Pictomancer is insanely overtuned and needs to be fixed before savage drops.

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Originally Posted by Melphina_Dragonfyre

The black mage issue is a separate one from picto though. Picto's rotation and game flow feels perfect. They nailed the job and I thoroughly enjoy playing it. Right now its potencies are a bit too high though, and that can do with some dialing back. But overnerfing pictomancer to compensate for what they did to black mage is not the answer. Fixing black mage should be a separate priority. BLM didn't deserve what it got, and undoing that damage should take precedence over anything else. I've played black mage since heavenward and I loved the iteration from endwalker. Playing picto right now feels much like playing blm in endwalker did. It feels good to play, and that shouldn't be taken away from it. Reducing its damage is fine, but it doesn't need anything more. And black mage needs some attention and love. They need to seriously reconsider how they revamped the class, because it's not working out very well.

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Potency is really the only issue i have with it, it's fun and rewarding to play like blm used to be. I want more jobs to be engaging like them, I brought up black mage because it felt like a slap in the face that we HAD to be gutted. For them to give a utility caster everything they took

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Viper/Sam and rpr (wtf?) are better than pct in adps

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They're actually quite close, quite a few PCTs in the top 100 adps for either ex trial on the site that shall not be named.
At that point, it might be a comp thing- it's defo a contender for adps, and even if it's not top dog, it's only by a sliver.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Topic title.

I'm not sure how they managed to make a job that by current math is so overtuned that it's a net RDPS gain to just bring another PCT over a lot of the other options (Especially SMN).

A job that has utility should never, ever be outdpsing a "selfish" job with no raid buffs like BLM as a baseline, but that's unfortunately the case at present.

The job itself is extremely well-designed; the potencies are just a bit too bloated for everything else it brings.

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a green picto does more dmg than a 99 smn

I beg SE adjust numbers on raid or savage patch and not wait for an additional month after savage for balance

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Originally Posted by Stasya

I beg SE adjust numbers on raid or savage patch and not wait for an additional month after savage for balance

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I hope they only nerf it slightly. Pictomancer is in an interesting place. Caster has always been a problematic role in its balance philosophy.

Black mage has always struggled in the raid scene. Most groups prefer meleex2 caster ranged DPS. On top of this, despite the lower damage, groups prefer SMN or RDM for Rez.

Pictomancer joins black mage as another high damage caster without Rez. Despite having many instant cast spells and abilities, many of them need to be setup. It needs to be dealing nonSAM melee levels of DPS.

It should be below BLM in terms of raw damage, but only just below.

I’ve seen ridiculous comments of people thinking it should be slightly above SMN and below all melee DPS. Its utility is similar to other DPS jobs, it doesn’t have a Rez, and has to hard cast more than a job like summoner.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I hope they only nerf it slightly. Pictomancer is in an interesting place. Caster has always been a problematic role in its balance philosophy.

Black mage has always struggled in the raid scene. Most groups prefer meleex2 caster ranged DPS. On top of this, despite the lower damage, groups prefer SMN or RDM for Rez.

Pictomancer joins black mage as another high damage caster without Rez. Despite having many instant cast spells and abilities, many of them need to be setup. It needs to be dealing nonSAM melee levels of DPS.

It should be below BLM in terms of raw damage, but only just below.

I’ve seen ridiculous comments of people thinking it should be slightly above SMN and below all melee DPS. Its utility is similar to other DPS jobs, it doesn’t have a Rez, and has to hard cast more than a job like summoner.

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Well he have group utility, even with long cast, pct being behind drg/rpr/nin/mnk in rdps make sense

The point is that if picto is too far behind BLM, then there isn't much point in bringing a picto. It's a pretty selfish caster DPS very similar in playstyle to BLM. It has a raid buff, a 10% party mit, and a minor heal of 400 potency that requires some setup. The job's primary role is first and foremost being a damage dealer, with a little bit of support added in. And the support abilities have a fairly long recast. Picto isn't capable of doing sustained healing, nor does it have a rez. So it should ideally be sitting a little bit below blm in power, but not too far. And let's just acknowledge that BLM is kinda F-d right now. Before making any major changes elsewhere they need to fix what they did to BLM. I'm sorely disappointed with the BLM changes in Dawntrail. This is the first expansion I've ever played where blm doesn't feel fun to play. That's a far bigger issue. Fix blm first, and lower pictos potencies a little bit. No need to break out the sledgehammer just to crack some peanuts.

Again, maybe we should talk about lifting the other caster/ranged jobs up a bit.

Especially when it comes to one of the selfish ranged dps, Machinist. Which does, as far as i can tell, overall less damage than a bard. That is the true crime here.

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Originally Posted by Melphina_Dragonfyre

The point is that if picto is too far behind BLM, then there isn't much point in bringing a picto. It's a pretty selfish caster DPS very similar in playstyle to BLM. It has a raid buff, a 10% party mit, and a minor heal of 400 potency that requires some setup. The job's primary role is first and foremost being a damage dealer, with a little bit of support added in. And the support abilities have a fairly long recast. Picto isn't capable of doing sustained healing, nor does it have a rez. So it should ideally be sitting a little bit below blm in power, but not too far. And let's just acknowledge that BLM is kinda F-d right now. Before making any major changes elsewhere they need to fix what they did to BLM. I'm sorely disappointed with the BLM changes in Dawntrail. This is the first expansion I've ever played where blm doesn't feel fun to play. That's a far bigger issue. Fix blm first, and lower pictos potencies a little bit. No need to break out the sledgehammer just to crack some peanuts.

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no it's not selfish, a selfish dps dont have raid buff (blm/sam/vip/mch)

and yes he should be behind blm in adps, rdps it can be discussed

I think its insane that SE is taking stuff away from Viper but isn't touching PCT. I have PCT at 100, my wife VPR at 100.. I think PCT needs a DMG nerf and VPR a DMG boost. I cannot believe how quickly I kill things solo compared to ANY OTHER JOB I'VE SEEN. Its *nuts.*

OP predicted picto overtuned on release day. And it is in fact, overtuned. Give OP a cookie.

I do agree picto needs to be toned down and BLM most likely needs a buff as well but I don't want them to jump the gun and nuke the job's dam. Caster as a role has been for years one of the worst balance roles in the game all thanks to one single thing...the rez. I know so many love their rez mages but the rez is what keeps the role so poorly balance and now we finally have a caster that doesn't have a rez it needs to do at least nonsam melee levels of dps to make it worth taking over a rdm or smn or as the 4th dps. I do not want it to be nerf to have slightly higher numbers than rdm/smn. If that happens no one will want it in their party. They rather have a rez mage or a BLM. There would be no reason to bring picto over rdm or smn if it numbers is similar to thiers.

Honestly, I think they really need to either completely remove the rez from casters or make the rez as a role action that has a 60-second cooldown. That is why they can easily balance this role.

Does PCT need to be nerfed? Yes.

Will people whine when PCT is nerfed? Yes.

Take some potency off PCT, and give it to BRD, and MCH please.

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Originally Posted by Ayakia

I think its insane that SE is taking stuff away from Viper but isn't touching PCT. I have PCT at 100, my wife VPR at 100.. I think PCT needs a DMG nerf and VPR a DMG boost. I cannot believe how quickly I kill things solo compared to ANY OTHER JOB I'VE SEEN. Its *nuts.*

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viper adps is higher than pct adps

Picto feels way stronger than it is because it has the ability to start every encounter with an art nuke, so weaker enemies are gonna die fast of course. Still needs a smaaall potency reduction at least.

A more pressing problem is black mage desperately needing a buff, it's not performing well. Ranged classes in general are doing pretty poorly.

PCT feels overtuned in dungeons because it benefits probably the single most of any class with downtime because the motifs are instacast outside of combat. So generally you can open a dungeon pull with say hammer 1->pom muse->hammer 2->swiftcast->wing motifs->wing muse->mog of ages->hammer 3 which is a disgusting amount of front loaded potency, but after that you fall back on your aetherhue combo which is pretty weak in AOE

In 100% uptime fights (or close to it) PCT is only slightly ahead because of its raid buff, when you pull out its raid buff it’s only doing as much as the weaker aDPS melee (like say NIN), this is fine for a selfish caster as a selfish caster should be competing with the melee for the top DPS. Tje problem is more BLM is undertuned because even though it’s selfish it’s aDPS is barely holding onto a melee spot

PCT doesn’t feel overtuned to me. It is a burst job. They said they are going to buff BLM. They didn’t say they were nerfing PCT. I hope not.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Having seen some halfway competent Pictors around, I agree that their potencies need toning down. It can easily outdo other DPS jobs by several hundred DPS.

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I don’t think so. A good VPR/SAM/RPR can do way more dps than a picto. Picto is one of those jobs that has a burst start but then the dps dies down allot until motifs come off cooldown. Not taking into effect that you have to paint them again which takes 3 seconds each time. Can only swift cast one motif every 40 seconds. Picto is not sitting at the very top of the dps charts. It’s in the top 5 for sure but not killing the selfish dps. The melee still sitting at top above picto. The only job that picto is destroying and shouldn’t is BLM which is why they are getting buffs. Picto is fine the way it is. Some are playing dungeons and thinking this but dungeons mean nothing. We shall see when savage and the new ultimate comes then that will tell if picto needs a nerf or not.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I don’t think so. A good VPR/SAM/RPR can do way more dps than a picto. Picto is one of those jobs that has a burst start but then the dps dies down allot until motifs come off cooldown. Not taking into effect that you have to paint them again which takes 3 seconds each time. Can only swift cast one motif every 40 seconds. Picto is not sitting at the very top of the dps charts. It’s in the top 5 for sure but not killing the selfish dps. The melee still sitting at top above picto. The only job that picto is destroying and shouldn’t is BLM which is why they are getting buffs. Picto is fine the way it is. Some are playing dungeons and thinking this but dungeons mean nothing. We shall see when savage and the new ultimate comes then that will tell if picto needs a nerf or not.

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They've already gathered enough info via FFLogs and other sources to show that it's mostly a problem relative to the other DPS with damage buffs/utility.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They've already gathered enough info via FFLogs and other sources to show that it's mostly a problem relative to the other DPS with damage buffs/utility.

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I get that but they not nerfing picto. They will bring blm up and that’s it. Picto is designed exactly how they wanted it. Their AoE is really good but they’re single target. It all sorta levels out well.

I don't think Picto should be doing more than SAM/BLM/VPR. But I also don't think it should be as low as SMN. I think it should be somewhat comparable to MNK, which has a nearly identical party buff and defensive/heal boosting utilities. I'd honestly prefer if they removed or nerfed the healing from Star Prism. Hardly anyone is going to save it to heal when it matters, so it seems fairly pointless to me and makes balancing more difficult.

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Originally Posted by Elleia

I don't think Picto should be doing more than SAM/BLM/VPR. But I also don't think it should be as low as SMN. I think it should be somewhat comparable to MNK, which has a nearly identical party buff and defensive/heal boosting utilities. I'd honestly prefer if they removed or nerfed the healing from Star Prism. Hardly anyone is going to save it to heal when it matters, so it seems fairly pointless to me and makes balancing more difficult.

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Agree with pretty much all of this. It should be on par with all melee DPS with utility. BLM, SAM and now VPR should deal top personal damage with PCT, RPR, MNK, DRG just below before you factor in their damage buffs.

I also agree about Star Prism. I love the flavor of the added healing, but it’s pointless. Just something for people to complain that PCT should deal less damage because it has “more” utility.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Agree with pretty much all of this. It should be on par with all melee DPS with utility. BLM, SAM and now VPR should deal top personal damage with PCT, RPR, MNK, DRG just below before you factor in their damage buffs.

I also agree about Star Prism. I love the flavor of the added healing, but it’s pointless. Just something for people to complain that PCT should deal less damage because it has “more” utility.

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I’d rather see BLM buffed than PCT nerfed. As for Star Prism, at least there’s a little more flexibility as to when it can be used. SMN got Lux Solaris, which is pretty much use it or lose it, and it never seems really needed when it’s up. At least PCT’s Star Prism does damage too!

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Originally Posted by Melphina_Dragonfyre

The point is that if picto is too far behind BLM, then there isn't much point in bringing a picto. It's a pretty selfish caster DPS very similar in playstyle to BLM. It has a raid buff, a 10% party mit, and a minor heal of 400 potency that requires some setup. The job's primary role is first and foremost being a damage dealer, with a little bit of support added in. And the support abilities have a fairly long recast. Picto isn't capable of doing sustained healing, nor does it have a rez. So it should ideally be sitting a little bit below blm in power, but not too far. And let's just acknowledge that BLM is kinda F-d right now. Before making any major changes elsewhere they need to fix what they did to BLM. I'm sorely disappointed with the BLM changes in Dawntrail. This is the first expansion I've ever played where blm doesn't feel fun to play. That's a far bigger issue. Fix blm first, and lower pictos potencies a little bit. No need to break out the sledgehammer just to crack some peanuts.

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I think this is good advice considering how this team sometimes reacts to feedback. It's not that PCT needs to nerfed into oblivion (if at all) as much as other jobs may need be buffed. BLM in particular has problems that extend beyond potency as well.

With all due respect to everyone's opinion in here people should be cautious of what they asking when it comes to class balance. Asking to nerf a job , just because their job underperformed is not the right way.If you are dissatisfied with your job ask to make it better not remove the quality of life kit of another job. Look what we managed so far with our qqing (smr/smn/ast/ninja/mnk/blm/ I.e.) and now viper is nerfed for what purpose exactly...we ask for unique identity and fun jobs to play from devs and when they give us pictomancer which is exactly that then we tell them to nerf it and it's op... I wish S.E. Just didn't read these forums honestly...

Really all they have to do is just prevent Aetherhues from being removed so that Job Flow becomes standardized, since currently you can remove those buffs and instead run Comet in Black for more damage - that's where PCT's damage is coming from during buffs after Starstruck and Mog of Ages since they burn gauge just for that. In general I just think that PCT should be 2nd in the Caster category - but not treading upon Melee DPS given the utilities it has(not including the heal that's just a given on the 2m window).

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Really all they have to do is just prevent Aetherhues from being removed so that Job Flow becomes standardized, since currently you can remove those buffs and instead run Comet in Black for more damage - that's where PCT's damage is coming from during buffs after Starstruck and Mog of Ages since they burn gauge just for that. In general I just think that PCT should be 2nd in the Caster category - but not treading upon Melee DPS given the utilities it has(not including the heal that's just a given on the 2m window).

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It’s has roughly the same utility as MNK or RPR why shouldn’t it contend with the melee

It needs to be viable for the 4th slot if it wants to have a place otherwise it doesn’t have a niche

Range should never do more damage than melee except BLM smh

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Really all they have to do is just prevent Aetherhues from being removed so that Job Flow becomes standardized, since currently you can remove those buffs and instead run Comet in Black for more damage - that's where PCT's damage is coming from during buffs after Starstruck and Mog of Ages since they burn gauge just for that. In general I just think that PCT should be 2nd in the Caster category - but not treading upon Melee DPS given the utilities it has(not including the heal that's just a given on the 2m window).

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If it doesn't at least do MNK or RPR numbers then no one will ever want it in a party. If it does near smn/rdm dps it has to compete with those jobs for the caster spot and no one will ever want a non rez caster for the caster spot. Picto is in the same spot as blm, it is competing for the 4th spot(the flex spot) in every party. This is why I have always said that caster role is one of the worst balance roles in the game bc rdm and smn are always going to be auto picked over any other caster who doesn't have a rez.

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Originally Posted by LucienFaust

Range should never do more damage than melee except BLM smh

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Then Picto will never be picked over a 2nd melee or blm bc it doesn't have a rez. SMN and RDM will always be auto-picked for the caster role. It needs to at least do close to a support melee job to be able to compete for a spot in a party.

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Originally Posted by LucienFaust

Range should never do more damage than melee except BLM smh

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I would love to know your reasoning. Most bosses allow for 100% uptime for melee. Melee don’t have cast times.

PCT is very cast heavy, doesn’t have a Rez, and has similar utility to nonSAM/VPR DPS.

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Originally Posted by Elleia

I don't think Picto should be doing more than SAM/BLM/VPR. But I also don't think it should be as low as SMN. I think it should be somewhat comparable to MNK, which has a nearly identical party buff and defensive/heal boosting utilities. I'd honestly prefer if they removed or nerfed the healing from Star Prism. Hardly anyone is going to save it to heal when it matters, so it seems fairly pointless to me and makes balancing more difficult.

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I agree with this post. It should be above RDM and Summ but below BLM as far as damage goes.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

I agree with this post. It should be above RDM and Summ but below BLM as far as damage goes.

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That’s a huge amount of space. It should obviously be lower overall in terms of raw personal damage, but near equal once you factor in its raid damage buff.

Otherwise the job is dead on arrival. Why would a group ever take a PCT if they can take BLM for superior damage, or SMN/RDM for lower damage, but access to Rez? I’ll let you in on a secret… they wouldn’t. PCT is going to be fighting for the same slot as BLM in a raid group.

It should be the MNK/NIN/DRG/RPR of casters.

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Originally Posted by Tiara1

With all due respect to everyone's opinion in here people should be cautious of what they asking when it comes to class balance. Asking to nerf a job , just because their job underperformed is not the right way.If you are dissatisfied with your job ask to make it better not remove the quality of life kit of another job. Look what we managed so far with our qqing (smr/smn/ast/ninja/mnk/blm/ I.e.) and now viper is nerfed for what purpose exactly...we ask for unique identity and fun jobs to play from devs and when they give us pictomancer which is exactly that then we tell them to nerf it and it's op... I wish S.E. Just didn't read these forums honestly...

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I agree with everything you said. The ones complaining are upset because they feel picto is outdoing their jobs and they don’t like it. Picto is not above the selfish melee. I don’t know where they are getting this from. The only job that’s it’s outdoing and shouldn’t is BLM which the devs will buff mad crazy in the coming weeks. Picto does not need a damage nerf. It must compete for that flex spot and nerfing it no one will ever take a picto. Picto is a very versatile job as it should be. Once they bring BLM up I hope it will silence this picto is overturned mess because that’s just not true. The selfish melee are still the top dogs when it comes to high sustained dps. Picto has interval high bursts dps like smn/dnc not high sustained dps like the selfish melee when it comes to longer fights. Picto is fine the way it is. Please stop trying to kill the job. It’s only been a week and the complaining is already about to destroy/homogenize Viper which is insane to me because we preach this job individuality/boredom then cry about it being to hard. I mean come on. The devs seriously needs to stop bending to ridiculous feedback. The streets ain’t made for everyone that’s why they made sidewalks. It is what it is.

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I agree with everything you said. The ones complaining are upset because they feel picto is outdoing their jobs and they don’t like it.

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And they need to understand that dungeons aren't a good gauge for picto's performance in a raid scenario. Picto is really strong with its AoE, but its single target DPS is pretty in line with the other DPS classes. When you're fighting a raid with only one boss its DPS isn't nearly as high comparatively. Picto benefits more than any other job from the downtime running between mob pulls because the motif's are insta cast out of combat. You don't get that benefit in a raid, and swiftcast has a 40 second cooldown. It's really good at opening every trash pull with a salvo of strong AoE, but when you get to the bigger bosses it's not outpacing the crowd. The muse's don't do nearly as much work when they only hit one target instead of eight, and hard casting the motif's adds up. Blm will get some fixes and things will be fine. Picto isn't actually out of line like people think it is. They're just looking at the dungeon numbers without analyzing WHY those numbers are what they are. Context is important here.

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Originally Posted by Melphina_Dragonfyre

And they need to understand that dungeons aren't a good gauge for picto's performance in a raid scenario. Picto is really strong with its AoE, but its single target DPS is pretty in line with the other DPS classes. When you're fighting a raid with only one boss its DPS isn't nearly as high comparatively. Picto benefits more than any other job from the downtime running between mob pulls because the motif's are insta cast out of combat. You don't get that benefit in a raid, and swiftcast has a 40 second cooldown. It's really good at opening every trash pull with a salvo of strong AoE, but when you get to the bigger bosses it's not outpacing the crowd. The muse's don't do nearly as much work when they only hit one target instead of eight, and hard casting the motif's adds up. Blm will get some fixes and things will be fine. Picto isn't actually out of line like people think it is. They're just looking at the dungeon numbers without analyzing WHY those numbers are what they are. Context is important here.

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Exactly! Even in the four man dungeons when we get to the boss sure I’m top damage in the beginning but soon as my burst ends and my motifs are on CD or even coming off CD the viper/sam usually get ahead of me in damage and it stays that way the rest of the fight. Like I said the selfish melee has sustained high damage while pictomancer high damage is in intervals. It’s not sustained. Once they buff blm I guarantee all this overtuned picto mess will end because BLM will be right back to being top caster.

no way can Pct remain so strong, Blm & Pct dps should be swapped
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and per design, Pct should feel / play more like a support caster (while Smn should be more of a dps caster.., just from the lore / design), that won't change anytime soon ofc..., but does seem odd, that an "artistic" class is more OP than a summoner of BAHAMUT..
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yep, Blm will need / get a buff.., and Pct probably a slight nerf

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Originally Posted by Sequora

That’s a huge amount of space. It should obviously be lower overall in terms of raw personal damage, but near equal once you factor in its raid damage buff.

Otherwise the job is dead on arrival. Why would a group ever take a PCT if they can take BLM for superior damage, or SMN/RDM for lower damage, but access to Rez? I’ll let you in on a secret… they wouldn’t. PCT is going to be fighting for the same slot as BLM in a raid group.

It should be the MNK/NIN/DRG/RPR of casters.

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First off, the vast majority of people just bring the class they like to play, you don't need anything near a perfect meta team comp to clear any content in this game. Like using the meta comp is only relevant if your going for the best clear time.

And even when you go for speed clear, people just take BLM for it damage anyway and only switch to SMN if the fight is unfriendly to caster. Like, the only thing this would change is that people switch to PCT instead. RDM is already left to dust in this context yet I don't see you complaining about that.

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Originally Posted by Melphina_Dragonfyre

And they need to understand that dungeons aren't a good gauge for picto's performance in a raid scenario. Picto is really strong with its AoE, but its single target DPS is pretty in line with the other DPS classes. When you're fighting a raid with only one boss its DPS isn't nearly as high comparatively. Picto benefits more than any other job from the downtime running between mob pulls because the motif's are insta cast out of combat. You don't get that benefit in a raid, and swiftcast has a 40 second cooldown. It's really good at opening every trash pull with a salvo of strong AoE, but when you get to the bigger bosses it's not outpacing the crowd. The muse's don't do nearly as much work when they only hit one target instead of eight, and hard casting the motif's adds up. Blm will get some fixes and things will be fine. Picto isn't actually out of line like people think it is. They're just looking at the dungeon numbers without analyzing WHY those numbers are what they are. Context is important here.

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yeah except...its not...on ex2 for example picto does about 2k more rpds than the melees 3k more than blm and about 4-5k more than rd smn