Red Mages 6.5 Job Adjustment feels Insulting

I cant wait until ver-raise and summoner rez are removed so RDM/SMN can have the same DPS as BLM and then we get 100 threads complaining about ver-raise being removed.
I would hope RDM can be more support based at least, but we know what's most likely to happen. (if something does change)

Edit:
Just to add, I really hope we have more room for "support dps" and utility on tanks, varity is nice but it feels like DMG will always currently be the more appealing aspect of all roles, even if its only a tiny amount.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rychu

Honestly Valence, despite all of my shitting on the current balance around my main's DPS, I actually would not be opposed to Red Mage being more support oriented. The problem is that they want their cake and eat it too. If I am a support caster then give me support skills worth having low dps for.

IDK if anyone else saw that one post about what could be changed about all of Red Mages kit where they proposed a dance partner-like skill called white pledge and black pledge. You attached white pledge to a healer and a black pledge to a dps and you automatically boost their healing/dps in a way that also generates mana for the RDM. That would be cool as fuck.

I will always love Red Mage, but I switched to Summoner this Savage tier because even the fight designs dont care about Red Mages. There were more than one instance in p12s where the 2 minute burst came up during mechanics that keeps the caster away from the boss, and my damage does not warrant having a pf group readjust just for me. I fucking hate it here.

---

What kind of support do you want anyway? Look at us rPhys, it's the best support of all DPS roles, but what does it exactly bring us? Nothing. Lower skilled players don't use them well or at all where it could actually help them, and higher skilled parties just laugh at how useless they are. As I said, support roles (healers/tanks) already have way enough to keep parties alive. Healing and mitigation is a joke. MP support is not even needed anymore.

So, in the current battle system, again, what support do you exactly want? ( I'd love to get a lot more support, provided the battle system actually made it RELEVANT, which is not the case right now, healing is just in a pitiful state, there is nothing to heal, just big damage occasionally that you solve by popping OGCDs, that you have aplenty for )

Now then, I like that pledge idea, and it's actually a cool design, but the only thing that matters is the black one, because that's where the party damage lies. Nobody cares about healing or mitigation, it's just the icing on the cake. In fact, fights aren't even designed with this in mind because in your idea RDM would be the only caster providing it, which means fights would have to be balanced around having a caster or more not having access to it. And then we would also go back to the crux of the matter with the devs telling red mages "sorry your overall party damage has to be lacklustre because you have that white pledge support option".

As long as the battle system remains as it is, and people continue to consider that support has to be balanced with party dps contribution, then we'll always have a fundamental problem, because non damage support is not competitive at all with party damage support, not even in the slightest, and yes, it's sad, but it's the current battle system we get since shb.

I'm sorry if this feels cynical, but I guess I've been there for 2 expansions now already, and it feels like a shit sandwich.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

As long as the battle system remains as it is, and people continue to consider that support has to be balanced with party dps contribution, then we'll always have a fundamental problem

---

I feel that a lot of people come up with (sometimes really cool) concepts for how their jobs can become more interesting, but ultimately, as long as the encounter design, damage profile and the 2min meta remains as it is, it won't really be possible to think outside of the box. Ironically, the job that actually does that ends up becoming 'Limited".

Reminds me when people ask for AST cards bringing different effects once more. But cards had a problem back then because it had a most desired effect, kind of how Minor Arcana is today. And then there's the idea of non-offensive effects alongside the damage, but what gives... if non-damage support is so pointless most of the time other than "week 1" (given everything else we have), it will become just irrelevant fluff.

The sad part of the old cards is not only that, but also that the actual design of the job already accounted for junk cards which were designed for the royal road burner. Spire/Ewer especially, which were the ones providing the spread effect. Odd, isn't it?

If one wants to bring the old cards, the solution is actually relatively simple. Create two decks, on dedicated for damage cards, and one for support cards. And since it's astrologian we're talking about, I want to be able to hold more than one stupid card in my hand? Let me build up a deck, which would also incidentally allow me if I play right to control the card rng and feel good about it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I'm sorry if this feels cynical, but I guess I've been there for 2 expansions now already, and it feels like a shit sandwich.

---

Nah bud I totally get where you are coming from. Honestly the idea of being a better support in my head, also comes along with fight design that is less body checks and more mitigate-able damage for savage level content. The most recent raid tier has made me almost completely given up on support being a factor in any form of value since most raidwide damage can be survived with like two mitigation skills. Yeah idk either man, I'm just a little jaded at the current state of job balance and design.

As someone who plays both rdm and smn, here is some added salt.

Summoner technically has melee phases until you hit 90. How? Well for Topaz Carbuncle/Egi-Titan and Ruby Carbuncle/Egi-Ifrit the actual summon itself actually takes awhile lazily wandering over to their target the further away you are from the boss. But once they reach their target the actual damage "spell" they do is instant. So if you want to optimize that aspect, you play summoner as though its like a red mage and treat those as "melee phases". Emerald Carbuncle / Garuda is the only aspect that still maintains the same cast time from the time you get to 90. The ARR through SHB quirk for the egis is from their prior iteration where as pets they were more like glorified unattackable dots.

Similarly at level 80 is phoenix's aoe hot for the party, Everlasting Flight, its a 15y radius which is half the range of Searing Light and the best way to usually get most people is to summon phoenix over by the boss as it will result in the most party members getting healed. Also becomes the only aspect that at 90 requires the summoner to be closer to melee range outside of ifrit's boons. Also used to be Searing Light also required a similar strat until it got buffed to be a 30y radius, as beforehand it was possible to exclude the party tank from a searing light if they leaped to boss far enough to initiate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Summoner technically has melee phases until you hit 90.

---

No. Topaz Carbuncle, Ruby Carbuncle, Titan-Egi, and Ifrit-Egi do not require you to be in melee range. You can use them from long range without losing any casts. You get aspect stacks immediately on cast, not after impact. This is not the same as having a melee phase, where RDM can't leave melee range without losing casts.

To be fair, I think Titan and Ifrit Egis could do with a QoL change where they do their attacks from a distance like Garuda does. I have found that it does make them slightly unwieldy and makes me miss Radiant Aegis uses because I summoned them from far away. It also has problems with AoE where the Egi wants to be only just in range of the target, and so ends up using the attack on half the group rather than having it cast around the center of the group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

No. Topaz Carbuncle, Ruby Carbuncle, Titan-Egi, and Ifrit-Egi do not require you to be in melee range. You can use them from long range without losing any casts. You get aspect stacks immediately on cast, not after impact. This is not the same as having a melee phase, where RDM can't leave melee range without losing casts.

---

You didn't read what I typed. Do you see this version of Ifrit?

https://i.imgur.com/S7uhBAz.png

It still slowly wanders over to its target if you cast it from a far enough distance. As its still a hold over from its old pet Ai prior to endwalker. As old Ifrit-Egi is a melee pet, which the current version of summoner uses, is a melee pet. It only performs its hellfire upon reaching its destination.

I am not talking about its level 90 version. Same applies to smaller ARR version of titan egi, topaz carbuncle, and ruby carbuncle which are all still coded as their melee pet variants before endwalker. So the fastest way to get them to perform their abilities upon summon, is to be in melee range. This only changes when you reach level 90.

Eh, its half true and half untrue. I get what you mean Chasing but Rongway is also right. You do not have to press your egi buttons within melee range, they will spawn and waltz over and hit the target regardless. But it is optimal to do so just in case the enemy you are fighting is about to die.

The part that I am leaning more towards Rongway's way of thinking is that it doesn't require you to be in melee range. You can press it from 15 lalafells away and your egis will still do their thing, and if the thing you are fighting dies while they are walking over...well then who cares it died anyways. Red Mage does not have that flexibility, I can't just decide to that I want to cast my sword combo and let their be a delay before it hits the target. I have to be in melee range and deal with the risk involved there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rychu

Eh, its half true and half untrue. I get what you mean Chasing but Rongway is also right. You do not have to press your egi buttons within melee range, they will spawn and waltz over and hit the target regardless. But it is optimal to do so just in case the enemy you are fighting is about to die.

The part that I am leaning more towards Rongway's way of thinking is that it doesn't require you to be in melee range. You can press it from 15 lalafells away and your egis will still do their thing, and if the thing you are fighting dies while they are walking over...well then who cares it died anyways. Red Mage does not have that flexibility, I can't just decide to that I want to cast my sword combo and let their be a delay before it hits the target. I have to be in melee range and deal with the risk involved there.

---

That is why I called it "technically melee phase" originally. As a summoner that isn't 90, has different positioning than one that is 90.

As what I described with the smaller summons, and phoenix with its 15y radius for its heal over time, are overlooked quirks about summoner's positioning. Where it seems to overperform in lower level content compared to at max level where its more middle of the pack, yet lacking the gem boons as its level 90 version.

And its not just about if the enemy is about to die, its possible to miss out on damage with them if a boss becomes untargetable. Which is something you still have to deal with at level 90. As unlike the bigger summon counterparts, the smaller ones have a very short cast animation making it more likely to squeeze in damage. And the best way to optimize that is being in melee range. And the further you cast it away from, the smaller the window is to get that damage in.

And also right. The risk involved with red mage, is also the human error on the part of your allies. If your healers or a tank dies on accident, the red mage is expected to drop their melee into casting combo and help their teammates, even if it hurts their own dps. Level 90 summoner has something like that, in the form of Ifrit's boons, where you may potentially get hit by the boss or you have to lose potential gcds when waiting to use Crimson Cyclone and Crimson Rush, which is a mini melee phase for summoner.

RDM discussion threads always just turn into SMN discussion threads.

Mobility and Raise and all that is nice, but the real issue is the damage. It's what is selected for over any other attribute when picking group members.

Go play RDM for a few runs and tell me you aren't working your butt off with juggling procs/swiftcast/accel/etc only to get out-done by a SMN with a rotation so braindead you could teach it to a goldfish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eremite

RDM discussion threads always just turn into SMN discussion threads.

Mobility and Raise and all that is nice, but the real issue is the damage. It's what is selected for over any other attribute when picking group members.

Go play RDM for a few runs and tell me you aren't working your butt off with juggling procs/swiftcast/accel/etc only to get out-done by a SMN with a rotation so braindead you could teach it to a goldfish.

---

Yep I notice that too....and yep you are also correct on that last part too *cries in red mage*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eremite

RDM discussion threads always just turn into SMN discussion threads.

Mobility and Raise and all that is nice, but the real issue is the damage. It's what is selected for over any other attribute when picking group members.

Go play RDM for a few runs and tell me you aren't working your butt off with juggling procs/swiftcast/accel/etc only to get out-done by a SMN with a rotation so braindead you could teach it to a goldfish.

---

I think it’s hard to avoid that because SMN is the job that’s unbalancing the casters, RDM has been too weak for the majority of EW but it’s only because of SMN; if SMN was old SMN and sat in between BLM and RDM I don’t think anyone would complain

Old Summoner you could have argued to be roughly equal to BLM in damage I don't think it would have been considered outlandish.