/r/ffxivdiscussion: Japanese reception to Dawntrail MSQ [SPOILERS]

Oh wow the JP comments are savage... and on point.

Please actually just get Ishikawa to write the story again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I thought the same thing; however, we have to keep in mind that these are handpicked quotes reflecting the discourse we have ourselves. I appreciate the OP trying to give a clear picture of the discussion. Still, this is also I believe a forum that is known to have a negative opinion about many things - I think lol.

I really hope the general consensus on the JP side is the story is bad, b/c it was handled in the absolute worst way compared to what we've been given - far FAR worse than ARR or Stormblood imo. I hope so b/c like you said, the JP playerbase has a far stronger influence than we do - despite I think our playerbase being larger? (Please correct me on this if I'm wrong).

We'll have to see if this changes anything though in the post patch - it might be too late for that though sadly.

---

While I agree that the forums is very negative, it also isn't inherently bad since the FFXIV community tends to dogpile/make fun of anyone who speaks negatively about the game. It's a very annoying toxic positivity and coming to the forums to complain is honestly better than going to somewhere like reddit where you'll likely get bombarded with downvotes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

The thing with Lyse is while she wasn't a strong character, she's at least self-aware and not obnoxious. The only reason she temporary step up to the leadership role at the beginning was because the Ala Mighan resistance were very distrusted of any oursider, and they desperately need a local figurehead in which her father name carried weight. Lyse was in over her head but the thing is she knew that. Once Rahbaun joint she immediately defer to him.

Wuk was basically given a miracle Mary Sue transformation who had to insert herself into everything and must have every last worst. Forget FF14 or MMO in general, I honestly can't remember the last time I see such an obnoxious character who the players supposed to like and love. This level of obnoxious does exist in other characters and games, but usually they're reserved for characters who we're supposed to hate or rage again.

---

As far as Lyse goes, if we actually got to see her development and accomplishments ourselves, I think she would have been viewed more favorably. Sadly, a lot of the good she did was done off screen. She's far from my favorite character, but she was also a victim of bad writing.

I'm seeing the same exact problems arising in DT. They prefer to tell instead of show, when showing instead of telling is the best way, especially when there's a lot to unpack. A near endless stream of cutscenes and dialogue aren't going to get most people engaged. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Pretty much agree with every one of those statements. Even ARR was more fun than this lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wildheaven182

Square Enix is a very small indie developer. Working around something like bunny ears on the head is something that can take several years and the creation of many new graphical design and 3d modeling tools, innovating the industry to new heights.

---

People like to say comments like this without realizing the truth of the matter is; when it comes to hrothgar, there's not enough to actually make it worthwhile to spend the resources to give them hats. There would be an argument for male viera, mind you, but then you alienate female viera and all hrothgar. So it gets ignored; especially when there's other cosmetic things that take priority to more players.

Bean counters suck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DreadCrow

People like to say comments like this without realizing the truth of the matter is; when it comes to hrothgar, there's not enough to actually make it worthwhile to spend the resources to give them hats. There would be an argument for male viera, mind you, but then you alienate female viera and all hrothgar. So it gets ignored; especially when there's other cosmetic things that take priority to more players.

Bean counters suck.

---

Why male and not female Viera? Bunny girls are extremely popular.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I was curious how the JP community were receiving the expansion. I can't say I disagree with their sentiments. Thanks for sharing. However, it's important to keep in mind these are handpicked comments on a possibly biased forum. I'd be interested in what our JP fellow WoL's are enjoying about the story too.

I agree with the criticisms posted here though. It feels like the writers who wrote the characters and dialogue haven't even played XIV before. Where's Alisaie's sassy sarcasm? Where's Alphinaud's leadership and Estinien crush? Where is our WoL? Almost every single line Wuk Lamat has said reminds me of our characters when we go to rally our team, forge ahead, fight for what's right, and make some super stupid decisions. I don't even mind another main character but at least let my character do something; teach her, guide her, admonish her. There's maybe one line about her sulking. I'm literally just a background nobody in a video game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I didn't want to play as the main character I wouldn't play a video game, I'd watch a movie / read a book / partake of any other kind of media. My WoL wasn't always super powerful, often times we lost or were on the run to try to figure something out; I don't need a power trip. I just wanted a well balanced and properly integrated story into this beautiful new continent with a genuinely sweet and cute character, Wuk Lamat. What I got was writing that has no idea how to integrate the WoL or anyone else besides the new characters that they themselves made up. I truly, truly hope this isn't the direction this game is going in, because it's sad to see characters I've played alongside for 10yrs get lobotomized and thrown in the background.

---

It feels like I'm playing World of Warcraft again basically. I looooooooved how integrated the WoL was in the plot. We were the star, we had actual relationships with the cast, it felt so natural. DT makes me feel like I'm just the "CHAMPION of Azeroth" all over again, doing menial chores for people just for them to kill steal me at the end. I loved seeing us develop from a green adventurer who has to kill trash while Thancred or Y'shtola tanks the real threat. To them being the trash clearers while I fight the real threat. To them literally existing in an event where we can play as them, struggling to stay alive stalling for time until WE show up. Compare that to having the character we assume control of just win while the WoL leans up against a tree looking like an idiot wondering why we are here.

I'm telling you right now. If Wuk Lamat was in Endwalker, she'd be the one we sacrifice ourselves for so she can finish the game for us. This is how useless I feel. I see people compare her to Zero as if both are just some equally cringe protaginist doing amazing things on their own. But no. Zero, actually tried to be the star. She failed. We had to save her. Playing as her, or playing as Alisae... and fighting against a monster that was like it was some raid boss. Then we play as the WoL and fight the same thing like its a trash encounter. It matters. Its different. The things Wuk Lamat fights are not trash encounters. Where is she even getting all this strength from lorewise? Other than plotarmor... I just don't see how she got so good at fighting just because she had a child race teach her about trading or had the WoL convince someone to make a gem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DreadCrow

People like to say comments like this without realizing the truth of the matter is; when it comes to hrothgar, there's not enough to actually make it worthwhile to spend the resources to give them hats. There would be an argument for male viera, mind you, but then you alienate female viera and all hrothgar. So it gets ignored; especially when there's other cosmetic things that take priority to more players.

Bean counters suck.

---

No... no. You don't have to do ANYTHING to give a viera half the helms in the game. I don't care if the ears just vanish. Let me wear the dragoon helm, and not have ear holes for it. Or not have any ear shaped sleeves that protect the ears. All you're doing is just copy/pasting an already existing model onto my head like every other race. As for the hats, or other helms that realistically could have ear holes... miqo'te have them. Why can't viera? I saw on twitter where someone already did all that "hard work" on their own. Got working hats for all viera and the hrothgar males. Just steal their work for all I care. What are they going to do? Sue square for stealing their work in some illegal mod square never gave the modder permission to make in the first place? LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swordsman

I hated the first dungeon. The second dungeon and first trial were actually pretty cool, but that first dungeon was sooo boring.

---

The second half of the game is acceptable, citizen, and you shall find more than your fair share of worthy foes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swad

This is good news, only the JPs opinion matters to SE.

---

True and based, citizen.




Sun and moon light your way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dogempire

While I agree that the forums is very negative, it also isn't inherently bad since the FFXIV community tends to dogpile/make fun of anyone who speaks negatively about the game. It's a very annoying toxic positivity and coming to the forums to complain is honestly better than going to somewhere like reddit where you'll likely get bombarded with downvotes.

---

Yeah you'll just get shadowbanned really fast at r/ffxiv if you went there with a complaint. r/ffxivdiscussion has proven to be a much better place to provide criticism of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruri

Pretty much agree with every one of those statements. Even ARR was more fun than this lol

---

I can agree with that because ARR had a certain charm to it's campy dialogue and wooden voice acting. DT has mostly been the opposite of charming so far lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lusarae

Sue square for stealing their work in some illegal mod square never gave the modder permission to make in the first place? LOL

---

SE's very risk averse when it comes to doing something that can possibly damage their reputation. If they were to steal someone else's work in the manner you suggest, it would be indirectly acknowledging that their own efforts and work have been subpar and that someone else other than their own devs are doing a better job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeebPolice

The second half of the game is acceptable, citizen, and you shall find more than your fair share of worthy foes.

---

Lol I sure hope so. There's gotta be something in this game that is redeemable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

As far as Lyse goes, if we actually got to see her development and accomplishments ourselves, I think she would have been viewed more favorably. Sadly, a lot of the good she did was done off screen. She's far from my favorite character, but she was also a victim of bad writing.

I'm seeing the same exact problems arising in DT. They prefer to tell instead of show, when showing instead of telling is the best way, especially when there's a lot to unpack. A near endless stream of cutscenes and dialogue aren't going to get most people engaged. Quite the opposite, in fact.

---

I've always argued Lyse suffered more from the poor writing around her character whereas she, herself, was reasonably consistent. It's still not great by any means but far less insufferable. Mary Sue Lamat is just that, a Mary Sue. There is not a single instance in the entirety of Dawntrail where she struggles. Sure, we're told about her insecurities but they never actually impede her. She just wants about them while everyone else, including our own character, praise and reassure her. It comes across as completely surface level just so the writer can argue she's not damn near perfect. The fact our character can't even give "..." answers like in previous expansion really highlights just how much the narrative wants you to like Wuk Lamat.

Heck, perhaps the best emphasis of that is when you unlock the EXs. The Wandering Minstrel, a character who usually champions us, outright says "Wuk Lamat and her companion." Literally every character, even small note ones, are made to wax poetics for this Mary Sue. It's absolute drivel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Sure, we're told about her insecurities but they never actually impede her. She just wants about them while everyone else, including our own character, praise and reassure her. It comes across as completely surface level just so the writer can argue she's not damn near perfect.

---

Because her insecurities are irrational. That's part of her character arc, whether it pleased anyone or not. She's unreasonably comparing her accomplishments to others, and she has to realize the silliness of that, but her actual weaknesses are that she knows less about her nation's people than she should, and her naivety -- both of which we see her overcome as well (at least in the ways that matter to the story, regarding her naivety). But her insecurities are never treated as being reflections of reality. The truth is, by the end of her arc, that she is and always was fit to rule, according to the narrative's logic. Her only real obstacle was her self-doubt, and her sense of duty still overrode that at every turn, which, again, only speaks to the writers' intent.

Point being, the writers never once pretended that she was seriously flawed. They weren't trying to fool us. I understand that you wanted a more complex character than we got, and that you want to believe the writers wanted the same thing, but I just don't think that they did. They wanted us to see beyond reasonable doubt that we were backing the correct claimant, every step of the way, and that desire created a Mary Sue. I'm not saying that anyone has to like it just because it was the intent, and I agree that they overcompensated, but it's what we got.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnintino

snip

---

But I would argue back saying that what we got was bad and that's where the issue is. Especially because she was absolutely not fit to rule and with a lack of change in her character meant that she still isn't fit to rule. She enacts no policy changes or aspirations to further the growth of her country and goes on and on about peace, but doesn't actually want to take action about anything, and every time we find a situation where we maybe can have an actual conflict, there's a magic hand wavium that fixes it, like the farmers not growing crops. Oh but we have a plant for that so you're efforts were literally for nothing lol silly eugenicists. It undermines everything else in the story, including ourselves.

It doesn't matter if it was done on purpose or not. I can intentionally put vinegar in my tea, that doesn't make the tea any good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

But I would argue back saying that what we got was bad and that's where the issue is. Especially because she was absolutely not fit to rule and with a lack of change in her character meant that she still isn't fit to rule. She enacts no policy changes or aspirations to further the growth of her country and goes on and on about peace, but doesn't actually want to take action about anything, and every time we find a situation where we maybe can have an actual conflict, there's a magic hand wavium that fixes it, like the farmers not growing crops. Oh but we have a plant for that so you're efforts were literally for nothing lol silly eugenicists. It undermines everything else in the story, including ourselves.

It doesn't matter if it was done on purpose or not. I can intentionally put vinegar in my tea, that doesn't make the tea any good.

---

Notice that I said "according to the narrative's logic", "I'm not saying that anyone has to like it", and "I agree that [the writers] overcompensated".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnintino

Notice that I said "according to the narrative's logic", "I'm not saying that anyone has to like it", and "I agree that [the writers] overcompensated".

---

You can re-highlight what you said all you want, my point is that every point of the writers intention doesn't have anything to do with writing a Mary Sue at all, but rather the execution of the intentions. Everything within those intentions can still be written in a way to make a compelling character without needing to resort to this... excrement we got. Not to mention, when critiquing a work, it's usually not considered what the author wanted, because all that really matters is what the author delivered. The message sent matters little to the message received.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaduera

You can re-highlight what you said all you want, my point is that every point of the writers intention doesn't have anything to do with writing a Mary Sue at all, but rather the execution of the intentions. Everything within those intentions can still be written in a way to make a compelling character without needing to resort to this... excrement we got. Not to mention, when critiquing a work, it's usually not considered what the author wanted, because all that really matters is what the author delivered. The message sent matters little to the message received.

---

You're just regurgitating my own point back at me. What I was responding to, and my comment, was about the issue I took with Forte's reading. Not that I think the writing is good. Not that I think it's unreasonable to dislike it or Lamat. I have no interest in arguing with someone about how they feel. It's okay to be a hater lol. If you're going to rationalize that from the perspective of the writer's intent, however, which Forte was doing, I will interject if I feel I can clarify, and I did. Now please go debate with someone who you actually disagree with, thank you.

Great talk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

"From start to finish it's just problems caused by low IQ lizards, maybe slaughtering all the savages wasn't such a bad idea"

I feel a lot of these are either bad faith or very racist

---

Life lesson for you, do not go to Japan and ask around what people's thoughts are of the Chinese, Koreans, or your average Gaijin. You will have a bad time. This is honestly what I expected to be honest.

To summarize, the problem with the story is that the succession story is less interesting to the general audience than what happens afterwards. Yet every effort was made to make the succession story as complete as possible, leaving insufficient room to give the story surrounding Section 9 the same level of polish. Too much time with Wuk Lamat and not enough time with Sphene.