Will there be SOLO queue for PVP in Dawntrail

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

It's fair because everyone has the choice to group up, to make calls, and to play a strong job.

You're free to not do these things, but not doing so is handicapping yourself. If you're wanting to win, you can't really complain when not taking advantage of these things.

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Can I complain on the grounds that, when there is one premade on the field, the matches are insufferably tedious?

I'd also suggest that in a mode in which the vast majority of players want to queue solo, it's a little disingenuous to tell them they should party up else they deserve to get stomped. I understand your grand plan is to have more premades and commanders on the field, and you may ultimately succeed simply because you drive the rest of us away. Whether that is "fair" or not is subjective, I guess.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Aa for if it's desirable... generally, I think so. I want people to work more closely together and improve their gameplay so we can move on to new strategies and tactics.

I don't think premades are incredibly strong. I think it is the playerbase that is incredibly weak. They die over and over to the same setup, and don't start wondering how to stop it, counter it, or use it themselves.

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It ain't getting any stronger when a talented WAR spends her time fishing, honey.

Here's my latest "thing that will never happen even though it's perfectly possible."

Raiders already travel from the other DCs to Aether. People on Dynamis who want to do just about anything have to travel. So exploit this fact to keep everyone happy. Specifically:

Aether FL continues to allow light parties.

Crystal and Primal are solo queue only.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'd also suggest that in a mode in which the vast majority of players want to queue solo, it's a little disingenuous to tell them they should party up else they deserve to get stomped.

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It's also the mode where a large subsection don't care about winning or losing. If you do care about winning, then I think it's good advice to tell them to group up with like minded people. I'd also suggest talking with actual good players, reading up on my guide, learning all the jobs, along with a plethora of other things.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

It's also the mode where a large subsection don't care about winning or losing. If you do care about winning, then I think it's good advice to tell them to group up with like minded people. I'd also suggest talking with actual good players, reading up on my guide, learning all the jobs, along with a plethora of other things.

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Right this is a critical difference between us. I play to win, but winning isn't the most important thing for me in FL. If it was I'd join you when you make lfg posts. I'm assuming you'd be okay with me playing my best job (WAR), although I can manage AST. But why would I do that? It's not interesting to me. I really do regard it as equivalent to playing a single-player game with a cheat code (if not ethically, then in terms of the satisfaction I would derive from it).

There's a conflict here between "win at any cost" (the same mindset that gave us GC synching and 8-party abominations which have since been rightly banned), which currently expresses itself through light parties, and solo players who can only have an impact on a match in the absence of a premade. In order to enjoy the mode, I have to spend a lot of time not playing. All I'm asking for is a home for solo players.

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Originally Posted by Bunny_Girl

This is precisely why premade teams shouldn't be matched against non-premade teams.

There's a difference between you and me.

You're fine with exploiting the inexperienced to win. It's acceptable by my standards, but the more you win, the more players you scare away from participating in PvP mode in a long run.

As for me, I don't mind losing if it's satisfying. I want fairness and enjoyment for everyone in PvP, even in defeat.

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We're in 2 different worlds. Let me show you a piece of mines. (see lower comments)

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Here's my latest "thing that will never happen even though it's perfectly possible."

Raiders already travel from the other DCs to Aether. People on Dynamis who want to do just about anything have to travel. So exploit this fact to keep everyone happy. Specifically:

Aether FL continues to allow light parties.

Crystal and Primal are solo queue only.

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I'm pretty certain it's one or the other for all data centers...here's my gripe though. Whether it's vets and newbies, casual and hardcore, groupies and soloists, we for some reason can't seem to come to a middle ground. We already telling duos and other groupies who want to play CC together to either fill thy group or go to frontlines. If frontlines goes solo I'm pretty certain that Rival Wings will follow suit to make things 'fun and fair'. Do we just send the groupies to pve after changes? If so, I'm not sure what makes soloist any different than premades since in either scenario a group of people are being chased away.
I'll be fair here. I'm trying so hard not to become another Emet. I only see myself failing as time passes by. Sure, things got better with the removal of 8 man and being forced to freelance. However, my world was also torn apart in the process. I went from taking majority of my games serious to be told that I should play a different game mode for taking them serious, from being creative with how I help the team to being forced to group with just the zerg strategy, from raising a team on my own combatting the most dominant gc to praying to RNG that I have people willing to fight and not solely farming, from outsmarting certain premades in 24 to being forced to be at their mercy in 72. Despite all of these changes I still play trying to recapture that fun I once had. It's gettinging difficult though. Those who used to group 8 man, majority I don't see anymore. Those who enjoy CC that wanted to group with others, I hardly see these days. I would like to enjoy my games with others as a soloist, but with everything being pushed towards solos only it's getting more difficult to enjoy the victories I do get. It's getting difficult not to quit entirely. It's extremely gotten difficult making friends who also likes to pvp. The past journey was brutal. The rules were brutal. My first 100 games were 10-20-70. However, they was also where my best win rate was right before all of these bomb changes. I don't want anyone having to go through this. However, I do hate how badly the past is received. It was horrible. It wasn't that horrible though. That, to me, is just being overly exaggerated. To me..

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Aa for if it's desirable... generally, I think so. I want people to work more closely together and improve their gameplay so we can move on to new strategies and tactics.

I don't think premades are incredibly strong. I think it is the playerbase that is incredibly weak. They die over and over to the same setup, and don't start wondering how to stop it, counter it, or use it themselves.

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If you would have said lazy I would have agreed with you. I've been seeing examples of that for 6 years now. Weak? No. Hard disagree. There's just not an incentive to try. While that isn't an acceptable excuse people do come and play frontlines for various reasons. You can't put the blame on everyone for how things are now. If you gave everyone an incentive to try then maybe games would improve overall. Finding that incentive is the tricky part. However, I think that should be doable in the forums...if folks are willing to find a middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Bunny_Girl

This is precisely why premade teams shouldn't be matched against non-premade teams.

There's a difference between you and me.

You're fine with exploiting the inexperienced to win. It's acceptable by my standards, but the more you win, the more players you scare away from participating in PvP mode in a long run.

As for me, I don't mind losing if it's satisfying. I want fairness and enjoyment for everyone in PvP, even in defeat.

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It's not inexperience, it's complacency. And explot? I don't know why people act like pressing your damage buttons at the same time is some unintended design when its been the winning strategy in pvp for 3 expansions.

I to can enjoy a balanced game, but I'd rather it be of strong, competent players, communicating and trying to outwit their opponents. Not some sort of disorganized mob of people who will not only not communicate, but scorn anyone who attempts to.

I'm starting to think yall would rather just have FL be filled with trust bots. At least then you can have a true solo que.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

It's not inexperience, it's complacency. And explot? I don't know why people act like pressing your damage buttons at the same time is some unintended design when its been the winning strategy in pvp for 3 expansions.

I to can enjoy a balanced game, but I'd rather it be of strong, competent players, communicating and trying to outwit their opponents. Not some sort of disorganized mob of people who will not only not communicate, but scorn anyone who attempts to.

I'm starting to think yall would rather just have FL be filled with trust bots. At least then you can have a true solo que.

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That's the last thing I'd want. I enjoy playing with other players, but on a level playing field. I've mentioned before, you cannot possibly know what current games without premades are like since you never queue solo. Sure, some of them are a clownfest. But many involve plenty of communication, flanking, baiting, and coordination. And they are far more interesting (to me) than those featuring premades.

You say you far prefer a game of strong, competent players. Me too. But just because you've brought three strong players with you doesn't impact the composition of the other 68! It does, however, drive some competent players away.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

It's not inexperience, it's complacency. And explot? I don't know why people act like pressing your damage buttons at the same time is some unintended design when its been the winning strategy in pvp for 3 expansions.

I to can enjoy a balanced game, but I'd rather it be of strong, competent players, communicating and trying to outwit their opponents. Not some sort of disorganized mob of people who will not only not communicate, but scorn anyone who attempts to.

I'm starting to think yall would rather just have FL be filled with trust bots. At least then you can have a true solo que.

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You presumably appreciate that the word "communicate" means the exchange of ideas between people right? From what I recall, there is no actual communication in your matches at all, largely because nobody else can get a word in edgewise due to your spam flood. That's not communication, it's one person issuing orders and the others either obeying or tuning you out.

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Originally Posted by Bunny_Girl

Perhaps we can implement the following queues:

Premade queue: exclusively for premade groups
Solo queue: exclusively for solo players
Express lane: for those indifferent to grouping

This way, players know exactly what they're queuing up for.

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I suspect even in Olivia's personal Utopia you'll never get enough premades to fill a match, but I can certainly see solo only and mixed, with express queue putting you in either.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

That's the last thing I'd want. I enjoy playing with other players, but on a level playing field. I've mentioned before, you cannot possibly know what current games without premades are like since you never queue solo. Sure, some of them are a clownfest. But many involve plenty of communication, flanking, baiting, and coordination. And they are far more interesting (to me) than those featuring premades.

You say you far prefer a game of strong, competent players. Me too. But just because you've brought three strong players with you doesn't impact the composition of the other 68! It does, however, drive some competent players away.

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I got news for you pal. The competent players are all playing Crystalline Conflict, not caring about the nonexistent sanctity of Frontline solo queue. Let people play with their friends in an MMO. It's just that shrimple.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

I got news for you pal. The competent players are all playing Crystalline Conflict, not caring about the nonexistent sanctity of Frontline solo queue. Let people play with their friends in an MMO. It's just that shrimple.

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Ah the arrogance of the PvP gatekeeper. Of course they are "pal."

Jfc

How many times do I have to say I am not trying to ban people playing with friends, I just want the option of a solo queue so I can play in competitive, interesting matches.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Ah the arrogance of the PvP gatekeeper. Of course they are "pal."

Jfc

How many times do I have to say I am not trying to ban people playing with friends, I just want the option of a solo queue so I can play in competitive, interesting matches.

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Ain't gatekeeping shit. Just telling you what it is. Frontline is mostly people leveling, people who don't know their buttons, or people whose focus is mostly on their Netflix screen. You may get a decent game now and then but not a single lobby is filled with people that are like-minded as you. "Competition" in Frontline is a farce. Split the queue like that and you'll do more damage than good.

CC would be incredibly epic if I could play with my friends. =)

solo queue would never pop for frontlines. the only reason people queue this irrelevant game mode is for the daily roulette. If you split the queues you can enjoy the 30 minute average wait times as nothing ever pops. the sooner you realize frontlines are just a casual and afkable adventure to level your level 43 astrologian that you'll never play, the better.

if people want to tryhard it who cares. let them flex their "amazing" pvp skills as they press three buttons on top of a dark knight pull then run away because they haven't figured out anything else yet. they can pat themselves on the back as they aoe down some dad gamers who dont even know whats going on.

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Originally Posted by Bunny_Girl

Perhaps we can implement the following queues:

Premade queue: exclusively for premade groups
Solo queue: exclusively for solo players
Express lane: for those indifferent to grouping

This way, players know exactly what they're queuing up for.

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YES please. But also adept the Rewards, so solo/express gets most and premade the least.

i play plenty of pvp. most players don't care about pvp in any form. it's a niche category in its entirety. very few dedicated pvp players aren't going to bother with frontline because it's an outdated poorly designed mode compared to CC. you can see where the development time is going. if you still care about frontlines in 2024 you're just a pub stomper avoiding the only relevant pvp grounds, because large-scale combat in this game is bad and it isn't meant for it.

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Originally Posted by saucyshortcake

solo queue would never pop for frontlines. the only reason people queue this irrelevant game mode is for the daily roulette. If you split the queues you can enjoy the 30 minute average wait times as nothing ever pops. the sooner you realize frontlines are just a casual and afkable adventure to level your level 43 astrologian that you'll never play, the better.

if people want to tryhard it who cares. let them flex their "amazing" pvp skills as they press three buttons on top of a dark knight pull then run away because they haven't figured out anything else yet. they can pat themselves on the back as they aoe down some dad gamers who dont even know whats going on.

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I've said this in a different thread, but I think separating the queues solos will be the only one to be popping. While I have absolutely no proof of this whatsoever I can probably take this guess by looking at the queue syncs when it comes to frontlines. Can queue syncing currently survive without hopping into the regular lobby? If not, then you might want to find a better argument. I am taking into account that we're at the end of the expansion and that many is taking a break.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

YES please. But also adept the Rewards, so solo/express gets most and premade the least.

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There's already an offer to split the premades from the soloists. Why are you offering to further punish those that decides to group on top of this offered change? You may as well just make it forced solos and call it a day. I shouldn't have to say this, but besides the dominant light party or parties that everyone runs into and possible knows by name there are other light parties that are out there for just experience points and queues once a day as well.

People are so mad about broken combos and a pvp design not suited for frontlines that they're ready to give the middlefinger to everybody that just like queuing with their friends in the process. It's sad.

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Originally Posted by Valence

People are so mad about broken combos and a pvp design not suited for frontlines that they're ready to give the middlefinger to everybody that just like queuing with their friends in the process. It's sad.

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Queueing with friends who just happened to pick drk etc to destroy entire parties each lb and make match miserable for 2 opposing teams.

No ty, give people SOLO queue, even if it will be longer.

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Originally Posted by saucyshortcake

if people want to tryhard it who cares. let them flex their "amazing" pvp skills as they press three buttons on top of a dark knight pull then run away because they haven't figured out anything else yet. they can pat themselves on the back as they aoe down some dad gamers who dont even know whats going on.

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I see what's going on and i can't help these dad gamers because i am playing solo, so nope, party should face against each other just like in any other normal pvp game for example dota

if you think all that many people are into frontlines besides getting a roulette done you're absolutely mental. back before they had the roulette existed they had to allow 8v8v8 games to pop because a lot of the time you didn't have anyone queueing it, let alone enough for a 72 player game. beyond pure prime time hours there weren't games going at all. the only one that ever spawned for most of stormblood was shatter, and the literal only reason it was popping with any regularity is because there was an extremely high-use bot that only had routing for shatter. in today's game you'd have to have everyone that wanted to play frontlines beyond a daily roulette on one data center at all times.

i've played plenty of games, sometimes i go for a stretch of them. you can queue 3-5 games in a row and tell me how many repeat players you see. it won't be a lot, and definitely not enough to pop games if they weren't giving a roulette bonus.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Queueing with friends who just happened to pick drk etc to destroy entire parties each lb and make match miserable for 2 opposing teams.

No ty, give people SOLO queue, even if it will be longer.

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You're assuming a lot, especially when it comes to groups that don't even field DRK or any meta jobs. I don't think I remember an actual day I queued with friends where we went for anything remotely close. But I guess we can continue putting all the groups into the same bag for the sake of convenience.

Your solo queue won't be longer if it's the default queue anyway. It's the multiplayer queue that's gonna be dead, essentially prompting everybody to play solo unless they want to queue sync in their corner.

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Originally Posted by EvianYmir89

Curious why people being frustrated about something made you tell them to “get good”. I’m guessing you’re on a premade group in FL usually and from what I can also see you play on an EU by your character info. Seriously doubt the N.A. servers and EU servers are comparable PvP wise. Regardless people are allowed to be annoyed.

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Take a good second read of the word solo. Most people being frustrated are either impatient or just not good at the game, and case in point they have barely put in the time to get good. Complain all you want, but if you have spent 20 hours in the mode, you have experienced peanuts. I can see the good players, sometimes they get grumpy for a game or two, but that's the extent of it.

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Originally Posted by Bunny_Girl

let's try not to misunderstand each other. Look, I run with friends sometimes too, so it's cool if you want to queue up with your pals. But it's important that matches are fair, I think if you are in a group and you should fight with another group with similar skill level. so things are balanced out. And, I'm not against any "broken combos" either. With a bit of map smarts and good judgment, we can handle whatever comes our way



You are right! This MMORPG is mostly for casual players. If I wanted serious PvP action, I'd jump into Dota or CS go something like that.

But you know what? FL PvP could be awesome. There's a lot of good stuff happening, and it's usually a blast whether you're solo or with a group (at least for me). I'm just saying, let's give solo players a fair option and see how it pans out. It's weird how some people get so worked up and think I'm against group play. Not true at all.

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The solo option already is fair. FL already is good. Premades' odds are stacked in their favor, but gitting gud goes a long way in fighting them. And you can do it casually, no need to try hard or make it competitive, it's just pvp in an mmo and it's never been serious anyway.

And sometimes it's not even premades, just good players being put together because of rng.

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Originally Posted by saucyshortcake

i play plenty of pvp. most players don't care about pvp in any form. it's a niche category in its entirety. very few dedicated pvp players aren't going to bother with frontline because it's an outdated poorly designed mode compared to CC. you can see where the development time is going. if you still care about frontlines in 2024 you're just a pub stomper avoiding the only relevant pvp grounds, because large-scale combat in this game is bad and it isn't meant for it.

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Of course, you can see it in the very active ranked CC queue. Oh wait...

Even a mode requiring so few players is barely played. And it's not even a matter of roulette.

Talk about a terrible take. Also most FL players are repeat players actually.

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Originally Posted by Bunny_Girl

let's try not to misunderstand each other. Look, I run with friends sometimes too, so it's cool if you want to queue up with your pals. But it's important that matches are fair, I think if you are in a group and you should fight with another group with similar skill level. so things are balanced out. And, I'm not against any "broken combos" either. With a bit of map smarts and good judgment, we can handle whatever comes our way.

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I still do believe the fundamental problem emerges from uses of a system that is primarily not designed for the mode but for CC, and that if one wants to address the problem, it's by taking a long hard look at said problem instead of just axing any multiplayer options whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Of course, you can see it in the very active ranked CC queue. Oh wait...

Even a mode requiring so few players is barely played. And it's not even a matter of roulette.

Talk about a terrible take. Also most FL players are repeat players actually.

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you're comparing unranked frontlines to ranked cc queues. apples to oranges.

and you call my take bad, lol.

if there was such a thing as ranked frontlines, it wouldn't pop either. and sure. most FL players are repeat players. they repeat it once a day for the roulette.

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Originally Posted by Bunny_Girl

The logic behind splitting the queue seems plausible, but without data, we can't judge if it's a bad idea. We just don't know.

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The data is that SE takes forever to make changes. Multiple patch cycles or entire expansions go by before changes of significance happen. Astrogalos is still gone. Secure is still gone. FL has been suffering from similarly-themed issues since Stormblood. If you get your wish of a "trial" period, then we'll be stuck in it for a damaging amount of time.

But let's be real, anyone advocating for these separate queues knows fully that even if solo continues to pop, premade ones will only pop when the community forces it to. It's short-sighted and selfish.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You're assuming a lot, especially when it comes to groups that don't even field DRK or any meta jobs. I don't think I remember an actual day I queued with friends where we went for anything remotely close. But I guess we can continue putting all the groups into the same bag for the sake of convenience.

Your solo queue won't be longer if it's the default queue anyway. It's the multiplayer queue that's gonna be dead, essentially prompting everybody to play solo unless they want to queue sync in their corner.

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So be it, you want to stomp people? Go wait in queue :) (oops and face same stack people :( ) If you think groups vs groups is a bad idea try to play good mm games like dota vs coordinated party .....

I'm sorry but what does this even have to do with dota? That comparison holds zero water.

I also don't queue up in meta premades. I actually have never tried so far.

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Originally Posted by saucyshortcake

you're comparing unranked frontlines to ranked cc queues. apples to oranges.

and you call my take bad, lol.

if there was such a thing as ranked frontlines, it wouldn't pop either. and sure. most FL players are repeat players. they repeat it once a day for the roulette.

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I'm comparing participation. So yes, yours is a bad take indeed.
Also, your last sentence is just very, very telling. That is, you have no clue what you're doing in FL and no clue who you play with or who you are facing. In short, clueless about FL.

do you actually simply not understand the difference between a ranked play mode and a daily casual roulette?

reply further if you want, but i'm done making any attempt to refute walking ignorance/dunning-kruger.

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Originally Posted by saucyshortcake

do you actually simply not understand the difference between a ranked play mode and a daily casual roulette?

reply further if you want, but i'm done making any attempt to refute walking ignorance/dunning-kruger.

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Don't change the subject or twist/ignore it to fit your narrative, I've made my point clear. That is, you're ignorant and don't know yet you speak as if. Better yet, talk about dunning-kruger when you speak of frontlines, really, keep doing that indeed...

Went into FL with my Wife Yesterday evening. 3 Games, 3 times both enemy teams had premades. Our Team was just permafarmed by 7318731 DRK's and their Astros/Dragoons until the premades had to face each other. We played something else afterwards.

Just did my one-and-done on Seal. We got the premade with DRK commander. I managed to land on their first two dives with WAR and unload everything. Had BH5 after 3 mins. Bored stupid. I don't imagine the other two teams, neither of whom hit 250, were very impressed either. It's such a one-dimensional, uninteresting playstyle. It was, however, quick.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Went into FL with my Wife Yesterday evening. 3 Games, 3 times both enemy teams had premades. Our Team was just permafarmed by 7318731 DRK's and their Astros/Dragoons until the premades had to face each other. We played something else afterwards.

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Playing against premades is not something you do with only a few hours poured into the mode unfortunately. It's more about learning how these specific players play, because chances are you'll often meet them. Odds will always be stacked in their favor but you can prevent them from snowballing too hard if you know what you're doing. And if you don't want to bother, they usually go for packs of players and not necessarily objectives so...

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Originally Posted by Teno

Playing against premades is not something you do with only a few hours poured into the mode unfortunately. It's more about learning how these specific players play, because chances are you'll often meet them. Odds will always be stacked in their favor but you can prevent them from snowballing too hard if you know what you're doing. And if you don't want to bother, they usually go for packs of players and not necessarily objectives so...

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The Problem is not that i would not know what to do against premades, the problem is people not listening when i try to help them or not even caring if they win or lose. They are just here for the XP and tomes and they get those no matter what.
It does nothing if i know how to behave against premades when the rest of the Team doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

The Problem is not that i would not know what to do against premades, the problem is people not listening when i try to help them or not even caring if they win or lose. They are just here for the XP and tomes and they get those no matter what.
It does nothing if i know how to behave against premades when the rest of the Team doesn't.

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The was a long conversation in another thread about how one would construct a matchmaking algorithm for FL, Part of my motivation was that the current skill (and motivation) spread in FL enormous, and part of the reason many games can be so unbalanced and dull. Various ideas involving K/D/A, damage and modifications for job type were advanced. I just realized we were going about it completely the wrong way.

The obvious stat to filter players is win-rate.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

The Problem is not that i would not know what to do against premades, the problem is people not listening when i try to help them or not even caring if they win or lose. They are just here for the XP and tomes and they get those no matter what.
It does nothing if i know how to behave against premades when the rest of the Team doesn't.

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Sadly this is the crux of mmos, can't do much about others in pugs, especially in such a pve centric game. Honestly if you want to enjoy the mode, the best you can do is get better yourself and not take it seriously, especially winning in a 3-faction mode. You can achieve a lot as a solo player but it takes practice. And there are many ways to play it too.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The was a long conversation in another thread about how one would construct a matchmaking algorithm for FL, Part of my motivation was that the current skill (and motivation) spread in FL enormous, and part of the reason many games can be so unbalanced and dull. Various ideas involving K/D/A, damage and modifications for job type were advanced. I just realized we were going about it completely the wrong way.

The obvious stat to filter players is win-rate.

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They could indeed make some sort of matchmaking, ie split premades evenly across alliances, and then split players evenly based on total games played (and to another degree winrate), because it's pretty much the only metric to gauge someone's experience in the mode. I've had countless games where 2 parties were completely filled with regulars/premades. Stomp everytime, boring games on every end.