Jobstones

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

the biggest sin in the quoted example you mentioned is that the gladiator quests are actually decent, and the idea of axing them in favor of just keeping the paladin ones makes me want to scream :D

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Considering most of the paladin quests either go right back to gladiator anyway or just plain suck, yeah, that'd be pretty bad.

2 true stories about jobstones

When I was new I couldn't get past a particular job quest (during stormblood as a summoner). I knew it had to be a gear issue so I was questing trying to get upgrades and spending nearly all my gil trying to buy vendor gear. One day I was passing through gridania aetherite area and a lady asked me why at lvl 35 I didn't have a jobstone. I was tired and just flat told her the truth and how I was trying to deal with it. She went off and made me a set of gear for 35 and just gave it to me. I got through all my quests and got my stone immediately.

My sister tried the game. She was nearly 50 when I asked her why she didn't have her job stone her answer was "I want to be an archer and not a musician." Yeah we had a little talk about Bard and how she would still be a bow wielder.

There can be reasons people don't have it. I think many times its in how we ask why they do not have one that dictates the response.

Anyway, I wonder if someone can clear UCOB without job stones...

The way that corner of the community is going UCOB is going to be cleared without players very soon

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

I want to see people try do to hard content as classes. Savage or Ultimate, without any job stones. If that is even possible.

To be serious, job stones should be made mandatory early on so you can't enter any instance past level 30 without one.

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Probably possible in ARR and HW days, considering the cross-class system was a thing and Classes could gain access to 10 skills with less limitations than Jobs. Definitely not now though, since most Classes tend to stop learning how to function around level 40 (ACN doesn't learn anything after level 30). Honestly have no idea how THM could forget how to cast Thunder III and Blizzard III.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Probably possible in ARR and HW days, considering the cross-class system was a thing and Classes could gain access to 10 skills with less limitations than Jobs. Definitely not now though, since most Classes tend to stop learning how to function around level 40 (ACN doesn't learn anything after level 30). Honestly have no idea how THM could forget how to cast Thunder III and Blizzard III.

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I more meant if it's possible to enter such instances without job stones being equipped to begin with. Not if it was possible to win.

Under these circumstances it's obviously a pre-made group so if they want to have fun doing ultimate as classes, they should be able to. Just only in a pre-made.

My wife refuses to use a job stone just because she finds it funny to see people complaining about it. She leveled rogue to 80 during ShB lol

Seems like a logical addition so long as it's implemented correctly. Just make it so one has to be equipped to queue.

So long as they don't remove the option to remove a stone after acquiring it. You can do a lot of QoL space saving macros using the class hotbars. This is a huge deal to me as a console player.

1. Jobstones should be removed as equippable items. They should just "auto-equip" after level 30, maybe with an updated visual in the character window, when you change weapons. It is frankly ridiculous that we need to do both just to change jobs.

2. SMN should be split off from Arcanist into its own job. Just reassign all of its identity to "SMN" instead of "ARC" like expansion jobs, and have it be acquired and start leveling at level 30 absent the ARC pre-reqs. Like a HW job but beginning at ARR-appropriate level 30 instead of 50.

3. To compliment SMN and make it feel less lonely as the only "ARR-bonus job", do the same for the other actual ARR-bonus job, NIN. Separate NIN from RGE, reassign all of its identity to "NIN" instead of "RGE", and have it be acquired and start leveling at level 30 as an "expansion" job. It is easily the most dissonant matchup between class and job quests and would benefit most from the restructuring.

4. Build out the newly opened Rogue class as a limited job with its own job stone. Keep the great job quest story (and maybe expand it for more piracy shenanigans), but just repurpose the job as its own thing. Make its limited gimmick focused on stealing items from enemies. The rogue identity doesn't have much space combat-wise between Ninja and Viper, but could do enough as a sort of evasion and mugging sidegame. The other benefit of making Rogue a limited class would be very easy weapon design, since like BLU their weapons are mostly aesthetic and they only need a small handful as glam incentives. They could repurpose a couple of the 1-30 dagger designs, design a few more for lv. 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, and the job would be set.

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Originally Posted by JediFirefly

My wife refuses to use a job stone just because she finds it funny to see people complaining about it. She leveled rogue to 80 during ShB lol

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Yeah its funny when people intentionally grief the party apparently.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

2. SMN should be split off from Arcanist into its own job. Just reassign all of its identity to "SMN" instead of "ARC" like expansion jobs, and have it be acquired and start leveling at level 30 absent the ARC pre-reqs. Like a HW job but beginning at ARR-appropriate level 30 instead of 50.

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I would argue that Scholar should be the one split off. Summoner follows more obviously from arcanist, as a DPS using summoned arcane creatures as a focus. Scholar branches off into healing instead.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I would argue that Scholar should be the one split off. Summoner follows more obviously from arcanist, as a DPS using summoned arcane creatures as a focus. Scholar branches off into healing instead.

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However SCH retains actual pet control being somewhat core to their job design which despite the ground up rework is still very much part of ACN’s lore

SMN meanwhile could delete carbuncle tomorrow and nothing would change

SCH thematically flows better from ACN than SMN does

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

However SCH retains actual pet control being somewhat core to their job design which despite the ground up rework is still very much part of ACN’s lore

SMN meanwhile could delete carbuncle tomorrow and nothing would change

SCH thematically flows better from ACN than SMN does

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Scholar's fairy is an entirely separate entity that comes with their job stone. Carbuncles and egis are both created from the caster's aether. (Which also explains, in lore terms, why we can glamour the egis back into carbuncles, but not the fairies.)

ACN also doesn't actually control the carbuncle in any meaningful way anymore either.

Thematically speaking, SCH branching off from ACN is still valid.. Them summoning carbuncles as ACN is still put to use when summoning Lily. And just because an ACN have switched to SCH doesn't mean they can no longer summon Carbuncle. They are still ACN to the core. So yeah, Carbuncle glamour on SCH is still valid.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Thematically speaking, SCH branching off from ACN is still valid.. Them summoning carbuncles as ACN is still put to use when summoning Lily. And just because an ACN have switched to SCH doesn't mean they can no longer summon Carbuncle. They are still ACN to the core. So yeah, Carbuncle glamour on SCH is still valid.

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In terms of actions, though, ARC to SMN mostly stays the same as you level up. SCH actually loses ARC abilities when you add the job stone. I find ARC to SCH really jarring actually. I also agree with the other poster about the faeries being separate and therefore much easier to clearly separate

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Originally Posted by Sjol

In terms of actions, though, ARC to SMN mostly stays the same as you level up. SCH actually loses ARC abilities when you add the job stone. I find ARC to SCH really jarring actually. I also agree with the other poster about the faeries being separate and therefore much easier to clearly separate

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Before I continue, may I ask when you started playing FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by rawker

Before I continue, may I ask when you started playing FFXIV?

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ShB

My point about the abilities is that if you look at the tooltip in the Actions dialog, you'll see that most of the low-level SMN ones also list ARC, but the low-level SCH ones don't. SCH's kit isn't built off of ARC, but SMN's is.

I see. Thanks for answering that.

Here's how I see it. If you are familiar with object-oriented programming, imagine that Arcanist is an independent class. As an independent class, it has all the methods and variables of its own. In the case of Arcanist, I will refer to it as ACN from now on(not to confuse with a company with the same shortname), it was the pets. These pets used to have HP bars, gain enmity, have their own set of behaviors you can toggle, abilities and actions all compiled in a pet hotbar.

Now we have Scholar (SCH) and Summoner (SMN). They inherited from Arcanist... One can argue that polymorphism is at play as we have Egis and Fey, which had different implementations of the summon method. Now, SMN and SCH, while both sharing the base methods and variables with ACN, they also have their own set of variables and methods.

Base classes can be complete, with very minor tweaks/improvements, and that new functionalities, esp if these functionalities does not coincide with the base class can be done with the dependent classes. In this case, the pet system in ACN class could have been left as it is and improved upon, then any ability and action must be placed on SMN and SCH.. So the argument on the tooltip is normal and justified.

Now onto the problem....

SE did not stand their ground on the pet system. Instead of approaching the issues head on, we got EW SMN which is the absolute worst decision they have ever made.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I see. Thanks for answering that.

Here's how I see it. If you are familiar with object-oriented programming...

...snip...

Now we have Scholar (SCH) and Summoner (SMN). They inherited from Arcanist... One can argue that polymorphism is at play as we have Egis and Fey, which had different implementations of the summon method. Now, SMN and SCH, while both sharing the base methods and variables with ACN, they also have their own set of variables and methods.

...snip..

Now onto the problem....

SE did not stand their ground on the pet system. Instead of approaching the issues head on, we got EW SMN which is the absolute worst decision they have ever made.

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I've been a developer for a long time, and, yes, I'm familiar with OOA/OOD, but I doubt they would be implemented that way since you would want the whole thing to be as data-driven as possible. You would want the job designers to add and remove abilities, set their levels and potencies themselves.

But I would also argue that the backend implementation doesn't matter as much as what makes sense from job designer perspective. Clearly given the way they split where the abilities go, ACN is more closely aligned to SMN than SCH with fewer abilities changing between the class and job in the ACN => SMN transition. Though, that is only a today issue. Redesigns of the class and jobs could completely flip that in the future.

With regards to SMN and pets and SE folding, I think that's a strong claim. I understand that you don't like the current incarnation of SMN but to claim it's the worst decision SE has ever made, I think is a stretch. And with regards to them not holding their ground, I don't even know what to make of that as I'm sure there were people in SE on both sides of the issue and the side arguing for the removal of pets won out for now. It's even possible they took out pet logic because they wanted Beastmaster to be more special. We simply don't know.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I would argue that Scholar should be the one split off. Summoner follows more obviously from arcanist, as a DPS using summoned arcane creatures as a focus. Scholar branches off into healing instead.

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Actually I think I will revise my suggestion and agree with you. I think I misremembered job quests and thought the Nym stuff appeared earlier in the 1-30 quests.

So I would propose Scholar and Ninja be split off into level 30 "expansion" jobs with no associated classes, and Rogue reworked into its own thing.