characters.

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If they gave Krile more scenes and more chances to actually develop as a character, that would've taken precious screen time away from wuk, and the writers can't have that or else the players might forget that the expansion is about wuk.

And unless Erenville goes on a massive training montage in 7.x patches, I don't think he's ever going to really be more prominent than what he's already been and he'll just end up being a supporting background character.

idk, if they added more Krile, all it would be is more her standing looking out at something, raising her hand to her mouth in contemplation and saying not much at all. I got tired of the little she was in the story. Not excusing the way over the top amount Wuk was the focus, but Krile wasn't saving anything.

The scions in general are cooked, they aren't characters anymore, they are just walking plot-pushers. They have no personal aspirations aside from some stamped in. "Here's where the plot goes next."
Koana getting mad was a good sign of SOME character writing taking place, but boy oh boy is the rest subpar or rushed. Ketenram was odd, just like a weird addon like the Scions.

-G'raha is a walking simp for the WoL - Jingly keys, look at the cute marketable cat boy, far from his interesting First version.
-Krile was neglected to no end in 7.0 and they said she will have a big part to play, lol
-Twins, why did they come again? I guess because they are too tired and bored to write anykind of political turmoil vying for power in Garlemalds vulnerable state with the legions coming back. Everything is fine in Garlemald now *Sweeps under rug* not like Ishgard which had major issues to reform and was shown to do that.
-Estinien, living his best life, can't argue. Being an actual ADVENTURER, doing OUR JOB, wish we could just travel with him in a duo and leave the rest behind
-Urianger, he works best with Thancred, but they got cast aside too after their fakeout "we are competing against you" arc.




Writers giving Y'shtola and Thancred a "flaw" because they had to save their lives with a massive spell

Only for them to emerge even stronger from it and not paying a price

Thancred peeves me off to no end, dude can't channel aether, but somehow is jumping around like he still can enhance his strenght with said aether, turning invisible, and can't teleport but CONVENIENTLY someone in Sharlayan invented a teleporter that you don't need to channel aether into even disregarding his cartridges and that he ruined Gunbreaker as a class and makes everyone think that Gunbreakers don't use or channel aether.

Y'shtola is a walking solution to everything with no downsides to her blindness, in fact it made her even stronger. She's plot-cat. Whenever they aren't ruining her character by trying to force some cringe anime cuteness onto her

Best buckle up and get used to "No time to breathe and look at actual living characters that are supposed to be friends with one another, having actual human moments, we need to RUSH, because PLOT is happening. SPEEEENEEEEEEEEEEEEE LISTEN TO MEEEE" *que disney song* ARHGHGHGhg

Hot take, Erenville was a stupid addon and didn't bring anything to the plot.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Thancred peeves me off to no end, dude can't channel aether, but somehow is jumping around like he still can enhance his strenght with said aether, turning invisible, and can't teleport but CONVENIENTLY someone in Sharlayan invented a teleporter that you don't need to channel aether into even disregarding his cartridges and that he ruined Gunbreaker as a class and makes everyone think that Gunbreakers don't use or channel aether.

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You know I do find it odd that all the GNB artifact sets are all covered in spare cartridges when Thancred's canonically the only one that needs extras.

LOL

You're asking this question?

Forget why were they in it... Why was anyone whatsoever except Wuk Lamat in it.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I said this before at the end of 6.4 I said it was a mistake to take the Twins out of Garlemald.

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It made sense for them to be taken out. We have never been truly close with Garlemald and they made it clear that they no longer wanted our charity. As expected. They were going back to trading with Radz a Taun. They left the rest of the Scions with pretty much no story to carry them through Dawntrail, except for maybe Yshtola. They could have elaborated on her finding the ability to cross Rifts and created whole storylines in the other star locations for now and the future. They made the Scions kind of pathetic now.

Trust NPCs

You want the real answer? The true no bullshit answer is: They needed low-impact side-characters for Trusts. Could you imagine if they had put in Y'shtola and Graha instead (which would have made more sense because Graha can be a true all rounder while Y'shtola can be DPS or Healer instead of making a RDM healer or WAR DPS)? They're such fan favorites that the entire community would have been foaming at the mouth at their lack of presence. Everyone's already used to Alisae and Alphinaud being mostly in the background and just piping up from time to time already, so it was a tactical choice to have trust characters that wouldn't necessarily rob the spotlight from Wuk Lamat.

background dancers to wookie

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Originally Posted by yoshinoharu

You want the real answer? The true no bullshit answer is: They needed low-impact side-characters for Trusts. Could you imagine if they had put in Y'shtola and Graha instead (which would have made more sense because Graha can be a true all rounder while Y'shtola can be DPS or Healer instead of making a RDM healer or WAR DPS)? They're such fan favorites that the entire community would have been foaming at the mouth at their lack of presence. Everyone's already used to Alisae and Alphinaud being mostly in the background and just piping up from time to time already, so it was a tactical choice to have trust characters that wouldn't necessarily rob the spotlight from Wuk Lamat.

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Mostly in the background? They were the main Scions the WOL interacted with including their numerous accomplishments and relationships on a whole. Not sure how you're reading that as mostly in the background. I would say Urianger and Krile are mostly in the background. I don't understand why they thought they were the best Scions going into Dawntrail. Just my opinion.

Trust system is the reason they drag these guys along i guess

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

Like ok no problem, i get the devs want us to see familiar faces... but why?

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You could extend the question to 'Why are any of the scions in DT?'

The two biggest reasons, imo, are:

1. Marketing
2. Trust system

The arcs of the scions are done. They can rest for one or two expansions and follow their own interests while we go on an adventure and seek their counsel if needed.

At this point, CBU3 is willing to put them in expansions in hopes of higher sales numbers by playing the nostalgia tunes of most players in favor of introducing a new cast.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Y'shtola is a walking solution to everything with no downsides to her blindness, in fact it made her even stronger. She's plot-cat. Whenever they aren't ruining her character by trying to force some cringe anime cuteness onto her

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God the forced clumsy cringe idiot moments are so stupid. Books falling on head? Sure, whatever. Saying her stupid anime girl incantation in front of everyone for absolutely 0 reason? It's a floating creature that can move on its own, just summon it before you walk into the room if you're so embarrassed by it. They could have even still showed the summoning to have the same effect, just not have it be in front of everyone. I hate that moment so much because it's like they want to retcon her into having a personality but they just don't know how to do it.

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

Like ok no problem, i get the devs want us to see familiar faces... but why?

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They need more people for the WukLaharem

I've never liked them they have always been dead weight and honestly I don't like their voice actors I cringe every time they are on my screen. No I'm not praising Wuk but at least she doesn't make my ears bleed.

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

Most of who we consider to be the core Scions were no more than set dressing in nearly every stage of the story before Shadowbringers (except arguably post-HW). If anything, this is a return to form lol.

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Honestly, most of the Scion's fanbase seems to like them because "lol hot". Seriously, tell me something interesting about them pre Shadowbringers that isn't "quirky".

Tbh idk why any of the scions are there. Preach points out in his video they walk off and do nothing more than they help like and absurd amount of times.

I can only assume the PR team told the devs early on that they had to incorporate the scions early on so they could promote the game to the widest audience.

Because honestly if you removed the scions completely. DTs writing and character development would have had to change alot to compensate for their expertise being missing.

They are literally crutches in this expansion for the writers.

Oh magic issue make Y'shtola do it. Diplomatic issue Blue Ali is here to save the day.

Need a espionage section dadcred is here to help.

Like there is really no reason for any new character to develop or shine. Quite frankly its a serious issue.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Trust system is the reason they drag these guys along i guess

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Playing as a SGE, it was weird to see Alphi as a RED icon SGE and master-sniper.
Four man dungeons don't need 2 healers.

I was really let down by the inclusion of all the scions too. Some, I suppose are better justified than others: Krile with her "lets figure out what peepaw was getting up to overseas" B-plot, G'raha coming along & adventuring with you (though, annoyingly, he was benched until the second half), Urianger & Thancred being Koana's chosen allies, & even Y'shtola showing up at the end to help out with the spooky dome/portal/interdimensional whatever business. I think that the best scion inclusion of this expansion was Estinien because he's off doing his own thing & we hardly see him-- & I still got sick of him.

I feel that the scions have become a crutch that is holding back FFXIV's story post-Hyd-VS-Zod-arc. They could have written a whole new cast of interesting characters that could have perhaps become our companions in the next arc: new, non-scion, Sharlayan characters to support Koana, Turali-native warriors/hunters that Wuk Lamat recruits during the rites, an Alexandian rebel or two that isn't just cannon-fodder to push the plot forward or part of Gulool Ja's cast of baby sitters...

I don't know, I feel like there was so much potential in a new arc about the Warrior of Light's new adventures for new companions & stories. I feel like I'm falling out of love with FFXIV in that regard. Wuk Lamat, Erenville, the rites, Alexandria, etc. are perfectly fine additions to the story (which may be an unpopular opinion on these forums...), but the writers' fixation on including every single scion for little to no rhyme or reason has turned a great story into a mediocre one.

I feel like they substituted a strong supporting cast for the scions because they didn't have faith in their player base being interested in any other characters. This may be the case for some [scion character]-obsessed fans, but the Haurchefant/Aymeric/Lyse/Emet-Selch/etc.-superfans are still playing the game, aren't they? Just because the scions are the most popular NPCs doesn't mean that their inclusion automatically makes a story good.

Just imagine how much more impactful all of MSQ would have been if we had a cast made up of Turali & Alexandian (post 97 msq) natives.

It really makes me sad that because of the abysmally poor character writing in Dawntrail, people get to the conclusion that the "Scions' arcs are over", that "they have nothing else to offer to the story", and that's enough of them.

It's simply not true. They had no reason to be in Dawntrail, and were actually detrimental to the situation...because they were badly written there. There was SO MUCH potential, if you get the concepts of the situations, and had written them in there with care. They all had past experiences and thoughts and feelings to add to many of the themes of the expansion, if only the writing wasn't so amateurish. Instead, we just got cardboard cutouts that sounded all the same, talked about the same things and reacted the same way to everything, and immediately left us alone with Wuk Lamat.

In Shadowbringers, no one thought any of the Scions didn't have to be there. But most of them had already gone through previous, resolved arcs in the past and that wasn't a problem. They had new things going on, and they felt important and relevant. Even in Endwalker, even if they didn't have anything major going on, their contribution to the story and the moments they were there felt right, in character, and relevant.
If you or the current writer can't think of good ways to use those beloved characters that still have so much to offer, that doesn't mean it's impossible, that's just means we need someone else writing the story.

I agree though that there isn't a need to force ALL of them to be there all the time for no reason. I'd rather not have them there than to have them not behaving like themselves and acting off, because it's just sad to watch our favorite characters get butchered by the writing.

Also the Trust excuse doesn't cut it. In ARR, they included random NPCs for story, and sometimes they can add other important NPCs as companions during the story for dungeons when it's relevant. It's not a technical limitation.