The Tragedy about Manderville vs Brilliant Relics

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

You had way too much fun with this.

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https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m...qqfoo1_500.gif
I don't know what you're talking about

this is unrelated to the thread but those screenshots made me laugh

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

this is unrelated to the thread but those screenshots made me laugh

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I've been trying to have fun with the posts where I'm OP.
Made me smile to read you got a chuckle out of them!

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

[...]One of these, is engaging. And the other one is not.

This is the tragedy of Endwalker's Relics. They know how to make a good and engaging relic grind. They just chose not to do it for our combat relics this time.[...]

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Hello Mirror :eek: is that you?! 'Cause I've been thinking a similar train of thoughts myself in past few days!

...ahem

I'm a player who has been avoiding DoH/L relics entirely 'cause I know how very unlikely I would enjoy poking nodes/macro crafting vs doing combat things. It kept me away from the shinies until last week when I first started doing DoH Splendors.

I kid you not, it spurs my brain to write the macro (if I want/bother to), calculate how much HQ mats I want from each steps (I went the lazy way and do 0 HQs on step 2; that bites me on my a$$ lol), and then even consider if I even want to leave it entirely on macro because I have $h!tty internet that often ghosts craft macro steps whenever they feel like to.

Is it fulfilling? Yes.
Do I wanna glam it over? Probably, I kinda dislike they don't make my off-hands glow though.
Do I enjoy it? Probably not so much, but it's definitely more than tomestone weapon v2.0.

Cleared all the crafter's two days ago. Now working on the gatherer's. I enjoy it far less vs DoH's, but lmao again, it's still better than Manderville. (I can't believe I have come to the point where I'd admit doing DoH/L relics would be more enjoyable vs the combat relic in the same expac.)

At this rate I might even visit the Skysung Relics from ShB... :shudder:

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

https://imgur.com/27aQuut.png

Preface:
All my Combat Jobs are 90 and I'm an Omnicrafter.

https://imgur.com/MCaTask.png

Manderville:
- Do whatever for tomes
- Trade tomes for whatever and upgr-
https://imgur.com/x3rNuuF.png

Crystalline/Brilliant
- Bunch of different specific Materials are needed
- Take notes to know how many of each mat I'll need
- Which ones do I wanna buy?
- Which ones do I wanna gather?
- I get to play both my gatherers
- Visit a bunch of places across the game
- Some mats are only available from Bicolor Gemstones
- Gemstones require engagement with FATEs
- I get to play with my Combat Jobs
- Hand craft all mats to HQ manually
- Get max yield from perfect crafts
- Help Grenoldt and Mowen get together while assisting the lovely Chora-Zoi improve her craft!

One of these, is engaging. And the other one is not.

https://imgur.com/se3QUzU.png

This is the tragedy of Endwalker's Relics. They know how to make a good and engaging relic grind. They just chose not to do it for our combat relics this time.

Imagine if Crafter Relics were "Oh just get 1500 Purple Crafter Scrips for every step"

...

DON'T DO THAT, FOR THE LOVE OF HYDAELYN, I WILL END YOU
https://media.tenor.com/A91qMB3v3xUA...tinkerbell.gif

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People complained for years because" too hard, too grindy, it takes my sub time instead of ERP, please nerf"

Now everyone can get it without any kind of effort and probably will stay like this on the next exp too.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Using a weapon glam you think is ugly is kind of a self own but with ulti glams it really is about showing off for many people. Something that old style relic enjoyers on here have by and large rejected in my experience.

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Pretty much this. It's about showing off. Doesn't matter if it looks good. It's about flexing your accomplishment. Older relics are the same.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

-snip-

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I didn't become an Omni until EW, but yeah: DoH Grinds are a bit different and heavy. I guess it's not just even how long the grind is or isn't, but what you're doing to complete it. I guess just going all over the place getting different kinds of materials and working towards the goal feels engaging to me.

As for the Skysteel Tools? You'd probable ace them rather easily just because of how OP your gear would be compared to the level of those old quests.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

People complained "it takes my sub time instead of ERP"

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https://media.tenor.com/i5goem4YHl8A...-out-gross.gif

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

probably will stay like this on the next exp too

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Yeah, probably.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

but I sometimes get the feeling that some of you have never played an actual terrible game.

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Patently untrue. Everyone here has played FF14.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

There's games out there that are truly awful. Licensed games during the PS2 era were a fine example. Then there's games like Kinect's Sonic Free Riders which barely worked at a mechanical level. Have you ever heard of Animal Soccer World on PS2 or Snow White and the Seven Clever Boys? Earlier I mentioned Drake Of The 99 Dragons, and I could go on. Life of Black Tiger on PS4, The Last Hope: Dead Zone Survival on Switch, the crapload tons of shovelware on the Wii, etc.

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Now add FF14, WoW, New World, ESO etc. to that list.

you cant say the flu isn't bad because cancer exists.

your trying to stat this game is good or bad objectively when that is an impossible statement, its a matter of subjectivity..

if you play for 2 hours a week super casual you can definitely say this game is perfect for you..
but if you are a gamer that wants a game to put 60+ hours in to a month then this game will let you down wholeheartedly.

the defense of this game always boils down to "dont play it too much, go play other games" well we are not talking about other games, this is the one i PAID for. when square starts letting me pay for my sub in hours versus months we can talk that game, but there is not a month worth of content in this game at endgame.

sure you like it, mostlikely because you like to socialize with your friends in game, not the actual game its self, or you love the story that was 4 installments of 70$ plus base game cost..

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

you cant say the flu isn't bad because cancer exists.

your trying to stat this game is good or bad objectively when that is an impossible statement, its a matter of subjectivity..

if you play for 2 hours a week super casual you can definitely say this game is perfect for you..
but if you are a gamer that wants a game to put 60+ hours in to a month then this game will let you down wholeheartedly.

the defense of this game always boils down to "dont play it too much, go play other games" well we are not talking about other games, this is the one i PAID for. when square starts letting me pay for my sub in hours versus months we can talk that game, but there is not a month worth of content in this game at endgame.

sure you like it, mostlikely because you like to socialize with your friends in game, not the actual game its self, or you love the story that was 4 installments of 70$ plus base game cost..

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This is going a bit off topic, as we were specifically discussing relics. I don't want the thread to get derailed, but I don't mind giving a short answer. You seem reasonable.

Comparing XIV to barely functional games at a mere basic mechanical level (such as some of the ones I mentioned) makes very little sense to me. Same for comparing graphics, presentation, music and a few other things that are really good in XIV versus those games. As to the playable contents of the game itself... what each person likes matters a lot, and in that sense I try to don't tell people what to like or not like about the playable sections of XIV. I myself like stuff (a lot of stuff, not just the social aspect), and I dislike stuff. I'm currently trying to put a good word for the game in a thread I made about a problem I have with it. I hope that dichotomy speaks for itself. I try to think I'm a reasonable person, or at least I promise I try.

I don't really have a "defense" for the game as a whole. I love it, but I know there's things that could be better, so I think conversation about those things is always good. It's why I've mentioned frequent surveys would be nice as a way for the devs to directly talk to us and get specific feedback in return. I mentioned this in another post, but I've filled about 4 surveys in sixish months of playing Star Rail. The only survey for XIV I've ever answered was the 10th Anniversary one, because I don't remember them ever sending out any other. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That said, I think the vitriol from both sides in XIV goes a bit overboard for no reason way too often... people are either "haters" for bringing up criticism, or "shills" if they're genuinely having a good time and just bring up positive stuff. It's very hard to have a real convo if those are the only two extremes. In the same vein: Comparing XIV to Life of Black Tiger is just absurd. I get what you're saying with the flu comparison, but I don't think it works too well here.

Anyway, as I said: I don't wanna derail the topic. I respect your point of view, and I hope what I said made sense, even if you don't totally agree with me.

Cheers!

Ye I agree, it's pretty goddamn lame. Going from a journey to reforge/awaken a weapon bordering on the mythical to what feels like going to the store and paying 30 bucks is really underwhelming.

I was just expecting (hoping for, after seeing the 2nd step) something other than roulette/hunt spam, man, we already do that more than enough. How are you going to tie a relic to something as out there as Hildibrand and have its steps be some tacked on tomestone farming for 4 times in a row?

I've been doing a DoH step or two every week to not burn myself out, I'm the kinda person who will absolutely farm a few thousand mats and then sit and manually HQ them all so I'm trying to be kind to myself and spread them out lol DoL got done fully each time in an evening though.

As for engagement, this is purely my own feelings and of course everyone's experience is different, I enjoy the combat ones more even if they're not as "prestigous" in their method of acquisition. Even if it's just tome farming I enjoy combat more than parking my butt down and listening to a youtube vod while pushing roughly the same buttons in my FC. I will say I don't like the RNG in the expert recipes because it always struck me as artificial difficulty. It does add some spice to the crafting tedium but I'd rather have some other method of challenge beyond randomness (also can we have a cooler storyline for these tools please?)

I have pretty distinct memories of doing every relic grind prior to EW. I’m not going to lie and say every moment of those experiences was good, but damn I am thankful I have those memories.

It is pathetic that the only memory of a Manderville weapon will be that moment I randomly checked my currency tab and saw I was over 1500 tomes.

Just another example of the design philosophy I completely despise the most about Final Fantasy XIV since Shadowbringers.
Neuter any and everything possible for PvE content, the playable part of the game that SHOULD have been the deepest and most engaging, and make all the content that in any other Final Fantasy would be considered "extra" or "sidequest" the more involved and time-consuming part.
Optional dungeons? Exploratory Zones? Relics that target people who actually like grinding with their jobs? Nah, have... ocean fucking fishing, island sanctuary, gposer garbage and if you're lucky some content for crafters and gatherers instead.

Mao sees little difference between Brilliant gathering tools and Manderville weapons. Both took Mao abouts same amount time to complete a stage and both just required collectings lots of things. In the end, the only thing Mao cares abouts is if Mao can gets while tool or weapon still useful and how good weapon or tool looks because in the end, once 7.0 comes out, the first green gears that is gets will outclass relics easily.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

I will say I don't like the RNG in the expert recipes because it always struck me as artifical difficulty.

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RNG has me a bit worried for last stage. RNG is one of the big reasons why I've never done a serious attempt at the fishing collection. Some fish require insane luck.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Mao sees little difference between Brilliant gathering tools and Manderville weapons. Both took Mao abouts same amount time to complete a stage and both just required collectings lots of things. In the end, the only thing Mao cares abouts is if Mao can gets while tool or weapon still useful and how good weapon or tool looks because in the end, once 7.0 comes out, the first green gears that is gets will outclass relics easily.

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Always good to see Mao!
In all honesty seeing the more carefree approach is making me wish I just did that instead...

It's a case of "people asked for it" and now we have to suffer.

When I was forced to play through it (again) it dawned on me that the only character I like from the manderville quests is greg and without him this has been just the same single unfunny joke told again and again since before arr.

I don't care about the work required but I just go through these new quests and compared to eureka and bozja it's like... who cares. This isn't important or relevant. Nobody's here to save anyone and we're just here to watch an ancient engine make broken facial expressions like its a 2014 source film maker yt poop

"Look she mentioned the bombs again and his head is in the ground. Again. Please laugh."

Guessing you haven't done the fishing relic yet? Nothing difficult about it at all.

Not sure if I will do any others. Maybe gathering, but my maxed and melded crafters haven't been used since early in the expansion.

Starting pre-HW an quitting and returning mid StB I skipped or never had time for a lot of the older relics.. I did start some and worked a few once I was current with Euerka and so..

But being current in ShB it was nice having the quests from Bozja, grinding out my first full relic mostly inside of the zone itself was fun and seeing everyone showing off and linking the weapons so people could see them was great.. then having the option to have multiple of the quests in the journal to work on other weapons passively with roulettes and just idle messing around made it easy to get more weapons done.. it seemed like the perfect cross between grind able and passive relic farming..

Here in EW I don't feel the weapons have any impact.. theyre weaker then raid weapons and everyone can just drop the 1500 tomes for them an that's it.. there's no active activity for players to busy themselves and the passive grinding isn't really there either.. you have to actively use a level capped chr to get the tomes so leveling alt jobs won't let you earn the tomes.. it makes you chose between a relic or exp.. limiting what you can do while earning the relic.. ive gotten my main class relic and that's it.. leveling other jobs has been more important to me and since I can earn the tomes from leveling there's no real way to get more currently.. there's no players sharing the weapons in chat as they get them.. there's no real excitement over these weapons.. its a disappointment to grinders and casual players.. the only ones who seem happy with this are the players who play 1 job only and only do dailies before changing games.. those that see ff14 more as a chore then something to have fun playing..

Hopefully SE returns to the Bozja format for relics giving players options to earn weapons in different ways for their playstyle because this current version isn't the correct one.. not by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I actually really hate the crafting relics. I made one and I lost interest in doing anymore. Decided I'd wait for possible cheese opportunities from future expansion changes. If that never happens then so be it, I'm not all that interested in these relics because the grind pushes me away.

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And that is completely fine. The content just isn't for your tastes then. Not every piece of content has to be for everyone :)

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Judging from most of the posts in here and in previous threads complaining about it, the reasons really come out to a pretty thinly veiled complaint that too many people have a relic.
That the value only comes form fewer people owning one, and too many people earning it too fast somehow cheapens your experience and the worth of your item.
It's complete nonsense to me, you aren't "earning" anything more by doing 11 runs of syrcus tower in DF than the person doing hunt trains to get the tomes for the new relics.
60 runs of alexander isn't somehow more compelling than 2 days of roulettes or somehow takes more skill or effort.

It's that when the grind isn't abysmally boring and frustrating to do, more people do it and your shiny weapons aren't special anymore.
They never were special though, they're just a glowy weapon that looks kinda cool and is BiS for ultimate.

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That is because SE lacks any kind of imagination. What if one of the steps required you to complete a route of the newest variant dungeon solo without taking a single vulnerability stack from a boss.

It gives players a challenge for one of the steps, you get to use your full PvE kit, gives life to the newest content in the game and a reason to run it, and you'll only have to run it once vs 15 times of syrcus tower!

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

- Bunch of different specific Materials are needed
- Take notes to know how many of each mat I'll need
- Which ones do I wanna buy?
- Which ones do I wanna gather?
- I get to play both my gatherers
- Visit a bunch of places across the game
- Some mats are only available from Bicolor Gemstones
- Gemstones require engagement with FATEs
- I get to play with my Combat Jobs
- Hand craft all mats to HQ manually
- Get max yield from perfect crafts

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I'm glad you like this but to me that sounds awful. I'm not a fan of the "tomestone-only" approach that EW's Relics have, but if I had to choose between what you're describing and grinding 1.5k tomestones, I'll take the tomestone grind because it sounds more enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

Hopefully SE returns to the Bozja format for relics giving players options to earn weapons in different ways for their playstyle because this current version isn't the correct one.. not by a long shot.

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There's no reason a relic questline needs to be tied to an exploratory zone. And even if you can get updates outside Bozja, the story is still tied to it. You might consider going and doing anima from HW. That is a good example of a questline with a story that stands on its own and still has that balance between grindable and passive relic farming.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

https://64.media.tumblr.com/5111e033...fa5qo1_500.gif

So... I'm trying to make a real post about something that can be improved, but I sometimes get the feeling that some of you have never played an actual terrible game. Maybe you should go play Drake Of The 99 Dragons if you think XIV is a "dumpster fire" for real.

Hard to take you seriously when you phrase and frame your "contribution" like that... but you do you, I guess.

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yikes? they were just trying to agree with you and you attack them because you didnt like HOW? makes it hard for me to empathise now incase i step on some eggshell

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I actually really hate the crafting relics. I made one and I lost interest in doing anymore. Decided I'd wait for possible cheese opportunities from future expansion changes. If that never happens then so be it, I'm not all that interested in these relics because the grind pushes me away.

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So basically waiting until we get level 100 crafters so you can spam Trained Eye? You can do that for all of the past crafter relics too, aside from the last step. The last step is an expert recipe if I remember right.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

So basically waiting until we get level 100 crafters so you can spam Trained Eye? You can do that for all of the past crafter relics too, aside from the last step. The last step is an expert recipe if I remember right.

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Yea. But you can brute force it anyway, with a macro. However, that was with penta-indagator gear. And I think it would be 90 (cap your crafters in DT), Trained Eye just needs 10lvl difference to be available. That's if you want these ones as glam, I guess.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Yea. But you can brute force it anyway, with a macro. However, that was with penta-indagator gear. And I think it would be 90 (cap your crafters in DT), Trained Eye just needs 10lvl difference to be available. That's if you want these ones as glam, I guess.

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Or achievements. They're 20 points a step I believe.

Which is more self-centered and entitled?
A. Player who wishes the game would continue to offer different rewards for different levels of commitment in game content or
B. Player who thinks every content should require only the level of commitment THEY can put, because any and every reward they have their eyes on should be theirs no matter what

If your answer is A then I can only imagine you would prefer savage gear was easily obtained without doing savage at all too

To explain in a way entitled carebears "evewyone should have wewics" understand:
In Endwalker if the relics were a lot more time consuming and not just poetic handovers, and you complained they're too grindy, anyone else could just tell you "then go do other content", because you have no shortage of quick "no time" content to do.
The situation right now is reversed. Someone who wanted lasting grinding or more social pve content, they complain the EW relics don't provide any of that. You tell then "then go do other content"... Except there isn't any.

You have no right to tell people they're not in the right to be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

yikes? they were just trying to agree with you and you attack them because you didnt like HOW? makes it hard for me to empathise now incase i step on some eggshell

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Because it's the kind of "agreement" that adds nothing to the discussion and just the same old "rant"?

Like, if I made a post saying "I think the game has this flaw and be better if they do this, what do you think?" to start a discussion. Then another person come over and reply "YEAH YEAH, YOU'RE SO RIGHT, THIS GAME SUCK SO FREAKING BAD! OMG IT'S DYING WHY WE'RE EVEN HERE!". Then yeah, I probably gonna tell that person to go pound sand as well, even if technically they agree with what I said.

Believe it or not, some people are more interested in having a proper discussion then seeking validation in an echo chamber. And reason why proper discussion is so hard to come across because people are more interested in beating a deadhorse.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

yikes? they were just trying to agree with you and you attack them because you didnt like HOW? makes it hard for me to empathise now incase i step on some eggshell

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First: They weren't trying to agree with me, they called the game a "dumpster fire" which I never said and has nothing to do with my thread.
Second: I didn't attack them, I simply called them out because... look above.
Third: Ath came back and simply commented about XIV requiring more Midcore content, to which I agreed and we just ended our interaction in peace and moved on.
Fourth: Whether you empathize or not is irrelevant to me. You're entitled to whatever personal opinion you may have about the relics. That's the point of a good discussion. Plenty of people have chimed in with a bunch of different points of view. Some agreed, some didn't. Most people in the thread have remained respectful, regardless of how opposite some takes have been, and I appreciate that. I've tried to do the same.

I know some people in these forums seem to love to antagonize each other, but I couldn't care less about that. I propose a thread, chime in (or don't), and hopefully we can share genuine takes that the devs may see instead of using hyperbolic language that doesn't really contribute anything. If you can vibe with that, cool. If not... I don't know what else to tell you.

https://imgur.com/aEdUYvW.png

I mean the engagement metric is such a silly one to use in this case, if you follow that narrative then make it so you just have to talk to an NPC to get your free relic every major patch and they'll have their engagement metric sky rocket.

I just can't understand how they managed to come to the conclusion that more engagement at the cost of entertainment was a good thing.

I remember the ARR relic vividly, it was Grundy hard fun and I loved it as it filled the content void like a champ. HW relic was ok, not as intense but still a good journey. The HW WHM cane is still my current glam. SB and ShB were less memorable though I loved the NM train in Anemos, best social relic quest ever. ShB was ok, optional route was handy when I had rotten luck. Then there is the vendor relic… err tome weapon, calling it a relic is an insult in my opinion.

gathering 200 thingies or crafting x pther things isn't very engaging, it's easy but just boring. How fun is it to click a node over and over? Or buying mats and hit two macros? I take roulettes over that.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I remember the ARR relic vividly, it was Grundy hard fun and I loved it as it filled the content void like a champ.

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ARR relic was downright masochistic. Nine books, killing random mobs, waiting and waiting for queue for specific dungeons to pop and as well as specific fates is your idea of fun? Then farm light doing the same few dungeons over and over? At least today we can speed run most of this ARR nonsense.

Just like some others in the thread, I remember my experience with past relic grinds quite fondly even though I only did ARR and HWs during ShB/EW.
For ARR's I remember chatting to friends while doing the books/light farm whenever I felt the urge to. Having a good time chatting with others also working on their HW relics during the light farm and victory laps in PFs. SB's I actually did when it was current, I loved every moment of Eureka trains, everybody screaming in shout chat after getting flashbanged by Pagos heatwaves, THE TRAIN IS DEAD LONG LIVE THE CHAIN, every god damn moment was fun. BA is also extremely fun. ShB's was a nice upgrade from SB's, I did it entirely in Bozja as well. CLL, DR and Dal are probably my favorite pieces of content in the game. Also Red Chocobo, love that fella.
I don't even know what EW relics I have.

Ultimately I think there's one key thing all these relics have that EW's is sorely lacking, and that's a sense of community. I wish I had been able to do ARR/HW's when they were current, but at the very least with SB/ShB's they actually made the MMO FEEL like an MMO. I enjoy a big grind, but doing it with others can make even the worst steps enjoyable. While I do enjoy Hildibrand on it's own, they really don't feel like relics. I don't feel like I'm working towards the same goal as others when I queue into a roulette, I'm not having fun running whatever the roulette picks since I've done it all hundreds of times for the past 6 years.

I forgot how engaging it used to be farming a trial over and over again for lights. Real pinnacle of engagment there. Or better yet! Farming Fates for random drops (and before anyone talks about how 'engaging' bozja/eureka were, that's essentially all you were doing, fate farming for most of it just in a different area). Definitely the developments best work. I wont defend what they did now, but lets not pretend previous stuff was honestly great either. At least if I want to get tomes, I can do pvp or almost anything else for them.

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

gathering 200 thingies or crafting x pther things isn't very engaging, it's easy but just boring. How fun is it to click a node over? Or buying mats and his two macros? I take roulettes over that.

ARR relic was downright masochistic. Nine books, killing random mobs, waiting and waiting for queue for specific dungeons to pop and as well as specific fates is your idea of fun? Then farm light doing the same few dungeons over and over? At least today we can speed run most of this ARR nonsense.

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Not sure you were there but when it was on content, but when it was released, it was spread out over 5 patches and it was not as bad as you may think. You had 3 months to do each step so it was very manageable and I eventually ended up doing 3 full relics while I helped friends do theirs.

I quite honestly like the fact that relics are tied to Tier 2 tomes but I wish CBU3 went about it differently.

They could have easily put a relic mat on each individual roulette as part of the process which would get people in there and help players that needed them.

And still had roughly the same result as it is now.

People complained ARR relic was to RNG.
People complained the Heavensward relic had too many objectives.
People complained Eureka was boring and grindy.
People complained Bozja forced you to do long instances with pointless actions

They were all engaging in different ways, but the playerbase complained, and so they were given what they wanted this time.

You can have a fun engaging relic, but the majority of players don't want it. They want fast and easy.